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#11
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Taking the lane, roundabout version
On 24/05/14 09:52, Duane wrote:
James wrote: On 24/05/14 07:11, AMuzi wrote: They're the latest trend around here. Hugely expensive, use more land, everyone's friend or brother gets a cut and the 'designers' get to feel smug about 'improving America'. Oh, in the whipped cream on poop department, they now add sculpture, stonework, trees or such impedimenta in the middle so there are no clear sight lines. I just hate them and ride well out of my way to avoid the damned pernicious things. Sounds like they are poorly designed, or you're not using them well. I'm happy to ride through some here that have 3 roundabouts merged into one ... http://goo.gl/maps/SbhDO Like I said I think it depends on the traffic speed and congestion. Having them is series like that probably slows the cars down some. I think all roads are a 60km/h limit in the area. Adds a good measure of confusion ;-) The tangent design for high speed use is dangerous because it doesn't slow the approaching traffic sufficiently. The radial approach is best, and is talked about in the link Frank posted. I read it a few days ago. -- JS |
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#12
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Taking the lane, roundabout version
James wrote:
On 24/05/14 09:52, Duane wrote: James wrote: On 24/05/14 07:11, AMuzi wrote: They're the latest trend around here. Hugely expensive, use more land, everyone's friend or brother gets a cut and the 'designers' get to feel smug about 'improving America'. Oh, in the whipped cream on poop department, they now add sculpture, stonework, trees or such impedimenta in the middle so there are no clear sight lines. I just hate them and ride well out of my way to avoid the damned pernicious things. Sounds like they are poorly designed, or you're not using them well. I'm happy to ride through some here that have 3 roundabouts merged into one ... http://goo.gl/maps/SbhDO Like I said I think it depends on the traffic speed and congestion. Having them is series like that probably slows the cars down some. I think all roads are a 60km/h limit in the area. Adds a good measure of confusion ;-) The tangent design for high speed use is dangerous because it doesn't slow the approaching traffic sufficiently. The radial approach is best, and is talked about in the link Frank posted. I read it a few days ago. The link also talks about traffic speed being an issue and for me that's the main thing. You have cars entering into a turn at speed. As they're coming around you're trying to merge in on a bike. Even if they're coming at 60 and you humping at 30 it's a stretch. And around here speed limits are a suggestion. There's not really an issue if the traffic is slow enough and the point about radial entrance is a good one. But when the traffic is rolling at 60 or 70 coming up on a merging cyclist is not going to be fun for anyone. I try to avoid these. -- duane |
#13
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Taking the lane, roundabout version
Frank Krygowski writes:
On 5/23/2014 5:11 PM, AMuzi wrote about roundabouts: They're the latest trend around here. Hugely expensive, use more land, everyone's friend or brother gets a cut and the 'designers' get to feel smug about 'improving America'. Oh, in the whipped cream on poop department, they now add sculpture, stonework, trees or such impedimenta in the middle so there are no clear sight lines. I just hate them and ride well out of my way to avoid the damned pernicious things. Wow. I've found them to work really well. Besides the many we used in France, there's an ancient one in one of my favorite "ride there for lunch" towns, and they've just begun construction on the first one in my county. It happens to be on the road that used to be my commuting route. That last one is an intersection between two collector streets, each with just two lanes. It now has a traffic light, but eastbound traffic regularly backs up for three light cycles, corked by motorists wanting to turn left. North- or southbound traffic (the way I'd normally ride) gets loop detectors to trigger a green. I've had to phone to get them adjusted to detect my bike; and sometimes the loops failed due to being severed by potholes. I look forward to the roundabout. I think traffic flow will be much better. And I've never liked stopping for a red light (car, motorcycle, bike, whatever) when there's nobody using the other-direction green light. I don't mind reasonably small, one lane rotaries. As has been mentioned, the thing to do is to ride well to the left, so as not to be cut off by exiting drivers. Two-lane rotaries, however, I try to avoid, even when driving. Incidentally, one complaint I've heard is that roundabouts are more difficult for blind or handicapped pedestrians. But that intersection doesn't even have sidewalks, so if true, it may not be a problem there. Rotaries are more difficult for all pedestrians, because there is never even a short time when they clearly have the right of way. -- |
#14
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Taking the lane, roundabout version
On Friday, May 23, 2014 9:10:33 PM UTC-4, Radey wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes: I look forward to the roundabout. I think traffic flow will be much better. And I've never liked stopping for a red light (car, motorcycle, bike, whatever) when there's nobody using the other-direction green light. I don't mind reasonably small, one lane rotaries. As has been mentioned, the thing to do is to ride well to the left, so as not to be cut off by exiting drivers. Two-lane rotaries, however, I try to avoid, even when driving. I recall reading somewhere that single lane roundabouts are safer for cyclists (and motorists ) than ordinary light-controlled intersections; but that two-lane roundabouts tend to be more dangerous for cyclists. I'd guess that the main difference is speed. And I think a roundabout can't be considered well-designed unless it forces incoming motorists to adopt a pretty low speed - perhaps 20 mph max. - Frank Krygowski |
#15
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Taking the lane, roundabout version
On 5/23/2014 5:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/23/2014 5:11 PM, AMuzi wrote about roundabouts: They're the latest trend around here. Hugely expensive, use more land, everyone's friend or brother gets a cut and the 'designers' get to feel smug about 'improving America'. Oh, in the whipped cream on poop department, they now add sculpture, stonework, trees or such impedimenta in the middle so there are no clear sight lines. I just hate them and ride well out of my way to avoid the damned pernicious things. Wow. I've found them to work really well. Besides the many we used in France, there's an ancient one in one of my favorite "ride there for lunch" towns, and they've just begun construction on the first one in my county. It happens to be on the road that used to be my commuting route. That last one is an intersection between two collector streets, each with just two lanes. It now has a traffic light, but eastbound traffic regularly backs up for three light cycles, corked by motorists wanting to turn left. North- or southbound traffic (the way I'd normally ride) gets loop detectors to trigger a green. I've had to phone to get them adjusted to detect my bike; and sometimes the loops failed due to being severed by potholes. I look forward to the roundabout. I think traffic flow will be much better. And I've never liked stopping for a red light (car, motorcycle, bike, whatever) when there's nobody using the other-direction green light. Incidentally, one complaint I've heard is that roundabouts are more difficult for blind or handicapped pedestrians. But that intersection doesn't even have sidewalks, so if true, it may not be a problem there. It now has a traffic light, but eastbound traffic regularly backs up for three light cycles, corked by motorists wanting to turn left. The usual answer to traffic stacking up for a left is a left green arrow. Surprised no one thought of that. Hard to rake off a piece of such a small contract I suppose. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#16
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Taking the lane, roundabout version
AMuzi wrote:
:The usual answer to traffic stacking up for a left is a left :green arrow. Surprised no one thought of that. Hard to rake ff a piece of such a small contract I suppose. Requires much more space, and it's typically more expensive to rebuild an intersection to add turn signals than it is to build a roundabout, particularly if you have to acquire the property that the turn lanes require. A roundabout might look bigger, but there's no need for extra lanes outside of the intersection itself. The long term costs of running a traffic light are around $10K a year, the cost of a roundaobout is close to zero. -- sig 23 |
#17
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Taking the lane, roundabout version
Frank Krygowski writes:
On Friday, May 23, 2014 9:10:33 PM UTC-4, Radey wrote: Frank Krygowski writes: I look forward to the roundabout. I think traffic flow will be much better. And I've never liked stopping for a red light (car, motorcycle, bike, whatever) when there's nobody using the other-direction green light. I don't mind reasonably small, one lane rotaries. As has been mentioned, the thing to do is to ride well to the left, so as not to be cut off by exiting drivers. Two-lane rotaries, however, I try to avoid, even when driving. I recall reading somewhere that single lane roundabouts are safer for cyclists (and motorists ) than ordinary light-controlled intersections; but that two-lane roundabouts tend to be more dangerous for cyclists. I'd guess that the main difference is speed. And I think a roundabout can't be considered well-designed unless it forces incoming motorists to adopt a pretty low speed - perhaps 20 mph max. That has not been my experience. Higher speed does make life more difficult for cyclists, but more lanes is qualitatively different. The multiple lane rotaries with which I am familiar are located on large wanna-be divided highway arterials. Drivers on the inside lane tend to assume that those on the outside lane will follow their lead in taking the most common exit. Which means that to safely cross the rotary from one minor road to another requires crossing the outside lane, moving as fast as possible in the inside lane, then crossing the outside lane again before one's exit. I haven't tried that on a bicycle, nor will I. -- |
#18
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Taking the lane, roundabout version
On Fri, 23 May 2014 12:10:42 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
More benefits of being visible, at lane center: A paper from Australia notes that car-bike crashes in roundabouts seem to occur mostly when cyclists stick to the edge and aren't noticed by motorists. They recommend that any bike lanes end well before the roundabout, and that cyclists ride in a very visible position, near the center of the roundabout. (They're talking about single-lane roundabouts, I'm sure.) The abstract link came from a friend in Oz. Full disclosu I haven't yet read the paper itself. https://www.onlinepublications.austr...ems/AP-R461-14 In France, we bicycled (and drove) through many, many roundabouts without problems. Only in Troyes did we see bike lanes painted in the outer edge of roundabouts. Troyes also had many other hare-brained "innovative" bike facilities. I'm sure the town was very proud of them. I'm in different about bikers, but when I see one encroaching on the white line, I will encroach right back. You're risking my life by being a road hazard. I don't take that lightly. You're not a motor vehicle, so don't expect to be treated like one. You're road debris in the way. 100% stay out of the way because you don't own the road, nor do you pay any taxes on your cycle to suggest you have a right to drive on the inside of the white line. You're not doing anyone a favor, other than yourself, by riding your bike. Don't expect me to feel that I have to recognize you as anything other than a self entitled ninny. |
#19
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Taking the lane, roundabout version
THE ROUNDBOUT
late braking is crucial outbrake going down the inside then move slightly left, intimidating the outside traffic then turn in sliding rear outwar again toward the outside. be smooth. ACCELERATE ! |
#20
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Taking the lane, roundabout version
On 7/27/2014 5:07 AM, Tremayne A Higby wrote:
On Fri, 23 May 2014 12:10:42 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: More benefits of being visible, at lane center: A paper from Australia notes that car-bike crashes in roundabouts seem to occur mostly when cyclists stick to the edge and aren't noticed by motorists. They recommend that any bike lanes end well before the roundabout, and that cyclists ride in a very visible position, near the center of the roundabout. (They're talking about single-lane roundabouts, I'm sure.) The abstract link came from a friend in Oz. Full disclosu I haven't yet read the paper itself. https://www.onlinepublications.austr...ems/AP-R461-14 In France, we bicycled (and drove) through many, many roundabouts without problems. Only in Troyes did we see bike lanes painted in the outer edge of roundabouts. Troyes also had many other hare-brained "innovative" bike facilities. I'm sure the town was very proud of them. I'm in different about bikers, but when I see one encroaching on the white line, I will encroach right back. You're risking my life by being a road hazard. I don't take that lightly. You're not a motor vehicle, so don't expect to be treated like one. You're road debris in the way. 100% stay out of the way because you don't own the road, nor do you pay any taxes on your cycle to suggest you have a right to drive on the inside of the white line. You're not doing anyone a favor, other than yourself, by riding your bike. Don't expect me to feel that I have to recognize you as anything other than a self entitled ninny. You "encroach right back" while riding your bicycle? I've done that too, especially for wrong-way riders in my lane while sporting locked elbows and my icy stare of death. Doing that to a cyclist while in your car is highly irresponsible to the point of possible criminality. You ought to ponder the catastrophic effects of minor errors before doing that again. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
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