MTB disc brake caused wild fire

On 2018-04-06 07:57, Duane wrote:
On 06/04/2018 10:26 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-05 09:33, Duane wrote:
On 04/04/2018 1:34 PM, Joerg wrote:

[...]

I try not to follow other riders closely and generally use the 2-3
seconds rule for safety distances like one uses when driving a car. It
also makes me uncomfortable if others draft me at higher speed. I
understand the motivation behind it, it's just not safe when there is
a chance of a sudden speed change. Car pulling out in front of me,
deer jumping into the path, tire blow-out, etc.


At a typical cruising speed of 30k/h, you leave 8-12 meters between
riders?


More like 50ft or 15 meters unless the other rider is aware of me and
I know the rider well. On singletrack in the summer 100-200ft but that
has to do with dust kicked up by riders in front.


So most of what you are advising is worthless for group riding.


This sub-thread was about emergency braking procedures. The guys in Utah
were not group-riding.

[..]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 06/04/2018 11:05 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-06 07:57, Duane wrote:
On 06/04/2018 10:26 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-05 09:33, Duane wrote:
On 04/04/2018 1:34 PM, Joerg wrote:

[...]

I try not to follow other riders closely and generally use the 2-3
seconds rule for safety distances like one uses when driving a car. It
also makes me uncomfortable if others draft me at higher speed. I
understand the motivation behind it, it's just not safe when there is
a chance of a sudden speed change. Car pulling out in front of me,
deer jumping into the path, tire blow-out, etc.


At a typical cruising speed of 30k/h, you leave 8-12 meters between
riders?


More like 50ft or 15 meters unless the other rider is aware of me and
I know the rider well. On singletrack in the summer 100-200ft but that
has to do with dust kicked up by riders in front.


So most of what you are advising is worthless for group riding.


This sub-thread was about emergency braking procedures. The guys in Utah
were not group-riding.

[..]


I was responding to the above comment. Though I expect most people
racing don't slow down to leave your 15 meter gap.

On Friday, April 6, 2018 at 8:05:12 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-06 07:57, Duane wrote:
On 06/04/2018 10:26 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-05 09:33, Duane wrote:
On 04/04/2018 1:34 PM, Joerg wrote:

[...]

I try not to follow other riders closely and generally use the 2-3
seconds rule for safety distances like one uses when driving a car. It
also makes me uncomfortable if others draft me at higher speed. I
understand the motivation behind it, it's just not safe when there is
a chance of a sudden speed change. Car pulling out in front of me,
deer jumping into the path, tire blow-out, etc.


At a typical cruising speed of 30k/h, you leave 8-12 meters between
riders?


More like 50ft or 15 meters unless the other rider is aware of me and
I know the rider well. On singletrack in the summer 100-200ft but that
has to do with dust kicked up by riders in front.


So most of what you are advising is worthless for group riding.


This sub-thread was about emergency braking procedures. The guys in Utah
were not group-riding.

[..]

What? The guys in Utah were racing, which is group riding -- unless you suck, and then it is time-trialing or rolling back to the broom wagon, dejected. The sub-thread was about imaginary "instinctual" braking of the few who, like you, are trained in the dark, braking arts. For the rest of us, the video shows ordinary descending technique except for one rider who was totally out of control and mispositioned for a nasty drop-off of a tight left turn. The uproar was about you suggesting that the one rider -- a continental pro and four time Irish road champion -- somehow knows less about descending than you because he didn't brake with his belly on the saddle, something that nobody does -- except maybe you, assuming you have ape-like arms. https://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/...-on-a-bicycle/
When asked about your descending cred, the comeback was that you descend slowly because its dangerous and that you gap-off the next rider by 50 feet. Then we get to hear about how you had to hard brake once to avoid a deer. O.K. That's probably as good as riding 12K miles a year for a decade or more as a pro-continental racer -- in packs on treacherous Alpine descents on 23/25mm tubulars.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 2018-04-06 08:50, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 6, 2018 at 8:05:12 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-06 07:57, Duane wrote:
On 06/04/2018 10:26 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-05 09:33, Duane wrote:
On 04/04/2018 1:34 PM, Joerg wrote:

[...]

I try not to follow other riders closely and generally use
the 2-3 seconds rule for safety distances like one uses
when driving a car. It also makes me uncomfortable if
others draft me at higher speed. I understand the
motivation behind it, it's just not safe when there is a
chance of a sudden speed change. Car pulling out in front
of me, deer jumping into the path, tire blow-out, etc.


At a typical cruising speed of 30k/h, you leave 8-12 meters
between riders?


More like 50ft or 15 meters unless the other rider is aware of
me and I know the rider well. On singletrack in the summer
100-200ft but that has to do with dust kicked up by riders in
front.


So most of what you are advising is worthless for group riding.


This sub-thread was about emergency braking procedures. The guys in
Utah were not group-riding.

[..]

What? The guys in Utah were racing, which is group riding ...


They were not. Neither drafting nor even in a peloton. They came down
that hill one by one.


... -- unless
you suck, and then it is time-trialing or rolling back to the broom
wagon, dejected.


scratching head

Not sure what you mean by that.


... The sub-thread was about imaginary "instinctual"
braking of the few who, like you, are trained in the dark, braking
arts. For the rest of us, the video shows ordinary descending
technique except for one rider who was totally out of control and
mispositioned for a nasty drop-off of a tight left turn. The uproar
was about you suggesting that the one rider -- a continental pro and
four time Irish road champion -- somehow knows less about descending
than you because he didn't brake with his belly on the saddle,
something that nobody does -- except maybe you, assuming you have
ape-like arms.
https://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/...-on-a-bicycle/


My arms are roughly like Jan's. Are his ape-like?


When asked about your descending cred, the comeback was that you
descend slowly because its dangerous and that you gap-off the next
rider by 50 feet. Then we get to hear about how you had to hard
brake once to avoid a deer. O.K. That's probably as good as riding
12K miles a year for a decade or more as a pro-continental racer --
in packs on treacherous Alpine descents on 23/25mm tubulars.


I ride only 4k miles/year but I sure know how to decelerate quickly if
in a pinch. That has nothing to do with speed, it can be as important at
20mph or 40mph as it can be at 60mph. Some of my cases were car drivers
pulling out into the road, seeing me or my lights and instead of
stepping on it they froze in place.

And yes, I believe in safe distance as we were taught in driver's ed. A
bicycle is not a miracle machine that can make the risk of "tail-gating"
vanish.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/4/2018 1:34 PM, Joerg wrote:


I try not to follow other riders closely and generally use the 2-3
seconds rule for safety distances like one uses when driving a car. It
also makes me uncomfortable if others draft me at higher speed. I
understand the motivation behind it, it's just not safe when there is a
chance of a sudden speed change. Car pulling out in front of me, deer
jumping into the path, tire blow-out, etc.

If you're using the 2-3 second rule when riding with others, you're not
riding with others. And if drafting is too dangerous for you, you're
not much of a rider.

You should not draft squirrely, unsteady riders. You should not ride too
close to people like that. But there are thousands of avid riders every
day who enjoy each others' company and/or have fun competing and
training or just touring.

My wife completed her first century (in 1976) specifically because we
worked well as a team. I was good at towing her and she was good at
drafting me. She probably wouldn't have completed it otherwise.

Yes, it's possible to do all your riding solo, but its not as much fun.
And fear of riding near others indicates less competence on the bike.



Drafting or tailgating are essentially the same thing, hyper milers use it
in cars as well, it’s more acceptable for roadies but doesn’t make it
safer, clearly if your within thinking distance, hence the group crash’s
you see in races.

Roger Merriman

On Saturday, April 7, 2018 at 2:38:10 AM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:

Drafting or tailgating are essentially the same thing, hyper milers use it
in cars as well, it’s more acceptable for roadies but doesn’t make it
safer, clearly if your within thinking distance, hence the group crash’s
you see in races.

I'm sure racing is much riskier than ordinary riding. And I'm sure that drafting
or riding side by side is somewhat more dangerous than riding separated by two
or three seconds.

By the same token, it's maybe a little safer to walk while wearing a clown
costume, install super-bright head and taillights on all kids' tricycles, never
shake hands with anybody, never go out in public without a surgical mask...

The question is, must we always do whatever is safest? Wouldn't it be more
logical to evaluate benefits vs. detriments?

- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, April 7, 2018 at 7:45:31 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, April 7, 2018 at 2:38:10 AM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:

Drafting or tailgating are essentially the same thing, hyper milers use it
in cars as well, it’s more acceptable for roadies but doesn’t make it
safer, clearly if your within thinking distance, hence the group crash’s
you see in races.

I'm sure racing is much riskier than ordinary riding. And I'm sure that drafting
or riding side by side is somewhat more dangerous than riding separated by two
or three seconds.

By the same token, it's maybe a little safer to walk while wearing a clown
costume, install super-bright head and taillights on all kids' tricycles, never
shake hands with anybody, never go out in public without a surgical mask....

The question is, must we always do whatever is safest? Wouldn't it be more
logical to evaluate benefits vs. detriments?

If you're drafting in a skilled pack, the risk of crashing is low. Crashes are often traction related or dogs, spectators, bollards, etc. Riders will tangle it up now and then, so that is a risk, and if that is an unacceptable risk, then you shouldn't race. I've never crashed doing a recreational ride with racers and former racers. It is a very safe riding environment -- except for the risk of heart attack or other self-inflicted injury.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Saturday, April 7, 2018 at 5:17:40 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, April 7, 2018 at 7:45:31 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, April 7, 2018 at 2:38:10 AM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:

Drafting or tailgating are essentially the same thing, hyper milers use it
in cars as well, it’s more acceptable for roadies but doesn’t make it
safer, clearly if your within thinking distance, hence the group crash’s
you see in races.

I'm sure racing is much riskier than ordinary riding. And I'm sure that drafting
or riding side by side is somewhat more dangerous than riding separated by two
or three seconds.

By the same token, it's maybe a little safer to walk while wearing a clown
costume, install super-bright head and taillights on all kids' tricycles, never
shake hands with anybody, never go out in public without a surgical mask...

The question is, must we always do whatever is safest? Wouldn't it be more
logical to evaluate benefits vs. detriments?

If you're drafting in a skilled pack, the risk of crashing is low. Crashes are often traction related or dogs, spectators, bollards, etc. Riders will tangle it up now and then, so that is a risk, and if that is an unacceptable risk, then you shouldn't race. I've never crashed doing a recreational ride with racers and former racers. It is a very safe riding environment -- except for the risk of heart attack or other self-inflicted injury.

-- Jay Beattie.

I should amend that -- I crashed over my son, but I think that was the only time.

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, April 7, 2018 at 2:38:10 AM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:

Drafting or tailgating are essentially the same thing, hyper milers use it
in cars as well, it’s more acceptable for roadies but doesn’t make it
safer, clearly if your within thinking distance, hence the group crash’s
you see in races.

I'm sure racing is much riskier than ordinary riding. And I'm sure that drafting
or riding side by side is somewhat more dangerous than riding separated by two
or three seconds.

By the same token, it's maybe a little safer to walk while wearing a clown
costume, install super-bright head and taillights on all kids' tricycles, never
shake hands with anybody, never go out in public without a surgical mask...

The question is, must we always do whatever is safest? Wouldn't it be more
logical to evaluate benefits vs. detriments?

- Frank Krygowski


Clearly there are benefits, in that it reduces drag, and is if club run or
mates it’s clearly more social.

But clearly also if your drafting you relying on riders to avoid hazards,
to tell you what’s happening, and not to break any more than gently. It’s
not just theoretical, hit somethings speed and it can and does for some,
end up life changing or ending.

That you can do something risky with out seemingly to pay for it, folks
tailgate at high speed and what not for years.

Personally I don’t like big groups, but am quite happy in small groups
though I tend not to close too close.

Roger Merriman

On Sunday, April 8, 2018 at 9:28:31 PM UTC+2, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, April 7, 2018 at 2:38:10 AM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:

Drafting or tailgating are essentially the same thing, hyper milers use it
in cars as well, it’s more acceptable for roadies but doesn’t make it
safer, clearly if your within thinking distance, hence the group crash’s
you see in races.

I'm sure racing is much riskier than ordinary riding. And I'm sure that drafting
or riding side by side is somewhat more dangerous than riding separated by two
or three seconds.

By the same token, it's maybe a little safer to walk while wearing a clown
costume, install super-bright head and taillights on all kids' tricycles, never
shake hands with anybody, never go out in public without a surgical mask...

The question is, must we always do whatever is safest? Wouldn't it be more
logical to evaluate benefits vs. detriments?

- Frank Krygowski


Clearly there are benefits, in that it reduces drag, and is if club run or
mates it’s clearly more social.

But clearly also if your drafting you relying on riders to avoid hazards,
to tell you what’s happening, and not to break any more than gently. It’s
not just theoretical, hit somethings speed and it can and does for some,
end up life changing or ending.

That you can do something risky with out seemingly to pay for it, folks
tailgate at high speed and what not for years.

Personally I don’t like big groups, but am quite happy in small groups
though I tend not to close too close.

Roger Merriman

Couple of years ago I was riding alone and catching up on a 10-15 man group.. I was negotiating with myself if I would ride with them home because there was a fierce headwind. I decided not to because they were a little bit slow, the group was too large (always people who don't pay attention or just hanging on) and I didn't trust the last riders. I think that was one of the better decision I made. They went left, I went right at the end of the road. When I was home I saw a post on a news website that a cyclist was killen that evening. Happened to be one of the guys of that group. The group had to overtake some people walking along the road while a truck was coming from the opposite direction. Classic front wheel/back wheel situation and that rider fell in front of the truck. In a split second he was done riding. It made quite an impression on me.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/OI5jRAGjjiroEkll2

From that moment I don't ride with unknown groups and groups larger than 10 people. There is a little memorial along side that road and every time I pass that it reminds me of my decision. **** happens but you can do your best to avoid it. YYMV.

Lou