Thinking Outside The Box

On Feb 27, 8:24*am, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
James wrote:

When the motor vehicle sensing coils don't sense a bicycle, I don't take
a _chance_ it will be safe to proceed, I wait until it _is_ safe. Hell,
I look sideways even when the lights are in my favor!

Same here. *Wise move.


Exactly. What difference does it make what color the light is?
(Aside from the fact disregarding it may seem chaotic to an otherwise
unaffected observer.)

You talked about every (over)confident hotshot thinking they were
above average all that, but some of them still get creamed. Well,
some of the most law-abiding riders get creamed, too. What difference
does the light make (to my safety) if I am cognizant of the physics in
play? I can't run a *green* light if it isn't safe to do so. I *can*
run a red light if it is. Duh.

On Feb 27, 12:11*pm, Dan O wrote:
On Feb 27, 8:24*am, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

James wrote:

When the motor vehicle sensing coils don't sense a bicycle, I don't take
a _chance_ it will be safe to proceed, I wait until it _is_ safe. Hell,
I look sideways even when the lights are in my favor!

Same here. *Wise move.

Exactly. *What difference does it make what color the light is?
(Aside from the fact disregarding it may seem chaotic to an otherwise
unaffected observer.)

If it's red, as a practical matter you need to be aware of traffic
conditions AND the proximity of law enforcement.
DR

On Feb 27, 10:58*am, gpsman wrote:
On Feb 26, 1:58*pm, " wrote:



as I've tried to teach my kids, the reason you actually
stop at red lights and, especially, stop signs, since those carry more
"ignore" temptation, is so you can stop driving, or cycling, or even
walking, and pay attention to *looking*. Twice

You sound like a "driver".

Drive, and cycle, and walk. Don't want to get hit, don't want to hit
anyone, either.

Visual perception is not what motorists think it is, despite the fact
we've all experienced not seeing something that was right in front of
our faces.

I about got nailed once when riding when I didn't see a car I didn't
want to see. Close enough, and hell no the driver didn't slow down.
That was a life-changing moment, proof positive that I was as human as
the next guy. I already had my "look twice" rule firmly in place, but
ignored it. Well, that's why I had the rule g. Oops!
--D-y

On Feb 26, 10:21*pm, Chalo wrote:

If a cyclist runs a red light and gets smushed, my sympathies are more
with the motor vehicle operator. Not an experience to be wished on
anyone, and said in spite of the many times I've been used as a pylon
or otherwise "as an object of aggression".

Agreed. *The blithe idiot is not just hurting himself. *But I'm not in
charge of him. *Why should his stupidity dictate what I must do?

Y'all are doing a superb job of shifting the ethical burden of
piloting stinking death boxes from the offenders to the victims.

"Offenders" run red lights. The "eithical burden" you're speaking of
also involves not making a mess on law-abiding citizens' bumpers and
windshields, and not imposing a burden on the healthcare system by not
carrying insurance while driving, riding, or walking in an
irresponsible manner.

I'll agree that enforcement of law and "principle of law", to try to
express a sense of responsibility for actions, are sorely lacking.
Yup, you can kill or severely injure another human being in a variety
of manners, not just by driving a "stinking death box", and skate-- or
at least not pay much of a penalty, compared to what happens to the
victim.
Life, it turns out, is cheap, no matter what they taught you in school
g.
--D-y

add genocide

ask yourself ! whosah goona run lights ?

Dan O wrote:
On Feb 27, 8:24 am, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
James wrote:

When the motor vehicle sensing coils don't sense a bicycle, I don't
take a _chance_ it will be safe to proceed, I wait until it _is_
safe. Hell, I look sideways even when the lights are in my favor!

Same here. Wise move.


Exactly. What difference does it make what color the light is?
(Aside from the fact disregarding it may seem chaotic to an otherwise
unaffected observer.)

You talked about every (over)confident hotshot thinking they were
above average all that, but some of them still get creamed. Well,
some of the most law-abiding riders get creamed, too. What difference
does the light make (to my safety) if I am cognizant of the physics in
play? I can't run a *green* light if it isn't safe to do so. I *can*
run a red light if it is. Duh.

Dan O,
Since you asked - some differences:
If you run a red light on your bicycle, it creates or reinforces the image
that some motorists have that all bicycle riders are law offenders and
should be treated as such.
If you run a red light on your bicycle, it models this potentially risky
behavior for others, who may not be so cognizent, and are hurt when
emulating you.
If you run a red light on your bicycle, it models unlawful behavior for the
more impressionable members of our society, particularly children.
Kerry

On Feb 27, 9:50*am, Phil W Lee wrote:
Jay Beattie considered Mon, 27 Feb 2012
07:18:04 -0800 (PST) the perfect time to write:





On Feb 26, 10:06*pm, Joe Riel wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:
So I obey traffic lights, with very
rare exceptions. *Works for me.

So what do you guys do when the lights don't switch
for you? * I'll turn left on a red arrow if I didn't
get the green when I should, the straight-through is green,
and it is safe to proceed. *I just treat it like an
uncontrolled left-turn.

I do that too, but I've hunted all through the vehicle code and not
been able to find anything that says that I can do it legally. *The
only relevant exception to not following a traffic control device is
when you are signaled through by a cop, at least in Oregon.

-- Jay Beattie.

I'm surprised there's no exception covering faulty lights, as we have
here in the UK. *This legitimises proceeding through a light that
fails to detect your presence (although you have to wait long enough
to be sure it hasn't).- Hide quoted text -

There is an exception relating to traffic control signs that are not
conspicuous as required under a different chapter (not the vehicle
code), but I found nothing dealing with lights that were
malfunctioning or that would not cycle. If Frank has a UVC cite, I
could see if there is an Oregon VC corollary. -- Jay Beattie.

On Feb 27, 6:49*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Feb 27, 9:50*am, Phil W Lee wrote:









Jay Beattie considered Mon, 27 Feb 2012
07:18:04 -0800 (PST) the perfect time to write:

On Feb 26, 10:06*pm, Joe Riel wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:
So I obey traffic lights, with very
rare exceptions. *Works for me.

So what do you guys do when the lights don't switch
for you? * I'll turn left on a red arrow if I didn't
get the green when I should, the straight-through is green,
and it is safe to proceed. *I just treat it like an
uncontrolled left-turn.

I do that too, but I've hunted all through the vehicle code and not
been able to find anything that says that I can do it legally. *The
only relevant exception to not following a traffic control device is
when you are signaled through by a cop, at least in Oregon.

-- Jay Beattie.

I'm surprised there's no exception covering faulty lights, as we have
here in the UK. *This legitimises proceeding through a light that
fails to detect your presence (although you have to wait long enough
to be sure it hasn't).- Hide quoted text -

There is an exception relating to traffic control signs that are not
conspicuous as required under a different chapter (not the vehicle
code), but I found nothing dealing with lights that were
malfunctioning or that would not cycle. If Frank has a UVC cite, I
could see if there is an Oregon VC corollary. -- Jay Beattie.

For Phil: In the U.S., traffic laws are enacted by the individual
states, and thus vary somewhat state by state. The Uniform Vehicle
Code is provided as a model, and most states probably match it at
least 95%. But particularly regarding bicycles, many states have
exercised some ill-advised creativity.

For Jay: I didn't check, but I suspect the UVC has nothing about
dealing with a stuck red light. Ohio law allows proceeding reasonably
if the signal displays no light at all, or an impossible combination
of lights, but that's not the same thing. In theory, a stuck red
would generate an immovable queue of all vehicles that encountered it!

The Ohio Bicycle Federation has had a proposal out (i.e. carefully
chosen replacement wording) for about two years to fix that problem,
as well as some others. Unfortunately, we've been disappointed in
getting a legislator to sponsor such a bill. One legislator did check
our all our proposals, but instead of sponsoring the entire group, as
in the past, the legislator picked only one low-priority item and
didn't push that very hard. We're still trying.

- Frank Krygowski

AHD Fu

BUTT if yawl run red lights, practice running rREd lights the yawl get
good at what ?

I have amove in the rain for the ONNNNNNNRAMMMMMMMMPPPPPP

WHERE I get the 401 goin 75+, give the pattern a quick analysis, and
ifn there's a hole
THROW it across 3-4 lanes to the thru lane and accelrate.
great fun.

On Feb 27, 5:17*pm, " wrote:

I about got nailed once when riding when I didn't see a car I didn't
want to see. Close enough, and hell no the driver didn't slow down.
That was a life-changing moment, proof positive that I was as human as
the next guy. I already had my "look twice" rule firmly in place, but
ignored it. Well, that's why I had the rule g. Oops!
--D-y

The scariest moment for me, personally, was during three+ weeks
cycling Ireland. After weeks, I was sure I was well-used to the
driving on the left, but at one blind corner stop sign, my brain
somehow reverted to U.S. geometry. I looked at an oncoming car and
somehow thought "he's moving away from me" or something. Fortunately,
it wasn't close to a crash, but it scared me well awake.

Even scarier was a ride with several friends plus our son when he was
about eleven. Six of us had been waiting about 30 seconds to cross a
divided four lane, chatting as we waited for traffic to clear. Our
son suddenly and inexplicably started to ride forward on his own, into
the path of an oncoming semi. Of course we all yelled, the driver hit
brakes and horn, and our kid stopped, but it was terrifying.

Last scary example: Either last year or the year before, one of the
national Board members of the League of American Bicyclists was killed
when he suddenly turned left on his bike directly in front of an
oncoming car. This despite a lifelong reputation for safety
consciousness and terrific competence. Tragic, and especially so
because he was one of the genuine good guys.

- Frank Krygowski