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my fixie doesn't need improvement



 
 
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  #31  
Old February 18th 18, 03:37 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joy Beeson
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Default my fixie doesn't need improvement


My reply was so off-topic that I posted it in rec.bicycles.misc.


--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
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  #32  
Old February 18th 18, 06:25 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tim McNamara
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Posts: 6,788
Default my fixie doesn't need improvement

On Fri, 16 Feb 2018 19:48:27 -0600, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/16/2018 5:16 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:
Oh thank god! More skills I no longer have to trouble myself to
learn and master!

Forth ignorami! First Congress, then the Oval Office and now the
ultimate dumb ceiling is smashed: mountain biking! No longer will
the smart and expert be better than me at doing things!


https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23585.Why_Not_Me_


Al, as it turned out, was a little too good at staying in touch with his
constituents.
  #33  
Old February 18th 18, 07:55 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 192
Default my fixie doesn't need improvement

Op zaterdag 17 februari 2018 23:47:07 UTC+1 schreef jbeattie:
On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 1:05:08 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 8:57:49 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-17 01:28, wrote:
On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 7:32:10 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:

[...]


Actually, in some situations ye olde friction shifters are better
than anything that came later. In situations where you must quickly
shift from a very high gear straight to almost the lowest, that can
be achieved in about one second simple by an opposite flick of
thumb and index finger on the downtube levers. Only with friction
shifters. Ok, a Rohloff or a similar hub transmission could also do
that. Can Di2?

Of course.


So give us some numbers here, in seconds. How long does it take to shift
from large-small to small large, in one swoop? Faster than this below?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SHJ7KoJIys


3-3.5 sec. (11 speed ) under full load and out of the saddle if you want (it will make some noise) and the FD is trimmed after that. You can shift front and rear at the same time.

I can shift a lot faster than that with friction shifters. Not with
indexed ones on the handlebar or drifters.


I don't think so. One may have some reasons to prefer friction shifters but speed of shifting can't be a reason. Strange that Pro riders don't use friction shifters anymore because they like fast shifting.


And it doesn't matter in the real world, at least not on the road. The perfect example is the Cat's Hill Criterium in Los Gatos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrG12-aG_Xc It has a hard left (or right, depending on the year) up a 20% climb on Nicholson Ave. Back in the '70s, when everyone was on friction, the set up before the hill was everyone shifting up to their last gear -- a 19 or 21 -- a second before the turn, coasting through turn and then over-spinning until momentum was lost and then out of the saddle grinding. You hit the top, flop down into the saddle, bobble for your gears and then drop it one or two cogs. Nowadays with STI and Di2 that can shift under load, you don't need to run up the cassette before you hit a hill. You keep your hands on the bars, shift up as you're hitting the bottom of the hill and keep shift as momentum wanes and the grade sets in. You can shift out of the saddle as you go unlike friction shifting.

The same goes with shifting to the small cog. Back in the day, you would hump up some hill out of the saddle, and assuming the hill had a short enough crest, you would spin across it and then dump the freewheel over the other side. These days, you can stay out of the saddle and shift down for the flat crest and keep shifting over the other side. The dope with friction is in your rear-view mirror.

The reason you had to shift the whole freewheel is that you couldn't get to your shifters once the hill went up or down or because you couldn't shift under load. For those on modern equipment, those concerns are a thing of the past. Shifting into your spokes is also a thing of the past for the most part -- or missing a shift.

Like I said, STI changed racing. I raced before and after, and it was like night and day for someone like me who climbed out of the saddle. Crank, crank, crank, flop down into the saddle get the next gear, stand up . . . rinse, lather, repeat. In crits there was no longer that pack-wide wobble as everyone reached down to shift coming out of a corner or into a corner. That brings up another point. Crits got faster (and I got older) with people sprinting and shifting out of corners.

-- Jay Beattie.


That is an accurate description how it went in the old days. For me 30 years ago. I know no serious cyclists these days that do not allow themselves STI shifters or the like because they can break and keep riding Fred Flintstone bikes. Only people that are into vintage do.

Lou
  #34  
Old February 18th 18, 02:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_4_]
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Posts: 1,312
Default my fixie doesn't need improvement

wrote:
Op zaterdag 17 februari 2018 23:47:07 UTC+1 schreef jbeattie:
On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 1:05:08 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 8:57:49 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-17 01:28, wrote:
On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 7:32:10 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:

[...]


Actually, in some situations ye olde friction shifters are better
than anything that came later. In situations where you must quickly
shift from a very high gear straight to almost the lowest, that can
be achieved in about one second simple by an opposite flick of
thumb and index finger on the downtube levers. Only with friction
shifters. Ok, a Rohloff or a similar hub transmission could also do
that. Can Di2?

Of course.


So give us some numbers here, in seconds. How long does it take to shift
from large-small to small large, in one swoop? Faster than this below?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SHJ7KoJIys


3-3.5 sec. (11 speed ) under full load and out of the saddle if you
want (it will make some noise) and the FD is trimmed after that. You
can shift front and rear at the same time.

I can shift a lot faster than that with friction shifters. Not with
indexed ones on the handlebar or drifters.

I don't think so. One may have some reasons to prefer friction
shifters but speed of shifting can't be a reason. Strange that Pro
riders don't use friction shifters anymore because they like fast shifting.


And it doesn't matter in the real world, at least not on the road. The
perfect example is the Cat's Hill Criterium in Los Gatos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrG12-aG_Xc It has a hard left (or
right, depending on the year) up a 20% climb on Nicholson Ave. Back in
the '70s, when everyone was on friction, the set up before the hill was
everyone shifting up to their last gear -- a 19 or 21 -- a second before
the turn, coasting through turn and then over-spinning until momentum
was lost and then out of the saddle grinding. You hit the top, flop down
into the saddle, bobble for your gears and then drop it one or two cogs.
Nowadays with STI and Di2 that can shift under load, you don't need to
run up the cassette before you hit a hill. You keep your hands on the
bars, shift up as you're hitting the bottom of the hill and keep shift
as momentum wanes and the grade sets in. You can shift out of the
saddle as you go unlike friction shifting.

The same goes with shifting to the small cog. Back in the day, you
would hump up some hill out of the saddle, and assuming the hill had a
short enough crest, you would spin across it and then dump the freewheel
over the other side. These days, you can stay out of the saddle and
shift down for the flat crest and keep shifting over the other side. The
dope with friction is in your rear-view mirror.

The reason you had to shift the whole freewheel is that you couldn't get
to your shifters once the hill went up or down or because you couldn't
shift under load. For those on modern equipment, those concerns are a
thing of the past. Shifting into your spokes is also a thing of the past
for the most part -- or missing a shift.

Like I said, STI changed racing. I raced before and after, and it was
like night and day for someone like me who climbed out of the saddle.
Crank, crank, crank, flop down into the saddle get the next gear, stand
up . . . rinse, lather, repeat. In crits there was no longer that
pack-wide wobble as everyone reached down to shift coming out of a
corner or into a corner. That brings up another point. Crits got faster
(and I got older) with people sprinting and shifting out of corners.

-- Jay Beattie.


That is an accurate description how it went in the old days. For me 30
years ago. I know no serious cyclists these days that do not allow
themselves STI shifters or the like because they can break and keep
riding Fred Flintstone bikes. Only people that are into vintage do.

Lou


+1

--
duane
  #35  
Old February 18th 18, 03:43 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 5,792
Default my fixie doesn't need improvement

On 2/18/2018 2:55 AM, wrote:
I know no serious cyclists these days that do not allow themselves STI shifters or the like because they can break and keep riding Fred Flintstone bikes. Only people that are into vintage do.


Perhaps it depends on your definition of a "serious cyclist."

I have no STI-style shifters. I have some bikes with index shifting, but
the two bikes I ride most often still have friction shifters.

It's not because I'm into vintage bikes (although some of my bikes are
very old indeed). It's primarily because what I have keeps on working
just fine for my purposes. And in general, I value versatility,
reliability and repairability.

I recall an answer that Frank Berto gave in his bike tech Q&A column
back in the early 1990s. A person asked how to convert his Cannondale
touring bike (like the one I own) to index shifting. Frank Berto said,
essentially, "Why? Don't bother. Your bike shifts great. It's not worth
the trouble."

And illogical or not, I do worry about this
most-complicated-mechanism-on-a-bike breaking. I've had to replace
broken shift cables far, far from home, but I don't know if I could pull
it off with STI. I've also had to help fix the STI shifters of two
friends, one being on a brand new bike bought just a couple days before.
The friend was leaving that day on a long bike tour and the shop was
closed. Those incidents didn't inspire confidence.

Granted, those things happened long ago. I have countless friends with
STI (etc.) and no problems. I suppose if I were to buy another bike now,
I'd get STI-style shifting. But it seems like a dozen or so bikes is
enough for one household.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #36  
Old February 18th 18, 03:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 5,030
Default my fixie doesn't need improvement

On 2018-02-17 13:05, wrote:
On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 8:57:49 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-17 01:28,
wrote:
On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 7:32:10 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:


[...]


Actually, in some situations ye olde friction shifters are
better than anything that came later. In situations where you
must quickly shift from a very high gear straight to almost the
lowest, that can be achieved in about one second simple by an
opposite flick of thumb and index finger on the downtube
levers. Only with friction shifters. Ok, a Rohloff or a similar
hub transmission could also do that. Can Di2?

Of course.



So give us some numbers here, in seconds. How long does it take to
shift from large-small to small large, in one swoop? Faster than
this below?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SHJ7KoJIys


3-3.5 sec.



See? Just what I said, this is _way_ slower than good and well
maintained friction shifters. My road bike is only 7-speed but Di2 would
never be able to rival the shifting speed of friction. Brifters, yes,
but it can't hold a candle to friction.


... (11 speed ) under full load and out of the saddle if you
want (it will make some noise) and the FD is trimmed after that. You
can shift front and rear at the same time.


You can shift front plus back with just about any other shifter as well
and I do that a lot.


I can shift a lot faster than that with friction shifters. Not
with indexed ones on the handlebar or drifters.


I don't think so.



It is so. Have you ever had them?


.. ... One may have some reasons to prefer friction
shifters but speed of shifting can't be a reason. Strange that Pro
riders don't use friction shifters anymore because they like fast
shifting.


That is because in Europe "pro" means road racing. I have always
preferred paths off the beaten track even well before there were mounain
bikes.



Maybe you have the Di2-n version with a nuclear drive ...


No just standard Ultegra Di2.


Yes, and it's slow.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #37  
Old February 18th 18, 04:05 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 5,030
Default my fixie doesn't need improvement

On 2018-02-17 18:28, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 20:19:24 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/17/2018 2:58 PM, Joerg wrote:

So give us some numbers here, in seconds. How long does it take to shift
from large-small to small large, in one swoop? Faster than this below?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SHJ7KoJIys

I can shift a lot faster than that with friction shifters. Not with
indexed ones on the handlebar or brifters.


With friction, you may be able to slam a shift faster across the entire
cassette under the right circumstances. But that tiny time advantage
will be lost after just a few normal shifts.

It doesn't matter to me for my riding. I still use friction shifters on
several bikes. But I certainly don't do it because of faster shifts.


I even read a description of shifting both front and rear derailers at
the same time. Reach across the frame, thumb on one shifter, finger on
the other.



That's what I wrote elsewhere in this thread and it is what I do a lot.
With one hand while the other remains on the handlebar. A friend had a
bike with its the friction levers on the stem so you could operate them
with your thumbs while leaving both hands on the top bar.


Twist your hand and shift the rear derailer from the
smallest cog to the largest and with the same movement the front from
the largest to the smallest.

Think how many time you shift from the highest gear to the lowest in
one fell swoop on your usual Sunday ride :-?



Not on my Sunday rides but it does on my weekday ride. I regularly stall
the MTB because I can't slam it from high to very low fast enough,
unless I know the terrain, am willing to pre-shift before the creek bed
and travel accordingly slower. So I try to "beat it" by shifting at the
last seconds when I think I'll have just enough time to get through all
the gears, with the double-ratcheting that Deore M591 RapidFire allows.
It ain't as "rapid fire" as friction. Sometimes it works, sometimes it
doesn't. Never had that problem with friction when in the days when I
used my road bike of dirt paths (had to).

That's when I wish I had a Rohloff. OTOH 1500 bucks dampens that desire
and on a full suspension MTB it would get complicated anyhow. Plus it
won't get me the same gear range.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #38  
Old February 18th 18, 04:13 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 5,030
Default my fixie doesn't need improvement

On 2018-02-17 17:10, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 12:04:58 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-02-17 10:31, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Fri, 16 Feb 2018 09:27:28 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-02-15 11:03, wrote:
Have you ever ridden or lived with a bike with electronic shifting?
I doubt it.

No but I have met a guy who had a battery fail mid-ride and then the
front DR quit. Which was just peachy in the mountainous region.

I don't see a problem:
https://www.google.com/search?q=usb++hand+crank+charger&tbm=isch
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=hand+crank+usb+charger
Or, build your own:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXmqs8DIHf8 (4:04)


You could also strap a little Honda generator onto the rear rack.


I'll assume that means you don't like the hand crank generator idea.

I have one and find it quite practical (although I've never had to use
it in a lighting emergency). It will deliver 5v at about 500ma for
furious cranking and 200ma at a comfortable rate. That's:
5v * 0.2A = 1 watt
The Shimano SM-BTR2 battery, that powers the Di2, is rated at 7.4v at
500 ma-hr:
https://www.cykelpartner.dk/shimano-di2-dura-ace-batteri-built-in-type_IBTDN1101.html
7.4 * 0.5 = 3.7 watt-hrs
It will take:
3.7 watt-hrs / 1 watt = 3.7 hrs
of moderate cranking to charge fully charge the battery. My guess(tm)
is that it will operate just fine at 25% of capacity, or about 1 hr of
cranking. Switch hands and take turns cranking the generator, and you
should be ok.


Then you could as well carry a spare battery, maybe a lighter one with
less capacity. Just like sensible riders carry spare AAA cells for their
rear lights.


Honda doesn't make miniature gas engine models, which are usually
custom built:
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=miniature+model+gasoline+engines



You can buy regular production versions off-the-shelf:

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/rcg-15cc...hp-1-54kw.html


I've been thinking of grafting a PM motor as a generator onto a string
trimmer motor. However, I think a steam engine, with a boiler that
will run on either a solar concentrator or open fire, might be more
interesting.


While cooking a nice pot of beans like I did yesterday over Manzanita fire.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #39  
Old February 18th 18, 04:18 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 192
Default my fixie doesn't need improvement

On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 4:47:46 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-17 13:05, wrote:
On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 8:57:49 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-17 01:28,
wrote:
On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 7:32:10 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:

[...]


Actually, in some situations ye olde friction shifters are
better than anything that came later. In situations where you
must quickly shift from a very high gear straight to almost the
lowest, that can be achieved in about one second simple by an
opposite flick of thumb and index finger on the downtube
levers. Only with friction shifters. Ok, a Rohloff or a similar
hub transmission could also do that. Can Di2?

Of course.


So give us some numbers here, in seconds. How long does it take to
shift from large-small to small large, in one swoop? Faster than
this below?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SHJ7KoJIys


3-3.5 sec.



See? Just what I said, this is _way_ slower than good and well
maintained friction shifters. My road bike is only 7-speed but Di2 would
never be able to rival the shifting speed of friction. Brifters, yes,
but it can't hold a candle to friction.


... (11 speed ) under full load and out of the saddle if you
want (it will make some noise) and the FD is trimmed after that. You
can shift front and rear at the same time.


You can shift front plus back with just about any other shifter as well
and I do that a lot.


I can shift a lot faster than that with friction shifters. Not
with indexed ones on the handlebar or drifters.


I don't think so.



It is so. Have you ever had them?


Of course, 30 years ago and I did all the things you describe and what Jay described. I would like to invite you on one of my off road trips and I'm confident that I kick your ass. Not because I am that good but only because your shifting will be slower every time.



. ... One may have some reasons to prefer friction
shifters but speed of shifting can't be a reason. Strange that Pro
riders don't use friction shifters anymore because they like fast
shifting.


That is because in Europe "pro" means road racing. I have always
preferred paths off the beaten track even well before there were mounain
bikes.


Even in Europe pro rider would benefit from faster shifting with your DT friction shifters and your technique.



Maybe you have the Di2-n version with a nuclear drive ...


No just standard Ultegra Di2.


Yes, and it's slow.


See the invitation above.

Lou
  #40  
Old February 18th 18, 05:26 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,030
Default my fixie doesn't need improvement

On 2018-02-18 08:18, wrote:
On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 4:47:46 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-17 13:05,
wrote:
On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 8:57:49 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-17 01:28,
wrote:
On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 7:32:10 PM UTC+1, Joerg
wrote:

[...]


Actually, in some situations ye olde friction shifters are
better than anything that came later. In situations where
you must quickly shift from a very high gear straight to
almost the lowest, that can be achieved in about one second
simple by an opposite flick of thumb and index finger on
the downtube levers. Only with friction shifters. Ok, a
Rohloff or a similar hub transmission could also do that.
Can Di2?

Of course.


So give us some numbers here, in seconds. How long does it take
to shift from large-small to small large, in one swoop? Faster
than this below?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SHJ7KoJIys


3-3.5 sec.



See? Just what I said, this is _way_ slower than good and well
maintained friction shifters. My road bike is only 7-speed but Di2
would never be able to rival the shifting speed of friction.
Brifters, yes, but it can't hold a candle to friction.


... (11 speed ) under full load and out of the saddle if you want
(it will make some noise) and the FD is trimmed after that. You
can shift front and rear at the same time.


You can shift front plus back with just about any other shifter as
well and I do that a lot.


I can shift a lot faster than that with friction shifters. Not
with indexed ones on the handlebar or drifters.

I don't think so.



It is so. Have you ever had them?


Of course, 30 years ago and I did all the things you describe and
what Jay described. I would like to invite you on one of my off road
trips and I'm confident that I kick your ass. Not because I am that
good but only because your shifting will be slower every time.


As I said now I have a mountain bike for offroad and don't have to
torture my road bike there anymore. Plus it's 6000 miles from here.




. ... One may have some reasons to prefer friction
shifters but speed of shifting can't be a reason. Strange that
Pro riders don't use friction shifters anymore because they like
fast shifting.


That is because in Europe "pro" means road racing. I have always
preferred paths off the beaten track even well before there were
mounain bikes.


Even in Europe pro rider would benefit from faster shifting with your
DT friction shifters and your technique.


On paved roads? Highly doubtful.

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 




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