"Actually you are the first person to bring up this issue"

(Gary Young) wrote:

Mark Hickey wrote in message . ..
(Gary Young) wrote:

snip
But your attitude seems to be, we could lift a finger, but we
don't want to spend the money. Better that our customers should pay
the price for our stupidity. Isn't that what you're saying? -- we
could fix the problem, but we won't. The only costs will be born by
someone else. We don't mind killing off a few customers as long as it
doesn't hurt our bottom line.
snip
I'm quite surprised to see you pursue this line. All I can say is that
if this is your idea of customer service, then I'll never buy one of
your frames.

Your (il)logical conclusions and inability to understand my position
are astonishing. You really "don't get it", do you?

Well, I should have been more temporate, for civility's sake.
Nonetheless, I think your position is contrary to the law and morally
obtuse. I find it troubling that you haven't responded to a question
I've posed a couple of times: does the industry have a duty to warn
its customers about this problem?

My "position" is that the manufacturers and CPSC probably don't think
there IS a problem, and I'd like to see that remedied by collecting
some data that might influence them (assuming of course that it shows
there IS a problem).

And FWIW, I don't have a "position" on how the rest of the industry
handles potential liability. I have observations, which I shared and
you subsequently ascribed to springing from my own moral code.

Does the industry have a duty to warn customers NOW? I don't know...
it all depends on how compelling the data they have is. I have no
problem at all believing the data they have right now doesn't compel
them to do an expensive recall / or to scare existing customers. I
say that because (as I've said about a hundred times now...) they've
all heard about skewers spontaneously unscrewing themselves, and a few
reports of this happening to customers with disc brakes won't stand
out as anything particularly unusual, barring more data.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

(Gary Young) wrote:

Mark Hickey wrote in message . ..
(Gary Young) wrote:

snip
But your attitude seems to be, we could lift a finger, but we
don't want to spend the money. Better that our customers should pay
the price for our stupidity. Isn't that what you're saying? -- we
could fix the problem, but we won't. The only costs will be born by
someone else. We don't mind killing off a few customers as long as it
doesn't hurt our bottom line.
snip
I'm quite surprised to see you pursue this line. All I can say is that
if this is your idea of customer service, then I'll never buy one of
your frames.

Your (il)logical conclusions and inability to understand my position
are astonishing. You really "don't get it", do you?

Well, I should have been more temporate, for civility's sake.
Nonetheless, I think your position is contrary to the law and morally
obtuse. I find it troubling that you haven't responded to a question
I've posed a couple of times: does the industry have a duty to warn
its customers about this problem?

My "position" is that the manufacturers and CPSC probably don't think
there IS a problem, and I'd like to see that remedied by collecting
some data that might influence them (assuming of course that it shows
there IS a problem).

And FWIW, I don't have a "position" on how the rest of the industry
handles potential liability. I have observations, which I shared and
you subsequently ascribed to springing from my own moral code.

Does the industry have a duty to warn customers NOW? I don't know...
it all depends on how compelling the data they have is. I have no
problem at all believing the data they have right now doesn't compel
them to do an expensive recall / or to scare existing customers. I
say that because (as I've said about a hundred times now...) they've
all heard about skewers spontaneously unscrewing themselves, and a few
reports of this happening to customers with disc brakes won't stand
out as anything particularly unusual, barring more data.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Carl Fogel writes:

Here's a double-size picture of the rocket recumbent with dreadfully
artistic lines and angles calculated off x-y pixel positions.

If anything, it looks as if it would brake even better than I
originally thought--about a 50 degree angle from COG to contact
patch versus 61 degrees for the upright with an almost identical
wheelbase in "Bicycling Science."

http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/d...ketdiagram.jpg

Good work. That's about what I suspected but then sitting rigidly on
the seat on this thing may be the difference. In any case, a good
grab on th brakes will turn it over. That doesn't mean it is unstable
or dangerous in use, only that it can upend and that I wouldn't want
to ride it down a steep bumpy trail. We were talking about braking on
steep rough terrain when recumbents got introduced to the thread.

Possibly the recumbent that you remember wasn't quite identical
to this one?

I think it was very much the same.

As for Tom's elusive blue Dragonflyer, there are a dozen lurid
views he

http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/Dragonflyer

Yes, double-checked that one. (Sorry about my incorrect corrections
of addresses.) This picture gives an almost side-view:

http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/Dragonflyer/df2.jpg

Well that one's out of contention on trails. They aren't called
single track for nothing.

Jobst Brandt

Carl Fogel writes:

Here's a double-size picture of the rocket recumbent with dreadfully
artistic lines and angles calculated off x-y pixel positions.

If anything, it looks as if it would brake even better than I
originally thought--about a 50 degree angle from COG to contact
patch versus 61 degrees for the upright with an almost identical
wheelbase in "Bicycling Science."

http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/d...ketdiagram.jpg

Good work. That's about what I suspected but then sitting rigidly on
the seat on this thing may be the difference. In any case, a good
grab on th brakes will turn it over. That doesn't mean it is unstable
or dangerous in use, only that it can upend and that I wouldn't want
to ride it down a steep bumpy trail. We were talking about braking on
steep rough terrain when recumbents got introduced to the thread.

Possibly the recumbent that you remember wasn't quite identical
to this one?

I think it was very much the same.

As for Tom's elusive blue Dragonflyer, there are a dozen lurid
views he

http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/Dragonflyer

Yes, double-checked that one. (Sorry about my incorrect corrections
of addresses.) This picture gives an almost side-view:

http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/Dragonflyer/df2.jpg

Well that one's out of contention on trails. They aren't called
single track for nothing.

Jobst Brandt

Benjamin Lewis wrote:

I see -- your question was a little unspecific. It would surprise me to
find that disc brakes were less prone to fade, since they appear to have
much less surface area available for heat dissipation, but there may be
other factors I'm overlooking. They certainly must reduce the chances of
tire blow-off due to heating of rims, but this is a different question.

That's certainly my experience. Because you have much more discretion in the
choice of disc material and brake pad material than you do with rim brakes you
can chose arrangements that are less prone to fade. Heat is not an issue -
remember Formula One brakes work best when they are glowing red hot - with the
right materials choices.

Tony

Benjamin Lewis wrote:

I see -- your question was a little unspecific. It would surprise me to
find that disc brakes were less prone to fade, since they appear to have
much less surface area available for heat dissipation, but there may be
other factors I'm overlooking. They certainly must reduce the chances of
tire blow-off due to heating of rims, but this is a different question.

That's certainly my experience. Because you have much more discretion in the
choice of disc material and brake pad material than you do with rim brakes you
can chose arrangements that are less prone to fade. Heat is not an issue -
remember Formula One brakes work best when they are glowing red hot - with the
right materials choices.

Tony

"Chris B." wrote in message
...

Since most bike brakes are capable of skidding the front wheel in most
circs, all that better brakes give you is finer control of braking
force and less grip effort.

And less fade.

Why?

Pad compounds and steel rotors is my guess. The steel rotor means you can
use a much more aggressive compound without worrying about wear. But it
works: braking at 40mph on rim brakes produces a lovely smell of melting
phenolic resins and no noticeable deceleration, same with discs results in
Major Stopping Power.

--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

"Chris B." wrote in message
...

Since most bike brakes are capable of skidding the front wheel in most
circs, all that better brakes give you is finer control of braking
force and less grip effort.

And less fade.

Why?

Pad compounds and steel rotors is my guess. The steel rotor means you can
use a much more aggressive compound without worrying about wear. But it
works: braking at 40mph on rim brakes produces a lovely smell of melting
phenolic resins and no noticeable deceleration, same with discs results in
Major Stopping Power.

--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

"Just zis Guy, you know?" wrote in message
...

braking at 40mph on rim brakes produces a lovely smell of melting
phenolic resins and no noticeable deceleration

You're doing it wrong then. The rim brakes on our tandem have done hard
stops from 50mph more than once (feature of having steep hills with a
nasty sharp corner at the bottom!)

(maguras, black or red compound - the latter is the same as the koolstop
salmon and is what's on it at the moment).

cheers,
clive

"Just zis Guy, you know?" wrote in message
...

braking at 40mph on rim brakes produces a lovely smell of melting
phenolic resins and no noticeable deceleration

You're doing it wrong then. The rim brakes on our tandem have done hard
stops from 50mph more than once (feature of having steep hills with a
nasty sharp corner at the bottom!)

(maguras, black or red compound - the latter is the same as the koolstop
salmon and is what's on it at the moment).

cheers,
clive