Bikes With Short Top Tubes and High Front Ends - WAS:Interpreting Serotta Fit Cycle Data For Other Manufacturers?

Steve Sr. wrote:

Can anyone offer any other possibilities for similar TI bikes that
have this characteristic geometry?

Without addressing the plausibility of your fit data, why not have a
custom Ti frame built? Habanero, a popular favorite on this board, can
do it for you very reasonably. Roark Cycles in Brownsburg, Indiana did
a fabulous job for me. Nice people, impeccable workmanship, and
direct-to-consumer pricing. But before I signed the order I'd have
another fit done and be really confident the fitter understands your
goals and abilities as well as dimensions. Hope this is helpful.

Fred Roses

I was originally looking at TI bikes which led me to Serotta and
Litespeed and ruled out the carbon Trek Pilot. It looks like a stock
Litespeed is probably out unless a Siena can be made to fit but the
front end might not be tall enough. The Serotta Fierte looks like it
might be a possibility in a 54S although the seat tube is a little
short

Can anyone offer any other possibilities for similar TI bikes that
have this characteristic geometry?

Of course, the dumb question that comes to mind is, given that fit trumps
just about everything else, why does the bike need to be made of Titanium?
If it's an aesthetic issue, fine... whatever it takes to make somebody want
to ride more. But great frames can be made of steel, ti, aluminum or carbon.
If the Trek Pilot series fits, you ought to try one and see how it goes. And
not just because it's a Trek (a disclaimer that I have to make, particularly
since we're the largest Trek carbon dealer in the country). If it's the
theoretically-correct fit, it's worth trying if for no other reason that to
see how the fit feels for the custom Ti bike it sounds like you might have
to have made.

By the way, doesn't Serotta make an extension tube that essentially
lengthens the headtube, raising the front end? It's not a cheap piece of
hardware, but I believe it can be used on a number of frames.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Steve Sr." wrote in message
...
The Previous thread was getting long and I think it is time to bend it
in a slightly different direction. Thanks to everyone who responded
and especially to Jay.

I went back to the person who did the fit and asked some more
questions about the data. For the conventional frame Fit Cycle here
are the ideal frame measurments:

Seat Tube = 55cm.

Top Tube = 55cm (but that resulted in a 70mm stem which is no good).
So the top tube should be 53cm with a 90mm stem or a rediculous 51cm
with a standard 110mm stem.

Seat and Head Tube Angle = 73.5 degrees.

Seat to Stem Height = Stem 8mm higher than seat.

I think that these are all of the important numbers. If there is
anything that I have missed let me know and I'll try to find it.

So from here it does look like I will need a bike with a shorter top
tube to fix the reach issue and a taller front end to address the
height issue.

I was originally looking at TI bikes which led me to Serotta and
Litespeed and ruled out the carbon Trek Pilot. It looks like a stock
Litespeed is probably out unless a Siena can be made to fit but the
front end might not be tall enough. The Serotta Fierte looks like it
might be a possibility in a 54S although the seat tube is a little
short

Can anyone offer any other possibilities for similar TI bikes that
have this characteristic geometry?

Thanks,

Steve

Of course, the dumb question that comes to mind is, given that fit trumps
just about everything else, why does the bike need to be made of Titanium?
If it's an aesthetic issue, fine... whatever it takes to make somebody
want
to ride more.

You're right, I have decided on Ti for aesthetics and longevity. Where
I live the humidity is high enough that steel will eventually rust and
I'm not sold on the longevity or durability of carbon either. TI is
forever. Zero maintenance.

Ti frames *do* fail. Just like everything else. Choose Ti because you like
the way it looks, not because it's somehow stronger than carbon. Carbon
fiber, used properly, is as strong as anything you can get. If you're
actually concerned that a Trek carbon frame isn't going to be as durable as
a brand-whatever Ti, then I'll be interested in what fork (specifically what
type of material it's made of) you choose for your bike...

But great frames can be made of steel, ti, aluminum or carbon.
If the Trek Pilot series fits, you ought to try one and see how it goes.
And
not just because it's a Trek (a disclaimer that I have to make,
particularly
since we're the largest Trek carbon dealer in the country). If it's the
theoretically-correct fit, it's worth trying if for no other reason that
to
see how the fit feels for the custom Ti bike it sounds like you might have
to have made.

Sounds like a good idea to try out the Trek for fit. However I'm not
so sure that a short test ride will be sufficient to really tell much.

You may be quite surprised at how much even a four mile test ride can
determine. It will definitely help if there are some hills, and a variety of
pavement types.

I think that a lot of folks sort of learn to put up with fit problems
just like I have on the Cannondale. I suspect that this is the main
reason that Ebay is so full of good used bikes. The bike didn't fit
right and the owner finally got tired of riding it that way.

That's unfortunate. For a majority of bikes, getting a proper fit is
primarily a matter of defining it. Actually modifying the bike to get there
is relatively easy. You may have to throw out some cherished myths about
stem length though (especially the silly stuff about looking down through
the bars and having the hub obscured). Very few people need "custom" bikes
(and even fewer with bikes like the Pilot coming on the scene).

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Steve Sr." wrote in message
...
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 07:29:44 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
wrote:

I was originally looking at TI bikes which led me to Serotta and
Litespeed and ruled out the carbon Trek Pilot. It looks like a stock
Litespeed is probably out unless a Siena can be made to fit but the
front end might not be tall enough. The Serotta Fierte looks like it
might be a possibility in a 54S although the seat tube is a little
short

Can anyone offer any other possibilities for similar TI bikes that
have this characteristic geometry?

Of course, the dumb question that comes to mind is, given that fit trumps
just about everything else, why does the bike need to be made of Titanium?
If it's an aesthetic issue, fine... whatever it takes to make somebody
want
to ride more.

You're right, I have decided on Ti for aesthetics and longevity. Where
I live the humidity is high enough that steel will eventually rust and
I'm not sold on the longevity or durability of carbon either. TI is
forever. Zero maintenance.

But great frames can be made of steel, ti, aluminum or carbon.
If the Trek Pilot series fits, you ought to try one and see how it goes.
And
not just because it's a Trek (a disclaimer that I have to make,
particularly
since we're the largest Trek carbon dealer in the country). If it's the
theoretically-correct fit, it's worth trying if for no other reason that
to
see how the fit feels for the custom Ti bike it sounds like you might have
to have made.

Sounds like a good idea to try out the Trek for fit. However I'm not
so sure that a short test ride will be sufficient to really tell much.
I think that a lot of folks sort of learn to put up with fit problems
just like I have on the Cannondale. I suspect that this is the main
reason that Ebay is so full of good used bikes. The bike didn't fit
right and the owner finally got tired of riding it that way.

I think that another good way to test for fit is after a really long
ride like a century (either metric or english!) The other issue is
that the carbon Trek I suspect will feel quite different simply
because of the frame material.

By the way, doesn't Serotta make an extension tube that essentially
lengthens the headtube, raising the front end? It's not a cheap piece of
hardware, but I believe it can be used on a number of frames.

I don't know about this. Serotta is mostly a high-end custom frame
company but they happen to make one "stock" model which comes fairly
close to fitting me. I have heard that it is not a good idea to add
long extensions to the steerer tube both for aesthetic and handling
reasons.

Steve




--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Steve Sr." wrote in message
. ..
The Previous thread was getting long and I think it is time to bend it
in a slightly different direction. Thanks to everyone who responded
and especially to Jay.

I went back to the person who did the fit and asked some more
questions about the data. For the conventional frame Fit Cycle here
are the ideal frame measurments:

Seat Tube = 55cm.

Top Tube = 55cm (but that resulted in a 70mm stem which is no good).
So the top tube should be 53cm with a 90mm stem or a rediculous 51cm
with a standard 110mm stem.

Seat and Head Tube Angle = 73.5 degrees.

Seat to Stem Height = Stem 8mm higher than seat.

I think that these are all of the important numbers. If there is
anything that I have missed let me know and I'll try to find it.

So from here it does look like I will need a bike with a shorter top
tube to fix the reach issue and a taller front end to address the
height issue.

I was originally looking at TI bikes which led me to Serotta and
Litespeed and ruled out the carbon Trek Pilot. It looks like a stock
Litespeed is probably out unless a Siena can be made to fit but the
front end might not be tall enough. The Serotta Fierte looks like it
might be a possibility in a 54S although the seat tube is a little
short

Can anyone offer any other possibilities for similar TI bikes that
have this characteristic geometry?

Thanks,

Steve

Steve Sr. wrote:
Can anyone offer any other possibilities for similar TI bikes that
have this characteristic geometry?

On 30 Mar 2005 20:01:19 -0800, "itsfred" wrote:
Without addressing the plausibility of your fit data, why not have a
custom Ti frame built? Habanero, a popular favorite on this board, can
do it for you very reasonably. Roark Cycles in Brownsburg, Indiana did
a fabulous job for me. Nice people, impeccable workmanship, and
direct-to-consumer pricing. But before I signed the order I'd have
another fit done and be really confident the fitter understands your
goals and abilities as well as dimensions. Hope this is helpful.

Steve Sr. wrote:
Actually having a custom done is still in the equation. The local REI
shop which sells Litespeed has mentioned this although there is a $500
additional charge for the custom. However , through the end of the
month Litespeed is giving away free wheels which about negates the
added charge.


Habanero custom is less expesive for a comparable frame.

You assume a lot about the value of those wheels.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Point taken. My new bike will probably have a carbon fork since just
about all high end bikes seem to be coming with carbon forks. However,
I would much rather have to replace a fork for $200 than a frame for
$2000.

Steve

Steve: My point had nothing to do with cost. Rather, if you don't trust
carbon to hold up for a frame, why would you even consider using it on a
fork? A frame can fail many different ways without dumping you on the
ground, but if a fork fails, you're toast. There is no part of your bike
that you're more dependent upon for living a normal lifespan than your fork
(and maybe your bar & stem). Fork goes, YOU go. Badly.

Fortunately, it's been a non-issue. Carbon forks are generally (not always)
engineered with a pretty healthy safety margin. Just like many (not all)
carbon frames. And the type of impact that would kill a carbon frame would
most likely do the same to any other material. Repair costs? Carbon frames
can have tubes replaced... no, it's not cheap, but it's not cheap to do so
on Ti (or steel) either.

Buy Ti because you like the looks, or imagine that it rides better. But
don't get sucked into the idea that it builds a better frame than any other
material. A few years ago the world was littered with a whole bunch of
name-brand Ti "SL" (superlight) frames that broke where the shifter bosses
are located. I was riding with a guy who had one... we noticed some noise
and found a small crack. Decided not to do the ride to the coast that
morning, and started heading back towards his car. Within one mile that
crack had gone from 1/4" to more than halfway around the tube. Why did this
happen? Because the manufacturer (remember, big-name company) (no, not
Mark/Habanero; he'd never have something built that close to the edge!)
wanted to play the weight game, and get something close to the weight of
carbon. Dumb. It was an inappropriate way to use the material.

Used properly, as I said before, you can make a great frame out of any of
hte standard materials. You just have to understand the strengths &
weaknesses of each. And we've sold many thousands (literally) of Trek carbon
frames over the years, enough to know that they hold up as well as anything
else out there. I've even road-tested one myself into a car, just to make
sure (http://www.chainreaction.com/oclvtestcrash.htm). But I don't recommend
you repeat the experiment!

PS: You can still buy a steel fork for your new bike, you just have to look
a bit harder to find them.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com

Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
"Steve Sr." wrote in message
...
On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 04:49:12 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
wrote:

Of course, the dumb question that comes to mind is, given that fit
trumps
just about everything else, why does the bike need to be made of
Titanium?
If it's an aesthetic issue, fine... whatever it takes to make somebody
want
to ride more.

You're right, I have decided on Ti for aesthetics and longevity. Where
I live the humidity is high enough that steel will eventually rust and
I'm not sold on the longevity or durability of carbon either. TI is
forever. Zero maintenance.

Ti frames *do* fail. Just like everything else. Choose Ti because you like
the way it looks, not because it's somehow stronger than carbon. Carbon
fiber, used properly, is as strong as anything you can get. If you're
actually concerned that a Trek carbon frame isn't going to be as durable
as
a brand-whatever Ti, then I'll be interested in what fork (specifically
what
type of material it's made of) you choose for your bike...

Point taken. My new bike will probably have a carbon fork since just
about all high end bikes seem to be coming with carbon forks. However,
I would much rather have to replace a fork for $200 than a frame for
$2000.

Steve


But great frames can be made of steel, ti, aluminum or carbon.
If the Trek Pilot series fits, you ought to try one and see how it goes.
And
not just because it's a Trek (a disclaimer that I have to make,
particularly
since we're the largest Trek carbon dealer in the country). If it's the
theoretically-correct fit, it's worth trying if for no other reason that
to
see how the fit feels for the custom Ti bike it sounds like you might
have
to have made.

Sounds like a good idea to try out the Trek for fit. However I'm not
so sure that a short test ride will be sufficient to really tell much.

You may be quite surprised at how much even a four mile test ride can
determine. It will definitely help if there are some hills, and a variety
of
pavement types.

I think that a lot of folks sort of learn to put up with fit problems
just like I have on the Cannondale. I suspect that this is the main
reason that Ebay is so full of good used bikes. The bike didn't fit
right and the owner finally got tired of riding it that way.

That's unfortunate. For a majority of bikes, getting a proper fit is
primarily a matter of defining it. Actually modifying the bike to get
there
is relatively easy. You may have to throw out some cherished myths about
stem length though (especially the silly stuff about looking down through
the bars and having the hub obscured). Very few people need "custom" bikes
(and even fewer with bikes like the Pilot coming on the scene).

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Steve Sr." wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 07:29:44 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
wrote:

I was originally looking at TI bikes which led me to Serotta and
Litespeed and ruled out the carbon Trek Pilot. It looks like a stock
Litespeed is probably out unless a Siena can be made to fit but the
front end might not be tall enough. The Serotta Fierte looks like it
might be a possibility in a 54S although the seat tube is a little
short

Can anyone offer any other possibilities for similar TI bikes that
have this characteristic geometry?

Of course, the dumb question that comes to mind is, given that fit
trumps
just about everything else, why does the bike need to be made of
Titanium?
If it's an aesthetic issue, fine... whatever it takes to make somebody
want
to ride more.

You're right, I have decided on Ti for aesthetics and longevity. Where
I live the humidity is high enough that steel will eventually rust and
I'm not sold on the longevity or durability of carbon either. TI is
forever. Zero maintenance.

But great frames can be made of steel, ti, aluminum or carbon.
If the Trek Pilot series fits, you ought to try one and see how it goes.
And
not just because it's a Trek (a disclaimer that I have to make,
particularly
since we're the largest Trek carbon dealer in the country). If it's the
theoretically-correct fit, it's worth trying if for no other reason that
to
see how the fit feels for the custom Ti bike it sounds like you might
have
to have made.

Sounds like a good idea to try out the Trek for fit. However I'm not
so sure that a short test ride will be sufficient to really tell much.
I think that a lot of folks sort of learn to put up with fit problems
just like I have on the Cannondale. I suspect that this is the main
reason that Ebay is so full of good used bikes. The bike didn't fit
right and the owner finally got tired of riding it that way.

I think that another good way to test for fit is after a really long
ride like a century (either metric or english!) The other issue is
that the carbon Trek I suspect will feel quite different simply
because of the frame material.

By the way, doesn't Serotta make an extension tube that essentially
lengthens the headtube, raising the front end? It's not a cheap piece of
hardware, but I believe it can be used on a number of frames.

I don't know about this. Serotta is mostly a high-end custom frame
company but they happen to make one "stock" model which comes fairly
close to fitting me. I have heard that it is not a good idea to add
long extensions to the steerer tube both for aesthetic and handling
reasons.

Steve




--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Steve Sr." wrote in message
m...
The Previous thread was getting long and I think it is time to bend it
in a slightly different direction. Thanks to everyone who responded
and especially to Jay.

I went back to the person who did the fit and asked some more
questions about the data. For the conventional frame Fit Cycle here
are the ideal frame measurments:

Seat Tube = 55cm.

Top Tube = 55cm (but that resulted in a 70mm stem which is no good).
So the top tube should be 53cm with a 90mm stem or a rediculous 51cm
with a standard 110mm stem.

Seat and Head Tube Angle = 73.5 degrees.

Seat to Stem Height = Stem 8mm higher than seat.

I think that these are all of the important numbers. If there is
anything that I have missed let me know and I'll try to find it.

So from here it does look like I will need a bike with a shorter top
tube to fix the reach issue and a taller front end to address the
height issue.

I was originally looking at TI bikes which led me to Serotta and
Litespeed and ruled out the carbon Trek Pilot. It looks like a stock
Litespeed is probably out unless a Siena can be made to fit but the
front end might not be tall enough. The Serotta Fierte looks like it
might be a possibility in a 54S although the seat tube is a little
short

Can anyone offer any other possibilities for similar TI bikes that
have this characteristic geometry?

Thanks,

Steve

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
Point taken. My new bike will probably have a carbon fork since just
about all high end bikes seem to be coming with carbon forks. However,
I would much rather have to replace a fork for $200 than a frame for
$2000.

Steve


Steve: My point had nothing to do with cost. Rather, if you don't trust
carbon to hold up for a frame, why would you even consider using it on a
fork? A frame can fail many different ways without dumping you on the
ground, but if a fork fails, you're toast. There is no part of your bike
that you're more dependent upon for living a normal lifespan than your fork
(and maybe your bar & stem). Fork goes, YOU go. Badly.

Fortunately, it's been a non-issue. Carbon forks are generally (not always)
engineered with a pretty healthy safety margin. Just like many (not all)
carbon frames. And the type of impact that would kill a carbon frame would
most likely do the same to any other material. Repair costs? Carbon frames
can have tubes replaced... no, it's not cheap, but it's not cheap to do so
on Ti (or steel) either.

A fork that bends or breaks in a collison, shouldn't be the issue, it's
the fork that breaks under normal operating conditions, like over a
railway track, or a pot hole, that is a big issue. Cheaply made
components, made out of exotic materials tend to still be overly
expensive.....

Used properly, as I said before, you can make a great frame out of
any of
hte standard materials. You just have to understand the strengths &
weaknesses of each. And we've sold many thousands (literally) of Trek carbon
frames over the years, enough to know that they hold up as well as anything
else out there. I've even road-tested one myself into a car, just to make
sure (http://www.chainreaction.com/oclvtestcrash.htm). But I don't recommend
you repeat the experiment!

I have a tooth that was broken off when pushed into a locker at high
school, when two other guys decided to fight each other, that was 1978,
it finally needed a root canal in 2001, so your stub may last quite a
while.....

The last crown on it, was built by the dentist in place using some
plastic like filling material, because it can easily be repaired rather
then replaced like the porceline one that it replaced.....

W

I've even road-tested one myself into a car, just to make sure
(http://www.chainreaction.com/oclvtestcrash.htm). But I don't recommend
you repeat the experiment!

I have a tooth that was broken off when pushed into a locker at high
school, when two other guys decided to fight each other, that was 1978, it
finally needed a root canal in 2001, so your stub may last quite a
while.....

So far, so good! No problems at all with it, and if it lasts 23 years, it
might very well have needed a root canal for other reasons. I've got faith
it'll hang in there.

The last crown on it, was built by the dentist in place using some plastic
like filling material, because it can easily be repaired rather then
replaced like the porceline one that it replaced.....

That I'm not aware of. Repairing a plastic crown... interesting. What the
heck, one of the TBLs (Truly Big Lies) is that any sort of dentistry is
permanent. Nobody tells you that every filling they do will eventually fail,
probably requiring a crown. And that crowns will fail as well, which maybe
moves you to a bridge.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
"The Wogster" wrote in message
...
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
Point taken. My new bike will probably have a carbon fork since just
about all high end bikes seem to be coming with carbon forks. However,
I would much rather have to replace a fork for $200 than a frame for
$2000.

Steve


Steve: My point had nothing to do with cost. Rather, if you don't trust
carbon to hold up for a frame, why would you even consider using it on a
fork? A frame can fail many different ways without dumping you on the
ground, but if a fork fails, you're toast. There is no part of your bike
that you're more dependent upon for living a normal lifespan than your
fork (and maybe your bar & stem). Fork goes, YOU go. Badly.

Fortunately, it's been a non-issue. Carbon forks are generally (not
always) engineered with a pretty healthy safety margin. Just like many
(not all) carbon frames. And the type of impact that would kill a carbon
frame would most likely do the same to any other material. Repair costs?
Carbon frames can have tubes replaced... no, it's not cheap, but it's not
cheap to do so on Ti (or steel) either.

A fork that bends or breaks in a collison, shouldn't be the issue, it's
the fork that breaks under normal operating conditions, like over a
railway track, or a pot hole, that is a big issue. Cheaply made
components, made out of exotic materials tend to still be overly
expensive.....

Used properly, as I said before, you can make a great frame out of any
of
hte standard materials. You just have to understand the strengths &
weaknesses of each. And we've sold many thousands (literally) of Trek
carbon frames over the years, enough to know that they hold up as well as
anything else out there. I've even road-tested one myself into a car,
just to make sure (http://www.chainreaction.com/oclvtestcrash.htm). But I
don't recommend you repeat the experiment!

I have a tooth that was broken off when pushed into a locker at high
school, when two other guys decided to fight each other, that was 1978, it
finally needed a root canal in 2001, so your stub may last quite a
while.....

The last crown on it, was built by the dentist in place using some plastic
like filling material, because it can easily be repaired rather then
replaced like the porceline one that it replaced.....

W