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Interesting Article On How Cars Took Over the Road



 
 
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  #11  
Old August 31st 18, 01:15 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling,uk.transport
TMS320
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,372
Default Interesting Article On How Cars Took Over the Road

On 31/08/18 10:59, JNugent wrote:
On 31/08/2018 10:37, TMS320 wrote:
On 31/08/18 00:06, JNugent wrote:
On 30/08/2018 21:29, TMS320 wrote:
On 30/08/18 19:32, JNugent wrote:
On 30/08/2018 15:20, TMS320 wrote:
On 30/08/18 14:25, JNugent wrote:
On 30/08/2018 00:19, TMS320 wrote:
On 29/08/18 20:56, Bret Cahill wrote:

This 4 year old article finally appeared in the U. S. media with
little attempt to hide the plagiarism:

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26073797

Visiting your side of the water a couple of years ago, I found the
larger towns and cities very walkable. Probably because they
tend to be
in grids, there usually isn't much reason to cross except at
intersections. Roads are wider so th ecrossing time requires larger
gaps between vehicles but, compared to the UK, intersections
with sidewalks are better marked and, unlike the UK, drivers
give way when turning.

The drivers and riders of motor vehicles - and cyclists - are
obliged to give way to pedestrians crossing any road into which
they are turning in both the UK and the USA. The American right
(in most places) to turn right against a red traffic light does
not undermine that.

Obligation and practice are not necessarily the same thing.

My observed experience is clearly different from yours. Drivers in
the UK and the USA do generally give way where they are supposed
to, subject always to the fact that a small minority either flout
the law or are ignorant of it.

If only one could say the same of cyclists, the majority of whom
appear oblivious to this and most other traffic rules (that's
putting it charitably).

Since you don't walk far how would you know?

What?


Perhaps an internet translation helps...

Since yous dun corky and chalk dead far 'ow would ye nah?


You get more weird with every post, it seems.


You want weird?

On 07/06/18 17:23, JNugent wrote:
"It all arises out of experience and acquired
information, much of it gained in this very NG".

You should cease having fantasies about your "observed experiences"
being of value.
Ads
  #12  
Old August 31st 18, 01:31 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 364
Default Interesting Article On How Cars Took Over the Road

On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 1:13:19 PM UTC+1, NY wrote:
But does UK and US law actually require you
to stop for someone who is waiting on the pavement to cross: is there a
portion of every road junction which has *implicit* zebra-crossing rules?


+++Rule 170 of the Highway Code advises that if a pedestrian has already started to cross the side road into which you’re turning from a main road, you MUST give way to them.+++
  #13  
Old August 31st 18, 01:51 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling,uk.transport
JNugent[_10_]
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Posts: 236
Default Interesting Article On How Cars Took Over the Road

On 31/08/2018 13:13, NY wrote:

"JNugent" wrote:


The drivers and riders of motor vehicles - and cyclists - are
obliged to give way to pedestrians crossing any road into which
they are turning in both the UK and the USA.


Being obliged to give way to pedestrians who are actually crossing (ie
they're already in the road) makes a lot of sense, on a best-endeavours
basis if not a legal obligation,


It is a legal obligation.

just as you would do you best to avoid
someone crossing anywhere else. But does UK and US law actually require
you to stop for someone who is waiting on the pavement to cross: is
there a portion of every road junction which has *implicit*
zebra-crossing rules?


Not to my knowledge. I usually allow pedestrians to cross at junctions
or when they've already crossed from the opposite kerb to a centre
refuge, etc.

As a pedestrian, I would never step off the pavement unless I could see
that the road was clear: I would never *make* a car stop for me with the
single exception of a zebra crossing.


Same here.

  #14  
Old August 31st 18, 01:53 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling,uk.transport
JNugent[_10_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 236
Default Interesting Article On How Cars Took Over the Road

On 31/08/2018 13:15, TMS320 wrote:
On 31/08/18 10:59, JNugent wrote:
On 31/08/2018 10:37, TMS320 wrote:
On 31/08/18 00:06, JNugent wrote:
On 30/08/2018 21:29, TMS320 wrote:
On 30/08/18 19:32, JNugent wrote:
On 30/08/2018 15:20, TMS320 wrote:
On 30/08/18 14:25, JNugent wrote:
On 30/08/2018 00:19, TMS320 wrote:
On 29/08/18 20:56, Bret Cahill wrote:

This 4 year old article finally appeared in the U. S. media with
little attempt to hide the plagiarism:

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26073797

Visiting your side of the water a couple of years ago, I found the
larger towns and cities very walkable. Probably because they
tend to be
in grids, there usually isn't much reason to cross except at
intersections. Roads are wider so th ecrossing time requires
larger
gaps between vehicles but, compared to the UK, intersections
with sidewalks are better marked and, unlike the UK, drivers
give way when turning.

The drivers and riders of motor vehicles - and cyclists - are
obliged to give way to pedestrians crossing any road into which
they are turning in both the UK and the USA. The American right
(in most places) to turn right against a red traffic light does
not undermine that.

Obligation and practice are not necessarily the same thing.

My observed experience is clearly different from yours. Drivers in
the UK and the USA do generally give way where they are supposed
to, subject always to the fact that a small minority either flout
the law or are ignorant of it.

If only one could say the same of cyclists, the majority of whom
appear oblivious to this and most other traffic rules (that's
putting it charitably).

Since you don't walk far how would you know?

What?

Perhaps an internet translation helps...

Since yous dun corky and chalk dead far 'ow would ye nah?


You get more weird with every post, it seems.


You want weird?

On 07/06/18 17:23, JNugent wrote:
"It all arises out of experience and acquired
information, much of it gained in this very NG".

You should cease having fantasies about your "observed experiences"
being of value.


You seem to think it is not possible to acquire information via reading.

  #15  
Old August 31st 18, 03:10 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling,uk.transport
TMS320
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,372
Default Interesting Article On How Cars Took Over the Road

On 31/08/18 13:13, NY wrote:

Being obliged to give way to pedestrians who are actually crossing (ie
they're already in the road) makes a lot of sense, on a best-endeavours
basis if not a legal obligation, just as you would do you best to avoid
someone crossing anywhere else. But does UK and US law actually require
you to stop for someone who is waiting on the pavement to cross: is
there a portion of every road junction which has *implicit*
zebra-crossing rules?


Whether or not it is law, I find a noticeable difference in culture. The
best we get in the UK is that it is wrong to run someone over that is
already crossing. Quite different to actual give way.

In the US, as mainland Europe, vehicles and pedestrians going straight
on at traffic lights are treated as equal and pedestrians have strict
priority over turning vehicles. They will get green lights at the same
time. In the UK, a pedestrian phase always turns vehicular traffic
lights red.

So in the US, there seems to be little practical difference whether the
light is red or green for right turning vehicles.

Also, in the US where there are sidewalks and junctions do not have
traffic lights, they often paint two white lines, sometimes with zebra
stripes and/or advance stop lines, to show the continuation of the
sidewalk. This is also becoming practice on mainland Europe, either by
whitelining or texture. Compare with junctions in the UK where even on
residential roads the give way line only demarks the carriageway.

In other words, I am sure traffic lights and white lining promote the
culture. I have encountered many that stop on a look.

As a pedestrian, I would never step off the pavement unless I could see
that the road was clear: I would never *make* a car stop for me with the
single exception of a zebra crossing.


That's the observed behaviour of most pedestrians in the UK, which
drivers have come to take advantage of. It requires agility and a plan B
to assert your rights. And we don't have presumed liability as a backup.
  #16  
Old August 31st 18, 03:26 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling,uk.transport
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 49
Default Interesting Article On How Cars Took Over the Road

On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 15:10:59 +0100
TMS320 wrote:
On 31/08/18 13:13, NY wrote:

Being obliged to give way to pedestrians who are actually crossing (ie
they're already in the road) makes a lot of sense, on a best-endeavours
basis if not a legal obligation, just as you would do you best to avoid
someone crossing anywhere else. But does UK and US law actually require
you to stop for someone who is waiting on the pavement to cross: is
there a portion of every road junction which has *implicit*
zebra-crossing rules?


Whether or not it is law, I find a noticeable difference in culture. The
best we get in the UK is that it is wrong to run someone over that is
already crossing. Quite different to actual give way.

In the US, as mainland Europe, vehicles and pedestrians going straight
on at traffic lights are treated as equal and pedestrians have strict
priority over turning vehicles. They will get green lights at the same
time. In the UK, a pedestrian phase always turns vehicular traffic
lights red.


Which IMO is a good thing. Not all drivers stop for people on crossings so
you can guarantee they wouldn't stop if they had a green light.



  #17  
Old August 31st 18, 03:34 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Simon Jester
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,868
Default Interesting Article On How Cars Took Over the Road

On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 10:37:17 AM UTC+1, TMS320 wrote:
On 31/08/18 00:06, JNugent wrote:
On 30/08/2018 21:29, TMS320 wrote:
On 30/08/18 19:32, JNugent wrote:
On 30/08/2018 15:20, TMS320 wrote:
On 30/08/18 14:25, JNugent wrote:
On 30/08/2018 00:19, TMS320 wrote:
On 29/08/18 20:56, Bret Cahill wrote:

This 4 year old article finally appeared in the U. S. media with
little attempt to hide the plagiarism:

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26073797

Visiting your side of the water a couple of years ago, I found the
larger towns and cities very walkable. Probably because they tend
to be
in grids, there usually isn't much reason to cross except at
intersections. Roads are wider so th ecrossing time requires larger
gaps between vehicles but, compared to the UK, intersections with
sidewalks are better marked and, unlike the UK, drivers give way
when turning.

The drivers and riders of motor vehicles - and cyclists - are
obliged to give way to pedestrians crossing any road into which
they are turning in both the UK and the USA. The American right (in
most places) to turn right against a red traffic light does not
undermine that.

Obligation and practice are not necessarily the same thing.

My observed experience is clearly different from yours. Drivers in
the UK and the USA do generally give way where they are supposed to,
subject always to the fact that a small minority either flout the law
or are ignorant of it.

If only one could say the same of cyclists, the majority of whom
appear oblivious to this and most other traffic rules (that's putting
it charitably).

Since you don't walk far how would you know?


What?


Perhaps an internet translation helps...

Since yous dun corky and chalk dead far 'ow would ye nah?


Please remember Nugent is a long term mental health inmate.
The fact that it believes motorists give way to pedestrians at junctions demonstrates that it has not walked on a public street for several decades.
  #18  
Old August 31st 18, 03:40 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Simon Jester
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,868
Default Interesting Article On How Cars Took Over the Road

On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 1:13:19 PM UTC+1, NY wrote:
"JNugent" wrote in message
...
The drivers and riders of motor vehicles - and cyclists - are
obliged to give way to pedestrians crossing any road into which they
are turning in both the UK and the USA.


Being obliged to give way to pedestrians who are actually crossing (ie
they're already in the road) makes a lot of sense, on a best-endeavours
basis if not a legal obligation, just as you would do you best to avoid
someone crossing anywhere else. But does UK and US law actually require you
to stop for someone who is waiting on the pavement to cross: is there a
portion of every road junction which has *implicit* zebra-crossing rules?

As a pedestrian, I would never step off the pavement unless I could see that
the road was clear: I would never *make* a car stop for me with the single
exception of a zebra crossing.


This is just the 'the roads are for cars' attitude I hate.
I have nothing against cars but roads are for people not machinery.
Pedestrians, equestrians and cyclists are the most important road users in that order.
If you chose to use a motor vehicle on roads paid for by others you must expect to wait for them.
  #19  
Old August 31st 18, 04:47 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Bret Cahill
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 670
Default Interesting Article On How Cars Took Over the Road

The drivers and riders of motor vehicles - and cyclists - are
obliged to give way to pedestrians crossing any road into which they
are turning in both the UK and the USA.


Being obliged to give way to pedestrians who are actually crossing (ie
they're already in the road) makes a lot of sense, on a best-endeavours
basis if not a legal obligation, just as you would do you best to avoid
someone crossing anywhere else. But does UK and US law actually require you
to stop for someone who is waiting on the pavement to cross: is there a
portion of every road junction which has *implicit* zebra-crossing rules?


As a pedestrian, I would never step off the pavement unless I could see that
the road was clear: I would never *make* a car stop for me with the single
exception of a zebra crossing.


This is just the 'the roads are for cars' attitude I hate.
I have nothing against cars but roads are for people not machinery.


Their driver-parents hardly ever notice but small kids are so happy to see a human face, _anything_ besides cars on the street, they struggle and twist in their restraining seats to watch pedestrians and cyclists.

Pedestrians, equestrians and cyclists are the most important road users in that order.


It's never discussed in any study but you cannot overestimate the long term value to society of anything that entertains and educates small children. Kids are action junkies and need to be entertained every second they are awake. When my dad got a day with his grand kids he would stay up the night before planning on dozens of places to go and things to do.

Looking at cars on the street just doesn't do the trick.










  #20  
Old August 31st 18, 05:33 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Simon Jester
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,868
Default Interesting Article On How Cars Took Over the Road

On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 4:48:00 PM UTC+1, Bret Cahill wrote:
The drivers and riders of motor vehicles - and cyclists - are
obliged to give way to pedestrians crossing any road into which they
are turning in both the UK and the USA.


Being obliged to give way to pedestrians who are actually crossing (ie
they're already in the road) makes a lot of sense, on a best-endeavours
basis if not a legal obligation, just as you would do you best to avoid
someone crossing anywhere else. But does UK and US law actually require you
to stop for someone who is waiting on the pavement to cross: is there a
portion of every road junction which has *implicit* zebra-crossing rules?


As a pedestrian, I would never step off the pavement unless I could see that
the road was clear: I would never *make* a car stop for me with the single
exception of a zebra crossing.


This is just the 'the roads are for cars' attitude I hate.
I have nothing against cars but roads are for people not machinery.


Their driver-parents hardly ever notice but small kids are so happy to see a human face, _anything_ besides cars on the street, they struggle and twist in their restraining seats to watch pedestrians and cyclists.

Pedestrians, equestrians and cyclists are the most important road users in that order.


It's never discussed in any study but you cannot overestimate the long term value to society of anything that entertains and educates small children.. Kids are action junkies and need to be entertained every second they are awake. When my dad got a day with his grand kids he would stay up the night before planning on dozens of places to go and things to do.

Looking at cars on the street just doesn't do the trick.


As evidenced by the ubiquitous "Are we there yet?".

 




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