Wafflycat in Cycling Weekly.

Jim Harvest wrote:

I won't be any good at either but I think doing audax first will
give me conditioning to do TTs at a later stage, rather than the other
way round.

Does that make sense?

No.

I guess if a TTer tries an Audax with no real Audax prep he's likely to
fail because he just can't keep going, where the Audax rider riding a 10
minute TT unprepared will certainly finish, but just in a really crap
time. Which is arguably a lesser degree of failure, but still...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On Jan 18, 8:22 am, Peter Clinch wrote:
Jim Harvest wrote:
I won't be any good at either but I think doing audax first will
give me conditioning to do TTs at a later stage, rather than the other
way round.

Does that make sense?

No.

I guess if a TTer tries an Audax with no real Audax prep he's likely to
fail because he just can't keep going, where the Audax rider riding a 10
minute TT unprepared will certainly finish, but just in a really crap
time. Which is arguably a lesser degree of failure, but still...

Indeed. The trick with an Audax is to take all day. The trick with a
TT is to do exactly the opposite.

An experienced audax rider should be able to do something in the 35
minute range with no speedwork training (17-18 mph average)
An experienced 10 rider (by which I mean someone who just rides short
distance high intensity rides) would find a 200k audax hard because
they do not have the skillset to manage pacing/nutrition etc over and
8-12 hour period. Audax, beyond a certain level of fitness, requires
mental training rather than physical.


...d

In ,
Jim Harvest tweaked the Babbage-Engine to tell us:

I won't be any good at either but I think doing audax first will
give me conditioning to do TTs at a later stage, rather than the other
way round.

Does that make sense?

Nah, mate, Audax makes you slow ;-) My quickest ever 200 was about the
second or third one I ever did and it's been steadily downhill from there...

--
Dave Larrington
http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
a yo-yo" - Enoch Root.

Peter Clinch wrote:

I guess if a TTer tries an Audax with no real Audax prep he's likely to
fail because he just can't keep going, where the Audax rider riding a 10
minute TT unprepared will certainly finish, but just in a really crap
time. Which is arguably a lesser degree of failure, but still...

Actually no. The TT will be fine as long as they can get their head
round riding slowly enough at the start and their bike is comfortable
enough that they can ride for long enough.

To paraphrase Andy Coggan: Training to raise the power/duration curve
will tend to lengthen it as well.

Sustainable power at any duration drops off in an exponential curve,
so if I can hold 300W for 5 mins, I can hold 250W for an hour and
150W for forever.

So training to raise speed for a TT isn't a bad way of training
for an audax. Even for a 10 you'll need to get some distance
in and the speed work will raise your sustainable power
over the longer durations. After that it's a matter of
being able to sit on the bike for long enough.

The converse doesn't hold.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
The struggle of people against power is the struggle
of memory against forgetting - Milan Kundera

On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 01:16:11 -0800 (PST), David Martin
wrote:


Indeed. The trick with an Audax is to take all day. The trick with a
TT is to do exactly the opposite.


Unless of course it's the Mersey Roads 24h.



--

Tim

fast and gripping, non pompous, glossy and credible.

x-no-archive:

snip

Thank you for all of the responses.

I am thinking more along the lines that I will never be able to a TT
in less than say 50 minutes without much high mileage conditioning to
burn fat. I have found in the past that high intensity exercise does
not get me very fit because my weight remains too high to achieve any
times that are remotely respectable. I have developed large leg
muscles from training at 10 mph and nearly managed to complete an
100k audax in the maximum time last year. Continued training should
eventually let me complete a 200k, by which time my weight should be
down to about 18 stone, which is the weight I can usually begin
running and where I think I might be able to do a sub 40 minute ten,
if I add some speed to my training.

I am of course talking about years, rather than training for a TT in a
few weeks, however, from the balance of responses above it looks like
I may have it a bit wrong.

In article 3bb9106e-96a3-486a-a26b-bebd4c9bfe83
@c23g2000hsa.googlegroups.com, Jim Harvest
says...

I am thinking more along the lines that I will never be able to a TT
in less than say 50 minutes without much high mileage conditioning to
burn fat. I have found in the past that high intensity exercise does
not get me very fit because my weight remains too high to achieve any
times that are remotely respectable.

Weight isn't particularly significant on a flattish course.

I have developed large leg muscles from training at 10 mph

I wonder if you're pushing too hard in too high a gear. A reasonable
cadence is around 80rpm.

and nearly managed to complete an
100k audax in the maximum time last year. Continued training should
eventually let me complete a 200k, by which time my weight should be
down to about 18 stone, which is the weight I can usually begin
running

IME running fitness has absolutely nothing to do with cycling fitness -
I've never been able to run, but I used to be a passable club time
triallist.

and where I think I might be able to do a sub 40 minute ten,
if I add some speed to my training.

If you have basic cardiovascular fitness then riding a 10 is just a
matter of figuring out the highest work rate that you can sustain for
the whole distance, and putting up with a bit of pain. :-)

x-no-archive:

Rob Morley wrote:
Weight isn't particularly significant on a flattish course.

I have *developed large leg muscles from training at 10 mph

I wonder if you're pushing too hard in too high a gear. *A reasonable
cadence is around 80rpm.

Both those points relate to the area I live in which is very hilly.
Lugging my weight uphill is one reason for only averaging 10 mph.

My cadence is 80 rpm, pretty much exactly, however, on a significant
portion of gradients I an unable to achieve that in my lowest gear,
which is about 23", and my bike will not take lower gears. I do
therefore spend some time mashing, though I always aim to go slow
enough to avoid getting breathless.




If you have basic cardiovascular fitness then riding a 10 is just a
matter of figuring out the highest work rate that you can sustain for
the whole distance, and putting up with a bit of pain. *:-)


Yes, I see, and I'm now coming round to the view that one trains
either for one event or the other. Nevertheless, it would still appear
that I will need to do high slow mileage training as well as fast work
if I wish to complete a borderline respectable TT.

In article a9967290-6942-4466-9325-
, Jim Harvest
says...

Both those points relate to the area I live in which is very hilly.
Lugging my weight uphill is one reason for only averaging 10 mph.

My cadence is 80 rpm, pretty much exactly, however, on a significant
portion of gradients I an unable to achieve that in my lowest gear,
which is about 23", and my bike will not take lower gears. I do
therefore spend some time mashing, though I always aim to go slow
enough to avoid getting breathless.

My time trial training consisted mainly of a hilly 10 mile commute - I
definitely wasn't riding slowly enough not to become breathless. :-)
Hills are natural interval training, which is great for building speed.
Try riding hills so you're about to explode just as you reach the top
(make sure you're warmed up first) but stay in the saddle as much as
possible and spin down the other side to shift the lactic acid from your
muscles.