"Actually you are the first person to bring up this issue"

Gary Young wrote:

I suspect that the industry is hoping there are no claims until the
problem can be addressed quietly.

This is not so much a suspicion as an openly stated fact within the
industry.

James

Gary Young wrote:

I suspect that the industry is hoping there are no claims until the
problem can be addressed quietly.

This is not so much a suspicion as an openly stated fact within the
industry.

James

"Tony Raven" writes:

Tim McNamara wrote:

"Compelling is in the eye of the beholder" seems to be what you're
suggesting. Fair enough, I think. In the case of the
manufacturers, I suspect that "compelling" is going to be equated
with "massive product liability if we don't immediately fix it" and
they don't see that yet. I think they're burying their heads, but
that's between themselves, their lawyers and their liability
insurance carriers. In the meantime, the users of these products
are the ones assuming the risk.

From the replys and lack of replies I had to the question I asked
earlier "Compelling" would seem to require at least having one
person from the many tens of thousand mountain bikers out there
using discs reporting to a manufacturer that they have experienced a
problem of this nature with their product. So far it looks as if
no-one has done that in which case it would not be unreasonable for
them to assume that whatever the theory, across a large population
sample it is not happening in practice.

Well, presumably James has repored his experience, and Russ who will
also be going to court.

Have a look at the number of bicycle related CPSC actions and
recalls (http://www.cpsc.gov/cgi-bin/recalldb/prod.asp, choose
Bicycles and Accessories and click Find)and ask why on earth would
they ignore this particular problem when handlebars, forks, stems,
helmets, whole bicycles, disc brake rotors etc are being recalled
all the time, sometimes at quite considerable financial cost to the
manufacturer. Either it is a massively complex and coordinated
conspiracy involving multiple companies across the globe and the US
government or there is a simpler answer.

I think the simplest answer is that the CPSC has not yet realized that
this can happen, and without a flood of complaints they won't. Of
course, riders will tend to think "wow, I must not have done up my QR
tight enough, because everybody knows QRs never loosen up if they're
used properly." So they wouldn't actually realize that it's a design
problem.

"Tony Raven" writes:

Tim McNamara wrote:

"Compelling is in the eye of the beholder" seems to be what you're
suggesting. Fair enough, I think. In the case of the
manufacturers, I suspect that "compelling" is going to be equated
with "massive product liability if we don't immediately fix it" and
they don't see that yet. I think they're burying their heads, but
that's between themselves, their lawyers and their liability
insurance carriers. In the meantime, the users of these products
are the ones assuming the risk.

From the replys and lack of replies I had to the question I asked
earlier "Compelling" would seem to require at least having one
person from the many tens of thousand mountain bikers out there
using discs reporting to a manufacturer that they have experienced a
problem of this nature with their product. So far it looks as if
no-one has done that in which case it would not be unreasonable for
them to assume that whatever the theory, across a large population
sample it is not happening in practice.

Well, presumably James has repored his experience, and Russ who will
also be going to court.

Have a look at the number of bicycle related CPSC actions and
recalls (http://www.cpsc.gov/cgi-bin/recalldb/prod.asp, choose
Bicycles and Accessories and click Find)and ask why on earth would
they ignore this particular problem when handlebars, forks, stems,
helmets, whole bicycles, disc brake rotors etc are being recalled
all the time, sometimes at quite considerable financial cost to the
manufacturer. Either it is a massively complex and coordinated
conspiracy involving multiple companies across the globe and the US
government or there is a simpler answer.

I think the simplest answer is that the CPSC has not yet realized that
this can happen, and without a flood of complaints they won't. Of
course, riders will tend to think "wow, I must not have done up my QR
tight enough, because everybody knows QRs never loosen up if they're
used properly." So they wouldn't actually realize that it's a design
problem.

carlfogel wrote:

Dear Tom,

Without inquiring into why your tricycle would be prone to pursuing
sewage down those gratings, its address is actually:

http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/Dragonflyer/df1a.jpg

http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/D...yer/index.html

Ya gotta include the "Dragonflyer" part, or your blue beast stubbornly
stays hidden down in the bowels of the internet.

Carl "Never Fails to Proofread" gel

Dear Carl,

What happened here is that the IHPVA webmaster reorganized the
"incoming" directory, making my former correct URL's no longer valid.

--
Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

carlfogel wrote:

Dear Tom,

Without inquiring into why your tricycle would be prone to pursuing
sewage down those gratings, its address is actually:

http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/Dragonflyer/df1a.jpg

http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/D...yer/index.html

Ya gotta include the "Dragonflyer" part, or your blue beast stubbornly
stays hidden down in the bowels of the internet.

Carl "Never Fails to Proofread" gel

Dear Carl,

What happened here is that the IHPVA webmaster reorganized the
"incoming" directory, making my former correct URL's no longer valid.

--
Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

wrote:

http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/sunset/Sunset001.jpg

That is certainly a compendium of mechanical oddities, unistrut fork,
front spoke guard, primary and secondary chains with cross-over and
dual tensioners. The tiller style steering is also unusual for using
arm force while pedaling. How do you keep pant legs out of the chain?

Isn't "unistrut fork" an oxymoron?

The spoke guard is for running the front chain off the idler for
slightly reduced drivetrain friction.

The two chain system has several advantages to compensate for the
additional mechanical complexity. The step-up provides a virtual 30" (76
cm) diameter drivewheel for gearing purposes, so wide range gearing is
available with conventional sized chainrings and a regular front
derailleur. There are no cross-gears, and having a single sprocket for
each chain at the step-up makes for an excellent chainline.

Pulling on the handlebars of a recumbent does little except make the
handling wobbly.

In the line with this thread, I cannot see riding this on steep trails
or trails at all for that matter.

As for riding on off-road downhill trails, the concept here is thread
drift. As for riding the Sunset at all, even though I have poor gross
(and fine for that matter) motor coordination and am below average in
learning physical skills, I ride it with no problem and have much more
fun doing so than I ever did on an upright bicycle.

--
Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

wrote:

http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/sunset/Sunset001.jpg

That is certainly a compendium of mechanical oddities, unistrut fork,
front spoke guard, primary and secondary chains with cross-over and
dual tensioners. The tiller style steering is also unusual for using
arm force while pedaling. How do you keep pant legs out of the chain?

Isn't "unistrut fork" an oxymoron?

The spoke guard is for running the front chain off the idler for
slightly reduced drivetrain friction.

The two chain system has several advantages to compensate for the
additional mechanical complexity. The step-up provides a virtual 30" (76
cm) diameter drivewheel for gearing purposes, so wide range gearing is
available with conventional sized chainrings and a regular front
derailleur. There are no cross-gears, and having a single sprocket for
each chain at the step-up makes for an excellent chainline.

Pulling on the handlebars of a recumbent does little except make the
handling wobbly.

In the line with this thread, I cannot see riding this on steep trails
or trails at all for that matter.

As for riding on off-road downhill trails, the concept here is thread
drift. As for riding the Sunset at all, even though I have poor gross
(and fine for that matter) motor coordination and am below average in
learning physical skills, I ride it with no problem and have much more
fun doing so than I ever did on an upright bicycle.

--
Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

carlfogel wrote:

Dear Jobst,

Here's a double-size picture of the rocket recumbent with dreadfully
artistic lines and angles calculated off x-y pixel positions.

If anything, it looks as if it would brake even better than I
originally thought--about a 50 degree angle from COG to contact patch
versus 61 degrees for the upright with an almost identical wheelbase in
"Bicycling Science."

http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/d...ketdiagram.jpg

or

http://tinyurl.com/yrtgo

Possibly the recumbent that you remember wasn't quite identical
to this one?

Dear Carl,

The seat height will be about an inch lower than the top of the seat
cushion for an average rider (and lower for one who consumes an
excessive amount of sucrose sweetened torroidal foods).

As for Tom's elusive blue Dragonflyer, there are a dozen lurid
views he

http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/Dragonflyer

Yes, double-checked that one. (Sorry about my incorrect corrections of
addresses.) This picture gives an almost side-view:

http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/Dragonflyer/df2.jpg

Weird-lookin' thing!

But you must appreciate the OEM custom Phil Wood hubs (each worth at
least 4 Roadmaster Mt. Fury's).

--
Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

carlfogel wrote:

Dear Jobst,

Here's a double-size picture of the rocket recumbent with dreadfully
artistic lines and angles calculated off x-y pixel positions.

If anything, it looks as if it would brake even better than I
originally thought--about a 50 degree angle from COG to contact patch
versus 61 degrees for the upright with an almost identical wheelbase in
"Bicycling Science."

http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/d...ketdiagram.jpg

or

http://tinyurl.com/yrtgo

Possibly the recumbent that you remember wasn't quite identical
to this one?

Dear Carl,

The seat height will be about an inch lower than the top of the seat
cushion for an average rider (and lower for one who consumes an
excessive amount of sucrose sweetened torroidal foods).

As for Tom's elusive blue Dragonflyer, there are a dozen lurid
views he

http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/Dragonflyer

Yes, double-checked that one. (Sorry about my incorrect corrections of
addresses.) This picture gives an almost side-view:

http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/Dragonflyer/df2.jpg

Weird-lookin' thing!

But you must appreciate the OEM custom Phil Wood hubs (each worth at
least 4 Roadmaster Mt. Fury's).

--
Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side)