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LBS owner's essay



 
 
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  #41  
Old August 3rd 20, 07:08 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sepp Ruf
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Posts: 382
Default LBS owner's essay

wrote:
On Monday, August 3, 2020 at 9:40:20 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 8/2/2020 6:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:

snip

I understood Mr Ruf to mean that a Sachs 2 speed of that era was
engineered with RH 10.5x26 thread.

I assume someone at F&S reasoned that your basic 9.5mm standard axle
would be less strong with a hole in the middle. Once that thread is
supported with tooling the next guy asks 'why not?'


Exactly.


+1

They no doubt found that 9.5mm was not sufficient with the
hole and determined that 10.5mm was optimal and didn't want something
as big as 12mm.

I guess they also found that 10mm was not sufficient. Who knows? And it
didn't really matter. They could specify the proper nuts to be
supplied.

They may have copied the Sturmey-Archer design but decided to go metric
instead of English and rounded up from 13/32" to 10.5mm.


When you engineer things you don't cut corners so that you need to
totally redesign something in the future. The 10.5 instead of a 12 made
about as much sense as your normal postings.


F&S were selling all kinds and sizes of hubs in the 1910's, including
"motor" hubs with 11, 13, and 14mm threaded axles, no threading details
known to me, unfortunately. Go ahead and ask Andrew or Aaron's how commonly
the 2 to 7 sp IGH's have failed because of 10.5 instead of 12mm. Eight
decades of engineers cutting corners was not what killed F&S. I only ever
broke any axles with the help of multi-sprockets freewheels, so I'm no expert.
Ads
  #42  
Old August 3rd 20, 11:52 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,120
Default LBS owner's essay

On 8/3/2020 1:08 PM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
wrote:
On Monday, August 3, 2020 at 9:40:20 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 8/2/2020 6:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:

snip

I understood Mr Ruf to mean that a Sachs 2 speed of that era was
engineered with RH 10.5x26 thread.

I assume someone at F&S reasoned that your basic 9.5mm standard axle
would be less strong with a hole in the middle. Once that thread is
supported with tooling the next guy asks 'why not?'

Exactly.


+1

They no doubt found that 9.5mm was not sufficient with the
hole and determined that 10.5mm was optimal and didn't want something
as big as 12mm.

I guess they also found that 10mm was not sufficient. Who knows? And it
didn't really matter. They could specify the proper nuts to be
supplied.

They may have copied the Sturmey-Archer design but decided to go metric
instead of English and rounded up from 13/32" to 10.5mm.


When you engineer things you don't cut corners so that you need to
totally redesign something in the future. The 10.5 instead of a 12 made
about as much sense as your normal postings.


F&S were selling all kinds and sizes of hubs in the 1910's, including
"motor" hubs with 11, 13, and 14mm threaded axles, no threading details
known to me, unfortunately. Go ahead and ask Andrew or Aaron's how commonly
the 2 to 7 sp IGH's have failed because of 10.5 instead of 12mm. Eight
decades of engineers cutting corners was not what killed F&S. I only ever
broke any axles with the help of multi-sprockets freewheels, so I'm no expert.


F&S made all sorts of things including bayonets for a
succession of German armies[1]

I assume that, despite claims here on RBT, there just wasn't
enough volume to sustain their well designed well made but
esoteric bicycle designs. All the gearboxes made in a year
don't equal a day of Shimano derailleur production.

I see a lot of broken things but gearbox broken axles are
not among them. Freewheel hub axles yes, all the while.

[1]girlfriend's uncle brought one home. It's hanging on her
wall. This one's a different era for a different army but
you get the idea:
https://static-img.gunstar.co.uk/adp...927529_img.jpg

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #43  
Old August 4th 20, 12:18 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,125
Default LBS owner's essay

On 8/3/2020 3:52 PM, AMuzi wrote:

snip

I assume that, despite claims here on RBT, there just wasn't enough
volume to sustain their well designed well made but esoteric bicycle
designs.* All the gearboxes made in a year don't equal a day of Shimano
derailleur production.

I see a lot of broken things but gearbox broken axles are not among
them. Freewheel hub axles yes, all the while.

[1]girlfriend's uncle brought one home. It's hanging on her wall. This
one's a different era for a different army but you get the idea:
https://static-img.gunstar.co.uk/adp...927529_img.jpg


This all happened so long ago that it's not possible to get into the
heads of the designers.

If I were to guess, they decided to increase the axle diameter to the
minimum required to achieve sufficient strength and avoid broken axles,
because they didn't want the rear dropout diameter to increase too much.
Sure they could have gone to 11mm but that's not a standard either,
they'd have had to go to 12mm/1.25mm pitch.

There was really no downside in using 10.5mm/26TPI at the time. There
are still a lot of those Dual-Drive SRAM hubs in use. Even my next-door
neighbor, not a bike person, has a folding bicycle with a Dual-Drive
hub. A great many Bike Fridays also used those hubs.
  #44  
Old August 4th 20, 01:04 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,084
Default LBS owner's essay

On Monday, August 3, 2020 at 3:52:51 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/3/2020 1:08 PM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
wrote:
On Monday, August 3, 2020 at 9:40:20 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 8/2/2020 6:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:

snip

I understood Mr Ruf to mean that a Sachs 2 speed of that era was
engineered with RH 10.5x26 thread.

I assume someone at F&S reasoned that your basic 9.5mm standard axle
would be less strong with a hole in the middle. Once that thread is
supported with tooling the next guy asks 'why not?'

Exactly.


+1

They no doubt found that 9.5mm was not sufficient with the
hole and determined that 10.5mm was optimal and didn't want something
as big as 12mm.

I guess they also found that 10mm was not sufficient. Who knows? And it
didn't really matter. They could specify the proper nuts to be
supplied.

They may have copied the Sturmey-Archer design but decided to go metric
instead of English and rounded up from 13/32" to 10.5mm.

When you engineer things you don't cut corners so that you need to
totally redesign something in the future. The 10.5 instead of a 12 made
about as much sense as your normal postings.


F&S were selling all kinds and sizes of hubs in the 1910's, including
"motor" hubs with 11, 13, and 14mm threaded axles, no threading details
known to me, unfortunately. Go ahead and ask Andrew or Aaron's how commonly
the 2 to 7 sp IGH's have failed because of 10.5 instead of 12mm. Eight
decades of engineers cutting corners was not what killed F&S. I only ever
broke any axles with the help of multi-sprockets freewheels, so I'm no expert.


F&S made all sorts of things including bayonets for a
succession of German armies[1]

I assume that, despite claims here on RBT, there just wasn't
enough volume to sustain their well designed well made but
esoteric bicycle designs. All the gearboxes made in a year
don't equal a day of Shimano derailleur production.

I see a lot of broken things but gearbox broken axles are
not among them. Freewheel hub axles yes, all the while.


I'm surprised to hear that. I've never broken a freehub axle. I broke some 5-6sp freewheel axles, but that's it.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #45  
Old August 4th 20, 02:31 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,120
Default LBS owner's essay

On 8/3/2020 7:04 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, August 3, 2020 at 3:52:51 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/3/2020 1:08 PM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
wrote:
On Monday, August 3, 2020 at 9:40:20 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 8/2/2020 6:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:

snip

I understood Mr Ruf to mean that a Sachs 2 speed of that era was
engineered with RH 10.5x26 thread.

I assume someone at F&S reasoned that your basic 9.5mm standard axle
would be less strong with a hole in the middle. Once that thread is
supported with tooling the next guy asks 'why not?'

Exactly.

+1

They no doubt found that 9.5mm was not sufficient with the
hole and determined that 10.5mm was optimal and didn't want something
as big as 12mm.

I guess they also found that 10mm was not sufficient. Who knows? And it
didn't really matter. They could specify the proper nuts to be
supplied.

They may have copied the Sturmey-Archer design but decided to go metric
instead of English and rounded up from 13/32" to 10.5mm.

When you engineer things you don't cut corners so that you need to
totally redesign something in the future. The 10.5 instead of a 12 made
about as much sense as your normal postings.

F&S were selling all kinds and sizes of hubs in the 1910's, including
"motor" hubs with 11, 13, and 14mm threaded axles, no threading details
known to me, unfortunately. Go ahead and ask Andrew or Aaron's how commonly
the 2 to 7 sp IGH's have failed because of 10.5 instead of 12mm. Eight
decades of engineers cutting corners was not what killed F&S. I only ever
broke any axles with the help of multi-sprockets freewheels, so I'm no expert.


F&S made all sorts of things including bayonets for a
succession of German armies[1]

I assume that, despite claims here on RBT, there just wasn't
enough volume to sustain their well designed well made but
esoteric bicycle designs. All the gearboxes made in a year
don't equal a day of Shimano derailleur production.

I see a lot of broken things but gearbox broken axles are
not among them. Freewheel hub axles yes, all the while.


I'm surprised to hear that. I've never broken a freehub axle. I broke some 5-6sp freewheel axles, but that's it.

-- Jay Beattie.


Yes we completely agree. Freewheel hub axles are very badly
cantilevered on the right side. Freehub (cassette) axles are
a much better design, as service history clearly shows.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #46  
Old August 4th 20, 04:30 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,039
Default LBS owner's essay

On Monday, August 3, 2020 at 1:12:35 PM UTC+1, Sepp Ruf wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, August 2, 2020 at 10:27:03 PM UTC+1, Sepp Ruf wrote:

Don't remind me of the next scheduled Shimano Nexus gear bath!


A Rohloff HGB is serviced by an oil change every 3000m/5000km. The
insertion of the cleaning oil, the extraction of the dirty oil, and the
insertion of the new clean running oil is all accomplished with a
screw-in syringe, without the oil ever touching your hands. Furthermore,
the materials required are less than half the price of a Shimano Nexus
oil bath.


Storing the plastic junk from the initial hub infusion and later buying the
fresh oils off the local R-dealer's large containers is slightly more messy,
but cheapest. Shimano should absolutely stick to their clever oil pricing
scheme -- it keeps the shops happy who will, purely for environmental
reasons,


Heh-heh!

reuse the remaining bathing oil for the next hub to service, but
motivates a frustrated Nexus rust bather to skip the 11sp Shimano and move
right on to Rohloff, or Pinion.


In the normal course of events I wouldn't ever consider a Pinion or any other bicycle component which requires a special frame that cannot be used for standard bicycle components. But I drove Porsche from the 356 forwards until I became a family man in a staid Volvo Estate with space for the baby's gear. So I'd like at least to try a Pinion. But, as far as I know, mine is the only Rohloff within 300m of me (right off the island in all directions) so the chances of running into a Pinion owner are infinitesimally small.

Quad erat demonstrandum


I'd prefer a quad-saving 27 percent difference for the lightest 2-1 gear
step, but as Rohloff is not likely to ever offer this, I redefined gear 3 as
the second-to last on steepening inclines.


Heh-heh!

"Quad", which should correctly be "Quod", was a pun on Rohloff's "All Seasons" oil. As I'm sure you know, the Rohloff has 13 percent gear separations and the control is in-line rotary, so you just zip right through a couple or several gear combos faster than you can make even one gear change on a derailleur-equipped bike. Since I have no roadie or other bicycle-sports background, and hated the only derailleur bike I ever had (mainly because it wrecked my back by over specified frame design, but also for its incompetent, fragile Sachs-Huret Omega derailleurs), it doesn't bother me at all that the convention is to change one gear at a time.

Andre Jute
Machines are my servants, not the converse.
  #47  
Old August 5th 20, 12:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,664
Default LBS owner's essay

On Sunday, August 2, 2020 at 6:19:37 PM UTC-5, news18 wrote:
On Sun, 02 Aug 2020 12:25:49 -0700, sms wrote:


Because it was widely used I would expect a long-time store to have some
in their shop.


sadly, some parts are just not economical for them to stock.

Andrew's store had them. And to be fair, at least
Off-Ramp had the somewhat compatible Sturmey-Archer nuts that Sheldon
said could be used in a pinch.

But the point I was making is that an LBS can't get upset when you order
stuff online that they have no interest in selling anyway.


For me, it s 27" tubes and tyres. All the local BS have moved to only
stocking whatever the latest fashion is.


With 27" tubes, the 700C tubes work exactly the same. No need for different labeled tubes. Now 27" tires and 700C tires are different and not interchangeable. Tubes are interchangeable. Presta and schraeder are interchangeable in one direction only.
  #48  
Old August 5th 20, 12:10 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,664
Default LBS owner's essay

On Monday, August 3, 2020 at 1:40:10 AM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 2 August 2020 19:41:52 UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/2/2020 6:19 PM, news18 wrote:
On Sun, 02 Aug 2020 12:25:49 -0700, sms wrote:


Because it was widely used I would expect a long-time store to have some
in their shop.

sadly, some parts are just not economical for them to stock.

Andrew's store had them. And to be fair, at least
Off-Ramp had the somewhat compatible Sturmey-Archer nuts that Sheldon
said could be used in a pinch.

But the point I was making is that an LBS can't get upset when you order
stuff online that they have no interest in selling anyway.

For me, it s 27" tubes and tyres. All the local BS have moved to only
stocking whatever the latest fashion is.


Tubes of the appropriate width for 700C and 27" are
completely fungible. The boxes were labeled with both sizes
not all that long ago. Buy 700C tubes in the valve and width
of your choice.

Besides generic 27" tires for older not so special bikes,
which are an inexpensive commodity, Panaracer still offers
Pasela Aramid bead 27" in a choice of widths. Can't imagine
a shop not stocking those but they aren't all that rare.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


27" tires are pretty rare up here as far as being stocked by a LBS. They'll order them in for you though.

Cheers


You're Canada, right? So 27" tires would be rare for you. I assume Canada and Europe stuck to metric/international standards for tires. 700C. Only the USA wanted to be completely different from the rest of the world. Like standard/inch nuts and everyone else uses metric nuts.
  #49  
Old August 5th 20, 01:29 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,185
Default LBS owner's essay

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 16:10:07 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Monday, August 3, 2020 at 1:40:10 AM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 2 August 2020 19:41:52 UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/2/2020 6:19 PM, news18 wrote:
On Sun, 02 Aug 2020 12:25:49 -0700, sms wrote:


Because it was widely used I would expect a long-time store to have some
in their shop.

sadly, some parts are just not economical for them to stock.

Andrew's store had them. And to be fair, at least
Off-Ramp had the somewhat compatible Sturmey-Archer nuts that Sheldon
said could be used in a pinch.

But the point I was making is that an LBS can't get upset when you order
stuff online that they have no interest in selling anyway.

For me, it s 27" tubes and tyres. All the local BS have moved to only
stocking whatever the latest fashion is.


Tubes of the appropriate width for 700C and 27" are
completely fungible. The boxes were labeled with both sizes
not all that long ago. Buy 700C tubes in the valve and width
of your choice.

Besides generic 27" tires for older not so special bikes,
which are an inexpensive commodity, Panaracer still offers
Pasela Aramid bead 27" in a choice of widths. Can't imagine
a shop not stocking those but they aren't all that rare.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


27" tires are pretty rare up here as far as being stocked by a LBS. They'll order them in for you though.

Cheers


You're Canada, right? So 27" tires would be rare for you. I assume Canada and Europe stuck to metric/international standards for tires. 700C. Only the USA wanted to be completely different from the rest of the world. Like standard/inch nuts and everyone else uses metric nuts.


Well, yes, the British established a thread standard in 1841, the U.S.
established a thread standard in 1864 and the ISO metric standard was
established in 1947 :-)

Johnny come lately?
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #50  
Old August 5th 20, 01:30 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,120
Default LBS owner's essay

On 8/4/2020 6:10 PM, wrote:
On Monday, August 3, 2020 at 1:40:10 AM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 2 August 2020 19:41:52 UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/2/2020 6:19 PM, news18 wrote:
On Sun, 02 Aug 2020 12:25:49 -0700, sms wrote:


Because it was widely used I would expect a long-time store to have some
in their shop.

sadly, some parts are just not economical for them to stock.

Andrew's store had them. And to be fair, at least
Off-Ramp had the somewhat compatible Sturmey-Archer nuts that Sheldon
said could be used in a pinch.

But the point I was making is that an LBS can't get upset when you order
stuff online that they have no interest in selling anyway.

For me, it s 27" tubes and tyres. All the local BS have moved to only
stocking whatever the latest fashion is.


Tubes of the appropriate width for 700C and 27" are
completely fungible. The boxes were labeled with both sizes
not all that long ago. Buy 700C tubes in the valve and width
of your choice.

Besides generic 27" tires for older not so special bikes,
which are an inexpensive commodity, Panaracer still offers
Pasela Aramid bead 27" in a choice of widths. Can't imagine
a shop not stocking those but they aren't all that rare.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


27" tires are pretty rare up here as far as being stocked by a LBS. They'll order them in for you though.

Cheers


You're Canada, right? So 27" tires would be rare for you. I assume Canada and Europe stuck to metric/international standards for tires. 700C. Only the USA wanted to be completely different from the rest of the world. Like standard/inch nuts and everyone else uses metric nuts.


It's the British "HP" format which won out over the
Continent's 700C for a good chunk of time here. Most large
manufacturers built bicycles in both formats for different
export markets.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


 




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