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  #271  
Old April 14th 21, 07:05 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Safety inflation

On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 8:28:17 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/13/2021 10:11 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 09:52:19 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/13/2021 1:13 AM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 22:31:49 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/12/2021 9:37 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 12:47:43 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:


Taking your response from bottom to top: I have certainly NOT ignored
that half of bike crashes are cyclists' fault. I've agreed many times.
That's one reason I'm such a proponent of cycling education.

Well, I looked it up and in 2021 it is estimated that some 70% of the
U.S. population has, or will have, a auto driver's license and as
these people have to, I believe in all states, be tested in the
traffic code as well as the ability to drive it would seem that most
people do know the traffic code. But cyclists require further
training?

I'd say so. Licenses or no, far too many people think they can do
whatever they want on a bike - that rules don't apply.

After all, you're the one whose most frequently said half of deaths are
the cyclists' fault. Be careful not to argue against yourself.

I don't believe that I am.
The most common reason for bicycle caused collisions in the L.S. study
was riding the wrong way. Does one require a master's degree in
bicycle riding to know that it is bad joss to ride the wrong way ?

Choosing the proper side of the road involves just the most basic
knowledge, not a master's degree. But it's still quite common to see
wrong way cyclists. It's common enough that the behavior has a nickname:
"Salmon riding." I've certainly seen plenty of it, and can give many
interesting anecdotes, if you like.


So... even though cyclists know that they are doing wrong the persist
in doing it? And education is going to correct this?

No, they _don't_ know they are doing it wrong. They generally think
they're safer riding facing traffic. That's why our club has a handout
explaining why it's actually more dangerous.


Your club should hand out of the state driver's manual -- or you can use the Oregon bicycle manual. https://www.oregon.gov/odot/programs...ist-manual.pdf

And where do you find these dopes? By the time people get to the club or group ride level, they generally have a fundamental understanding of the traffic laws -- and if they don't, they generally understand that they should follow the other riders. Do you actually have participants riding on the other side of the road?

-- Jay Beattie.
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  #272  
Old April 14th 21, 08:50 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Safety inflation

On 4/14/2021 2:05 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 8:28:17 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/13/2021 10:11 PM, John B. wrote:

So... even though cyclists know that they are doing wrong the persist
in doing it? And education is going to correct this?

No, they _don't_ know they are doing it wrong. They generally think
they're safer riding facing traffic. That's why our club has a handout
explaining why it's actually more dangerous.


Your club should hand out of the state driver's manual -- or you can use the Oregon bicycle manual. https://www.oregon.gov/odot/programs...ist-manual.pdf


I've handed out the latest edition of _Street Smarts_ to club members.
I'll pass out more of them tonight to new members. I've passed out
previous editions in the past.

And where do you find these dopes? By the time people get to the club or group ride level, they generally have a fundamental understanding of the traffic laws -- and if they don't, they generally understand that they should follow the other riders. Do you actually have participants riding on the other side of the road?


No, Jay, you're confused. I never said the people riding wrong way were
members of our club. Our members know at least that much, although some
need to learn some details. (There are always new folks joining.)

I've found the wrong-way dopes riding on my street, riding in upscale
residential neighborhoods near me, riding on residential collectors a
mile or two away, riding on the main streets in the city center, riding
the roads in the big metropark, riding near the university, riding on
suburban shopping arterials - you name it. And it's not just my area. I
remember riding a solo century in middle Pennsylvania and having to deal
with a wrong-way rider coming at me on a busy road. I said "You're on
the wrong side of the road!" so he chewed me out.

Especially ironic was the group of about five middle aged guys riding in
an upscale neighborhood near me at night. All five riding wrong way, not
a headlight among them. But they knew about safety! They all had helmets!

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #273  
Old April 14th 21, 10:08 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Safety inflation

On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 12:51:02 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/14/2021 2:05 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 8:28:17 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/13/2021 10:11 PM, John B. wrote:

So... even though cyclists know that they are doing wrong the persist
in doing it? And education is going to correct this?
No, they _don't_ know they are doing it wrong. They generally think
they're safer riding facing traffic. That's why our club has a handout
explaining why it's actually more dangerous.


Your club should hand out of the state driver's manual -- or you can use the Oregon bicycle manual. https://www.oregon.gov/odot/programs...ist-manual.pdf

I've handed out the latest edition of _Street Smarts_ to club members.
I'll pass out more of them tonight to new members. I've passed out
previous editions in the past.
And where do you find these dopes? By the time people get to the club or group ride level, they generally have a fundamental understanding of the traffic laws -- and if they don't, they generally understand that they should follow the other riders. Do you actually have participants riding on the other side of the road?

No, Jay, you're confused. I never said the people riding wrong way were
members of our club. Our members know at least that much, although some
need to learn some details. (There are always new folks joining.)

I've found the wrong-way dopes riding on my street, riding in upscale
residential neighborhoods near me, riding on residential collectors a
mile or two away, riding on the main streets in the city center, riding
the roads in the big metropark, riding near the university, riding on
suburban shopping arterials - you name it. And it's not just my area. I
remember riding a solo century in middle Pennsylvania and having to deal
with a wrong-way rider coming at me on a busy road. I said "You're on
the wrong side of the road!" so he chewed me out.

Especially ironic was the group of about five middle aged guys riding in
an upscale neighborhood near me at night. All five riding wrong way, not
a headlight among them. But they knew about safety! They all had helmets!


Well, its obvious that those guys were risk compensating. Whenever I wear my helmet I say, "what the hell; I'm impervious. Let's go do some night riding with no light on the wrong side of the road."

I see tons of cyclists every day, well at least I did before the plague, and the only people riding on the wrong side of the road were homeless or DUII cyclists on BMX bikes -- or just assholes, like the guy headed straight at me doing a wheelie. I can't remember the last wrong-way cyclist who didn't fit into one of those categories. Maybe Ohio needs better driver's training.

However, I was leaving my driveway last night and was almost run down by a little peleton riding up my street. I had to sprint to get away. They were on both sides of the street because there is no centerline. Imaginary centerline violation! Interestingly, the hill in front of my house is Strava segment. My street doesn't go anywhere except down into the neighborhood, so these are just neighbor cyclists duking it out.

-- Jay Beattie.




  #274  
Old April 14th 21, 11:38 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default Safety inflation

On 4/14/2021 2:08 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

I see tons of cyclists every day, well at least I did before the plague, and the only people riding on the wrong side of the road were homeless or DUII cyclists on BMX bikes -- or just assholes, like the guy headed straight at me doing a wheelie. I can't remember the last wrong-way cyclist who didn't fit into one of those categories. Maybe Ohio needs better driver's training.


I'm fully vaccinated and when you're ready I'm sure that Frank would be
happy to finance a fact-finding trip for us to go to Ohio to try to
determine why things are so bad in his area. We can investigate
wrong-way cyclists, lights, chain lubrication, and helmets.

I don't recall ever going to Ohio before, should be exciting.
  #275  
Old April 15th 21, 12:03 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Safety inflation

On Wed, 14 Apr 2021 11:31:06 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/13/2021 10:23 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 08:18:30 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot wrote:


In the fall of 1989 I moved to the city where I lived. In the time since then I have seen TWO bicyclists riding on the wrong side of the road.

Even on the road that's posted ONE WAY, BICYCLISTS EXCEPTED, I have yet to see a bicyclist riding counter to the traffic.

Cheers


We get as lot of it here as most major roads in Bangkok are divided
highways with long distances between "U" turn openings so it is either
2 km that-a-way to a U turn and the same distance back or just scoot
down the wrong side of the road two blocks to your street.


I think that's an unfortunate consequence of (re)designing cities for
maximum throughput of motor vehicles, and ignoring anybody traveling
otherwise.


Well, yes, but then the numbers of those traveling by motor vehicle is
so much greater then those traveling by bicycle.
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #276  
Old April 15th 21, 12:17 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Safety inflation

On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 3:38:11 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 4/14/2021 2:08 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip
I see tons of cyclists every day, well at least I did before the plague, and the only people riding on the wrong side of the road were homeless or DUII cyclists on BMX bikes -- or just assholes, like the guy headed straight at me doing a wheelie. I can't remember the last wrong-way cyclist who didn't fit into one of those categories. Maybe Ohio needs better driver's training.

I'm fully vaccinated and when you're ready I'm sure that Frank would be
happy to finance a fact-finding trip for us to go to Ohio to try to
determine why things are so bad in his area. We can investigate
wrong-way cyclists, lights, chain lubrication, and helmets.

I don't recall ever going to Ohio before, should be exciting.


I achieve full vaccination ("V2 status" (tm)) next week -- and then it is off to Ohio for my advanced degree in cycleology and quantum road positioning. We are developing a new "Zero Position" which puts you in the middle of the on-coming lane for maximum visibility. https://www.cyclinguk.org/sites/defa...?itok=2ZgMYIhy

-- Jay Beattie.
  #277  
Old April 15th 21, 12:59 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_7_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 173
Default Safety inflation

jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 3:38:11 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 4/14/2021 2:08 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip
I see tons of cyclists every day, well at least I did before the
plague, and the only people riding on the wrong side of the road were
homeless or DUII cyclists on BMX bikes -- or just assholes, like the
guy headed straight at me doing a wheelie. I can't remember the last
wrong-way cyclist who didn't fit into one of those categories. Maybe
Ohio needs better driver's training.

I'm fully vaccinated and when you're ready I'm sure that Frank would be
happy to finance a fact-finding trip for us to go to Ohio to try to
determine why things are so bad in his area. We can investigate
wrong-way cyclists, lights, chain lubrication, and helmets.

I don't recall ever going to Ohio before, should be exciting.


I achieve full vaccination ("V2 status" (tm)) next week -- and then it is
off to Ohio for my advanced degree in cycleology and quantum road
positioning. We are developing a new "Zero Position" which puts you in
the middle of the on-coming lane for maximum visibility.
https://www.cyclinguk.org/sites/defa...?itok=2ZgMYIhy

-- Jay Beattie.


Meh, sack cloth and ashes.

  #278  
Old April 15th 21, 01:04 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Safety inflation

On Wed, 14 Apr 2021 11:28:12 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/13/2021 10:11 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 09:52:19 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/13/2021 1:13 AM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 22:31:49 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/12/2021 9:37 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 12:47:43 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:


Taking your response from bottom to top: I have certainly NOT ignored
that half of bike crashes are cyclists' fault. I've agreed many times.
That's one reason I'm such a proponent of cycling education.

Well, I looked it up and in 2021 it is estimated that some 70% of the
U.S. population has, or will have, a auto driver's license and as
these people have to, I believe in all states, be tested in the
traffic code as well as the ability to drive it would seem that most
people do know the traffic code. But cyclists require further
training?

I'd say so. Licenses or no, far too many people think they can do
whatever they want on a bike - that rules don't apply.

After all, you're the one whose most frequently said half of deaths are
the cyclists' fault. Be careful not to argue against yourself.

I don't believe that I am.
The most common reason for bicycle caused collisions in the L.S. study
was riding the wrong way. Does one require a master's degree in
bicycle riding to know that it is bad joss to ride the wrong way ?

Choosing the proper side of the road involves just the most basic
knowledge, not a master's degree. But it's still quite common to see
wrong way cyclists. It's common enough that the behavior has a nickname:
"Salmon riding." I've certainly seen plenty of it, and can give many
interesting anecdotes, if you like.


So... even though cyclists know that they are doing wrong the persist
in doing it? And education is going to correct this?


No, they _don't_ know they are doing it wrong. They generally think
they're safer riding facing traffic. That's why our club has a handout
explaining why it's actually more dangerous.


But to be honest wrong way riding is only a part of it. Running stop
light/signs, which I remember you stating that you did, and all the
other (lets be honest) stupid things that cyclists do.
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #279  
Old April 15th 21, 01:26 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Safety inflation

On 4/14/2021 5:08 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 12:51:02 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/14/2021 2:05 PM, jbeattie wrote:

And where do you find these dopes? By the time people get to the club or group ride level, they generally have a fundamental understanding of the traffic laws -- and if they don't, they generally understand that they should follow the other riders. Do you actually have participants riding on the other side of the road?

No, Jay, you're confused. I never said the people riding wrong way were
members of our club. Our members know at least that much, although some
need to learn some details. (There are always new folks joining.)

I've found the wrong-way dopes riding on my street, riding in upscale
residential neighborhoods near me, riding on residential collectors a
mile or two away, riding on the main streets in the city center, riding
the roads in the big metropark, riding near the university, riding on
suburban shopping arterials - you name it. And it's not just my area. I
remember riding a solo century in middle Pennsylvania and having to deal
with a wrong-way rider coming at me on a busy road. I said "You're on
the wrong side of the road!" so he chewed me out.

Especially ironic was the group of about five middle aged guys riding in
an upscale neighborhood near me at night. All five riding wrong way, not
a headlight among them. But they knew about safety! They all had helmets!

I see tons of cyclists every day, well at least I did before the plague, and the only people riding on the wrong side of the road were homeless or DUII cyclists on BMX bikes -- or just assholes, like the guy headed straight at me doing a wheelie. I can't remember the last wrong-way cyclist who didn't fit into one of those categories. Maybe Ohio needs better driver's training.


I'm sure Ohio needs better training of both drivers and cyclists. But if
you claim the only salmon riders you've seen really were smelly sub
human types (am I putting words in your mouth?) I think you're
forgetting more than a few. The behavior isn't seen every day, but it's
common enough to have its own nickname.

True story: The last salmon rider I saw was out my window about two or
three days ago. She was a middle aged woman in normal clothes, not
cycling clothes. She was riding an upright handlebar "comfort bike",
heading south on my street, then turning left into the street that forms
a T intersection and continued on the left until she was out of sight.
Given our community, she was probably middle to upper class.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #280  
Old April 15th 21, 03:52 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joy Beeson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,638
Default Safety inflation

On Wed, 14 Apr 2021 09:23:33 +0700, John B.
wrote:

We get as lot of it here as most major roads in Bangkok are divided
highways with long distances between "U" turn openings so it is either
2 km that-a-way to a U turn and the same distance back or just scoot
down the wrong side of the road two blocks to your street.


I think that what you actually have there is a divided highway with a
two-way bike path on each shoulder.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

 




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