An all-automatic CVT based bicycle?

On Jun 5, 4:00 am, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:
"Andre Jute" wrote in message

...

On Jun 4, 9:32 pm, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:
Do you suppose you gain anything by having an automatic transmission on a
device that can usually be powered through a single gear?

What a curmudgeonly old luddite you are, Tom. Let the young man have
his dreams of making something, or making something better, or even
reinventing the wheel. Who knows, if we encourage him he might invent
something to make even you seem, by magic, as fast on your bike as a
young man.

Andre, one of the problems is that too many people think "improvement" is
"speed".

Quite. I've said so many times before. But the problem is that many
cyclists, and many on this conference, do think that improvement and
speed are synonymous to the exclusion of any other equivalence, and
say so, or imply it by constant emphasis on weight. When I arrived on
RBT some posters showed the poor judgement of sneering at me as a
"recreational cyclist", for instance -- and what is opposed to a
recreational cyclist but one who is speedier? Bullies generally
believe that they act with the support and on behalf of the majority,
in short that their opinion is the lowest common denominator.

I don't want to discourage someone from inventing anything they
want. But can't a good bicycle remain a good bicycle?

I agree with you. No one should shackle up a thoroughbred to a cart
hauling corpses to the cemetery.

But that isn't what this thread is about. This thread is about making
a comfort-bike even more comfortable. I, for one, define "improvement"
not as speed (though speed may come into it as a result of other
factors) but as greater comfort, greater ease of operation, more time
to enjoy being out in the open rather than paying attention to
shifting gears or keeping up cadence or proving something by taking
the lead on the steepest hills. You're throwing a bunch of apples --
very well bred apples, true -- into a basket in which this young man,
and I, and Joseph and others, have placed only oranges. I mean, who in
his right mind will put a NuVinci CVT on these bikes:

Look KG241
Time VX Elite
Colnago C40
Eddy Merckx EX Pro
Basso Loto
Raleigh CX
Atala CX converted to a touring bike.

It's a point I made to the OP already, when I discussed the
miscomprehension of their potential market by the designers of the
NuVinci -- they're in comfort bikes, not sports bikes, but they
demonstrate that they do not understand this by providing fittings for
a disc brake, for all the world as if they believe they're competing
against Rohloff...

Andre Jute
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/B...%20HUMOUR.html

On Jun 5, 12:17 am, Andre Jute wrote:
On Jun 5, 4:00 am, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:



"Andre Jute" wrote in message

...

On Jun 4, 9:32 pm, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:
Do you suppose you gain anything by having an automatic transmission on a
device that can usually be powered through a single gear?

What a curmudgeonly old luddite you are, Tom. Let the young man have
his dreams of making something, or making something better, or even
reinventing the wheel. Who knows, if we encourage him he might invent
something to make even you seem, by magic, as fast on your bike as a
young man.

Andre, one of the problems is that too many people think "improvement" is
"speed".

Quite. I've said so many times before. But the problem is that many
cyclists, and many on this conference, do think that improvement and
speed are synonymous to the exclusion of any other equivalence, and
say so, or imply it by constant emphasis on weight. When I arrived on
RBT some posters showed the poor judgement of sneering at me as a
"recreational cyclist", for instance -- and what is opposed to a
recreational cyclist but one who is speedier? Bullies generally
believe that they act with the support and on behalf of the majority,
in short that their opinion is the lowest common denominator.

I don't want to discourage someone from inventing anything they
want. But can't a good bicycle remain a good bicycle?

I agree with you. No one should shackle up a thoroughbred to a cart
hauling corpses to the cemetery.

But that isn't what this thread is about. This thread is about making
a comfort-bike even more comfortable. I, for one, define "improvement"
not as speed (though speed may come into it as a result of other
factors) but as greater comfort, greater ease of operation, more time
to enjoy being out in the open rather than paying attention to
shifting gears or keeping up cadence or proving something by taking
the lead on the steepest hills. You're throwing a bunch of apples --
very well bred apples, true -- into a basket in which this young man,
and I, and Joseph and others, have placed only oranges. I mean, who in
his right mind will put a NuVinci CVT on these bikes:

Look KG241
Time VX Elite
Colnago C40
Eddy Merckx EX Pro
Basso Loto
Raleigh CX
Atala CX converted to a touring bike.

It's a point I made to the OP already, when I discussed the
miscomprehension of their potential market by the designers of the
NuVinci -- they're in comfort bikes, not sports bikes, but they
demonstrate that they do not understand this by providing fittings for
a disc brake, for all the world as if they believe they're competing
against Rohloff...

Andre Jutehttp://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20HUMOUR.html

Andre ,

I think you put that very well there. There is a segment of the
consumer market which is composed of new people coming to bicycling.
Most of them haven't ridden bikes before, leave along "serious biking"
Some don't even know how to shift! The big question then is should
bike companies impose bicycles that are already available and that
which might not be necessarily optimum on this segment of consumers. I
think its a nice idea to diversify as much as possible and capture
everyone into cycling and bikes, whatever form it is...especially in
these times of ridiculous energy prices.

The challenge of this project however is different. The bike is to
automatically shift based on an objective measurement of effort. My
understanding is that one input alone, like cadence, is insufficient.
I've written my thoughts already here :
http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2008...d-bicycle.html

I have one question for you. You described the working of the Di2
system. Now suppose I coast down on such a bike, my RPM is 0 in that
case. Will the system make the mistake of upshifting?

The di2 system is amazing. Previously, I had never heard about this.
Perhaps is it because it is not available in the u.s? I do not get the
entire gist of what you're seeing, it'll be nice if there was a video
to see it actually at work. Anyways, too much writing for today.

BD
http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com

On Jun 5, 6:08*am, bicycle_disciple wrote:
On Jun 4, 1:13 pm, "



wrote:
On Jun 4, 7:02 pm, bicycle_disciple wrote:

On Jun 4, 10:27 am, Marz wrote:

On Jun 4, 3:01 am, bicycle_disciple wrote:

Hi all!

Question : Is it possible to remove handlebar shifting and make an
automatic shifting bicycle with a Nuvinci hub? How is it possible? I
tried to juggle with this a bit here :http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2008...vt-based-bicyc...

I like the Nuvinci hub design. Its unique but I obviously never had
one myself to try out. What are your thoughts when comparing this to
previous CVT transmissions? Did anyone use it and have any problems in
high torque, low speed situations? Thanks!

Ellsworh already make one, "The Ride". I've not ridden one and so I've
no idea how it rides regarding high torque and low speed situations.
It might be the $3999 price tag that's putting me off buying one.

Marz,

I know and few reviews I saw were positive ones. But the bike features
handlebar twist type shifting. The challenge is make an automatic
bicycle that "thinks" on its own Thats a tougher task.

Get one of these to measure power (and let you know what it is in a
readable format):

http://www.quarq.us/Spiders/CinQo.html

Then hack together a program on one of these:

http://www.gumstix.com/waysmalls.html

And use some servo controller to operate the shift:

http://www.phidgetsusa.com/servo_controllers.asp

If you really wanted to get crazy, you would progrma different "maps"
and be able to switch amongst them with voice control.

Joseph

Thanks. Good information so far. I already figured that one of the
biggest challenges will be on programming. Other than PIC
microcontrollers, could a PLC be used or is that overkill? I still do
not understand if there's a difference between the two...I know PLC's
can be programmed with special software, I have a little experience
with those.

I have only day-dreamed about programming embedded hardware. I've
never done it. That's why I would use something like one of those
gumstix so I would have a "real" computer to play with. I'd do the
programming in a high level language (Python would be my choice) to
make code and debug easier (for me at least).

And servo controllers can be had serial or USB so those should be easy
to work with without needing to become an expert on anything.


Joseph : Even I dreamt of voice operation. It would be really
ridiculous going "computer ! shift, downshift, shift, downshift..." on
a climb or a city sidepath.

A "manual" voice override would be cool, but I was more thinking of
being able to specify different modes, like "race", "hill",
"tailwind", "recovery", etc.

I'd also want it to deal with out of the saddle appropriately too.

Fun!

Joseph

On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 08:09:36 +0100,
wrote:


A "manual" voice override would be cool, but I was more thinking of
being able to specify different modes, like "race", "hill",
"tailwind", "recovery", etc.

I'd also want it to deal with out of the saddle appropriately too.

Fun!

Joseph

Shout BANZAI!!! as you attack?

wrote:
On Jun 4, 7:02 pm, bicycle_disciple wrote:
On Jun 4, 10:27 am, Marz wrote:



On Jun 4, 3:01 am, bicycle_disciple wrote:
Hi all!
Question : Is it possible to remove handlebar shifting and make an
automatic shifting bicycle with a Nuvinci hub? How is it possible? I
tried to juggle with this a bit here :http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2008...vt-based-bicyc...
I like the Nuvinci hub design. Its unique but I obviously never had
one myself to try out. What are your thoughts when comparing this to
previous CVT transmissions? Did anyone use it and have any problems in
high torque, low speed situations? Thanks!
Ellsworh already make one, "The Ride". I've not ridden one and so I've
no idea how it rides regarding high torque and low speed situations.
It might be the $3999 price tag that's putting me off buying one.
Marz,

I know and few reviews I saw were positive ones. But the bike features
handlebar twist type shifting. The challenge is make an automatic
bicycle that "thinks" on its own Thats a tougher task.

Get one of these to measure power (and let you know what it is in a
readable format):

http://www.quarq.us/Spiders/CinQo.html

Then hack together a program on one of these:

http://www.gumstix.com/waysmalls.html

And use some servo controller to operate the shift:

http://www.phidgetsusa.com/servo_controllers.asp

If you really wanted to get crazy, you would progrma different "maps"
and be able to switch amongst them with voice control.

Joseph

I'd include an inclination sensor, a wind speed sensor, a temperature
sensor, an atmospheric pressure sensor, a humidity sensor, to adjust the
transmission based on these factors as well. Have one input for the
rider to select their fitness level.

"bicycle_disciple" wrote in message
...

I think you put that very well there. There is a segment of the
consumer market which is composed of new people coming to bicycling.
Most of them haven't ridden bikes before, leave along "serious biking"
Some don't even know how to shift!

Not to put too fine a point on it but there are few people too stupid to
learn how to shift in minutes. To imply that they need an automatic
transmission instead of a few minutes instruction is pretty whacky.

In article
,
bicycle_disciple wrote:

On Jun 4, 1:13 pm, "
wrote:
On Jun 4, 7:02 pm, bicycle_disciple wrote:
On Jun 4, 10:27 am, Marz wrote:
On Jun 4, 3:01 am, bicycle_disciple wrote:
Hi all!

Question : Is it possible to remove handlebar shifting and make an
automatic shifting bicycle with a Nuvinci hub? How is it possible? I
tried to juggle with this a bit here :http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2008...vt-based-bicyc...

I like the Nuvinci hub design. Its unique but I obviously never had
one myself to try out. What are your thoughts when comparing this to
previous CVT transmissions? Did anyone use it and have any problems in
high torque, low speed situations? Thanks!

Ellsworh already make one, "The Ride". I've not ridden one and so I've
no idea how it rides regarding high torque and low speed situations.
It might be the $3999 price tag that's putting me off buying one.

I know and few reviews I saw were positive ones. But the bike features
handlebar twist type shifting. The challenge is make an automatic
bicycle that "thinks" on its own Thats a tougher task.

Get one of these to measure power (and let you know what it is in a
readable format):

http://www.quarq.us/Spiders/CinQo.html

Then hack together a program on one of these:

http://www.gumstix.com/waysmalls.html

And use some servo controller to operate the shift:

http://www.phidgetsusa.com/servo_controllers.asp

If you really wanted to get crazy, you would progrma different "maps"
and be able to switch amongst them with voice control.

Thanks. Good information so far. I already figured that one of the
biggest challenges will be on programming. Other than PIC
microcontrollers, could a PLC be used or is that overkill? I still do
not understand if there's a difference between the two...I know PLC's
can be programmed with special software, I have a little experience
with those.

Joseph : Even I dreamt of voice operation. It would be really
ridiculous going "computer ! shift, downshift, shift, downshift..." on
a climb or a city sidepath.

Speaking commands is much more physical work than flicking
a switch. Those voice recognition voice mail systems?
Hate 'em. And don't you feel turned out being forced to
speak to command and there is nobody there? Fact: those
systems respond to the telephone keypad too. The first
option is accepted by pushing the 1 key, the second option
is accepted by pushing the 2 key... Unfortunately, cellular
telephones do not put out the keypad tones; except some,
and you have to go through contortions to emit them.

--
Michael Press

On Jun 5, 6:16*am, bicycle_disciple wrote:

[Total snip, not because what went before is uninteresting but because
we're returning to even more interesting technicalities:}

Andre ,

I think you put that very well there. There is a segment of the
consumer market which is composed of new people coming to bicycling.
Most of them haven't ridden bikes before, leave along "serious biking"
Some don't even know how to shift! The big question then is should
bike companies impose bicycles that are already available and that
which might not be necessarily optimum on this segment of consumers. I
think its a nice idea to diversify as much as possible and capture
everyone into cycling and bikes, whatever form it is...especially in
these times of ridiculous energy prices.

The challenge of this project however is different. The bike is to
automatically shift based on an objective measurement of effort. My
understanding is that one input alone, like cadence, is insufficient.
I've written my thoughts already here :http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2008...vt-based-bicyc...

Shimano's Di2 system operating parameters are nowhere that is publicly
accessible described in detail or even completely in principle. The
most comprehensive description is on my netsite at
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/B...%20Smover.html
All the same, you cannot take what I say as gospel; some of that
material I hunted up from what is published, some I deduced or, to put
an engineering gloss on it, concluded from available material or daily
hands-on experience of the Di2 system over more than a year.

Conclusion from available material and experience with the hardware
and softwa Shimano's Di2 system responds to six distinct operating
parameters and a couple of manual override modes:

-- intensity of light to switch on and off the lights; nothing to do
with changing the gears

-- motion; the front wheel must move to switch the system on and allow
operation; certain minor display and setting operations, and the
parameter sets, are protected by a small battery in the Flight Deck
(and possibly by either a charged up capacitor or a flash EPROM in the
CPU unit)

-- rider's desired power expenditure, read from an 8-position switch
the rider sets

-- velocity or speed of bike, measured by a sender in the front
dynohub

-- inclination of bike to change the setting of the electronic
suspension when climbing hills; I don't know whether this is also an
input to gear changing or whether gear changing depends solely on the
setting of the power switch and the speed measurement

-- operating map, one of three selected by rider via switch; this
controls how fast the gearbox ramps up the torque conversion; in the
most sporting of these maps bottom gear is locked out altogether

-- manual gearbox override, overrides other modes (maps) to permit
direct gear selection by up-down switch (actual gearchange still
effect by stepper motor as for auto change)

-- manual suspension override, permits firmness setting to be held and
changed by switch (in addition there is a mechanical preset and
lockout dial directly on top of the suspension fork, which performs
the same function for the suspension as the power switch performs for
the gearbox)

So, gear changes are definitely influenced by power setting, speed,
map setting, and possibly by inclination.
Notice that there is no connection to the bottom bracket or cranks. It
is however possible that torque is somehow read at hub and fed back to
the CPU as an input, but then why ask the rider to input a desired
power expenditure? On the whole I think power setting, speed and map
setting are all that is required for gearchanging in the Di2 system.

My experience is that this apparently simple system (compared to the
complicated system Steven Scharf is suggesting in his post) works with
incredible smoothness. My purpose in cycling is fitness, which I
define as endurance rather than bursts of power. Thus I regulate my
ride by putting my heart rate monitor on 80 per cent of max and simply
pedalling to keep it there under all road conditions (with a 15 per
cent max by time allowance for going over when tackling the steepest
hills on my familiar terrain say twice a week). I found that once I
discovered the right power setting, the Di2 system would always put me
in the right gear to hold my heart rate at 80pc of max up and down my
hills. There are no jerks; it is an almost imperceptible system,
which is why I say I cannot see the advantage of CVT unless it can be
made lighter (and weight is probably irrelevant to the small market
for automatic bikes).

I have one question for you. You described the working of the Di2
system. Now suppose I coast down on such a bike, my RPM is 0 in that
case. Will the system make the mistake of upshifting?

The Di2 system manual talks about the system not working if you're not
pedalling but it measures nothing at the pedals, cranks or bottom
bracket, and I doubt it measures torque at the gearhub end. So RPM is
irrelevant. Whoever wrote the English manual just suffered a memory
glitch in which he forgot that the Di2 group isn't a cadence-
controlled racing gruppe. What happens is that according to power
setting, speed and selected mode (map) the CPU instructs the gearbox
to be in the correct gear for what you will do next; despite its
simplicity, it is a predictive system. If you're coasting fast
downhill, the gearbox remains in top gear; if you brake to a speed
where the best acceleration will be in a lower gear, the system will
change down to that gear. If you're coasting through a dip and the
speed falls as you coast up the next hill, the gearbox changes down so
that you are in the right gear to start pedalling at your
predetermined preferred power. If you're braking to a stop, the
gearbox changes down to the lowest gear permitted by the selected map
(first gear for maps D and L, second gear for map Ds). I've not in 14
months and about 2300 klicks caught out the Di2 system; Shimano got it
right.

The di2 system is amazing. Previously, I had never heard about this.
Perhaps is it because it is not available in the u.s?

Cyber Nexus is found on luxury Dutch city bikes, Swiss sporting bikes,
and bikes sold at a big premium by car companies like Daimler-Benz,
makers of Mercedes. The head of Kogo-Miyata said Cyber Nexus was her
vision of the bike of tomorrow; I don't know if Koga even lists a
Cyber Nexus bike any more; other luxury makers like Gazelle still
offer autobox-only Cyber Nexus models (without the fancy electronic
suspension) at a pretty good price but I don't imagine they sell all
that many. (Frankly, except for technofreaks like you'n'me, I'm not
sure there is a market; the Nexus manual gearchange is easy enough for
everyone, so an automatic gearbox is a solution in search of a non-
existent problem. There may be space for a cheap autobox at the other
end of the market, but beginners don't buy bikes in the Cyber Nexus/
Smover price class.) Even Trek, pretty wide awake marketers, made a
special line for the Cyber Nexus; Trek is now trying with automatic
bikes at a much lower part of the market. Like Citroen cars, it seems
likely that Cyber Nexus was considered too complicated for American
consumers and mechanics...

I do not get the
entire gist of what you're seeing, it'll be nice if there was a video
to see it actually at work.

A video of me riding along, pedalling and doing nothing else, would be
dead boring. The point about Shimano's Di2 system is that there is
nothing visible or audible from the system, and the rider does nothing
except pedal and look around. That's what made Shimano's own video so
dull -- there was nothing for those interested in the engineering to
latch onto.

Anyways, too much writing for today.

BDhttp://cozybeehive.blogspot.com

HTH.

Andre Jute
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/B...20CYCLING.html

On Jun 5, 2:42 pm, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:
"bicycle_disciple" wrote in message

...



I think you put that very well there. There is a segment of the
consumer market which is composed of new people coming to bicycling.
Most of them haven't ridden bikes before, leave along "serious biking"
Some don't even know how to shift!

Not to put too fine a point on it but there are few people too stupid to
learn how to shift in minutes. To imply that they need an automatic
transmission instead of a few minutes instruction is pretty whacky.

This isn't about stupidity, Tom, but about the perceptions of
potential customers. If they think shifting will be difficult, they
won't even buy a bike. Therefore it is smart to introduce automatic
gears for new bicyclists somewhere near the cheap end of the market.

Second point: for those who fear derailleur shifting, there is the
option of hub gears with a simple, single rotary control. Even simpler
is the NuVinci with its continuously variable control.

Third point, same as first: the problem with automating the 8sp Nexus
and the NuVinci is that the necessary price puts the bike back in a
market where potential purchasers will be people either with bike
experience or those with the confidence to try anything and willing to
bet they will succeed. (Even I first bought a manual Nexus and ran it
for a couple of years for experience before splashing out on the
electronic automatic version -- and I'm pretty electronically savvy.)
In that case, the automatic bike must count on selling to technofreaks
and maybe the terminally incompetent rich. How many of either class
can there be? (Mind you, I know one guy who complained that his
electric bike was too difficult to ride...) So an automatic bike must
be cheap and appeal to new bicyclists -- of which there are
potentially tens of millions -- to have a chance of surviving by
creating a mass market.

Andre Jute
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/B...20CYCLING.html

Until a bike can be fitted with at least an applied-effort guage to
provide input to the shift control system, and until the rider can
override control of the automatic shifting, no autoshift arrangement
will be worth a damn for the average rider. All current 'automatic'
bike gear shift systems rely entirely on the assumption that there is
a fixed upper limit for pedalling rpm which can be universally applied
as the proper shift point...which, for most people, is dead wrong.
They typically enforce a far higher cadence than the average rider
wants to use...and no matter what the engineers, professionals,
designers, ergonomicists, and other self-appointed authorities may
want to believe, THE RIDER is the ONLY one who should be making this
decision.

Automotive automatic transmissions use several inputs to determine
shift points; they analog engine output by sensing both engine RPM and
throttle position (and/or, in older units, manifold vacuum), and they
they sense vehicle speed. All of these factors (apparent engine
output, throttle position, speed) are used to modulate both the shift
point and the shift severity. Bike 'automatic' shifters simply
upshift at a fixed speed and assume it's always right...even though,
for most users, that's seldom (if ever) the case.

I've now had the chance to ride two different bikes with automatic
shift setups. Both had exactly the failing described; they wanted to
force me to pedal at a cadence that was unnaturally high. I got the
same response from others who tried them; while the way in which it
was articulated was different, the result was the same. Each rider
wanted a bike that didn't make them pedal "so hard" or "so fast" or
"so much". One complained that the bikes were "too slow" because she
never got the pedalling rate up to the point where the bike would
shift.

Since trying to measure rider effort is a nontrivial task from an
expense and complexity standpoint, I predict that we will continue to
fail to get useful autoshift systems on bikes. This will remain true
regardless of whether the bike employs a gearhub, a derailleur, or a
CVT.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.