Octalink ES25 replacement?

On 2017-08-15 16:31, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 3:47:56 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-15 14:18, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/15/2017 3:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-15 08:29, wrote:

[...]


... They do not start creaking after a short time as was
stated and they have lower rotational friction under load.


I understand that. What I don't understand is this: I have
helped replace wheel bearings on offroad motorcycles. These
weren't much bigger and they are exposed to way more load and
hammering. Fully loaded bike, rider, tent, food, booze,
clothes, air mattress and so on, blasting over rutted trails at
40mph or more. Those bearings lasted north of 50k miles. They
weren't even shot, it was just PM.

If there just was an ES25 replacement where the left cup isn't
plastic I'd be happy. For my 1982 road bike there was but maybe
I am out of luck for the MTB even though it's a 2103 model
year.


You misunderstood Tom and probably most of our comments
recently.

A crank for square taper has a set of matching BB options.

A spline crank has a different set of options.

One of the many outboard systems has a crank/spindle with
matching bearing/bearing cup protocols.

Each system has recommended parts and then crappier cheaper
aftermarket alternatives and then again pricier better quality
options as well.


I think I understood it. It means if I go outboard I need new
cranks which is something I might do later (when the current ones
are shot). Then the challenge will be to find a combination of
outboard BB plus crank set that will result in the same chain line
as my current Shimano ES25 and M522 and offers 42/32/24T or
something close.

My MTB buddy has a titanium hardtail with outboard bearings. The
cranks don't look much different from mine but his frame is. IOW
it's not that his small chain ring is cradling the right-side
outboard bearing, which is what I'd need.

Replacement may be sooner than you think. The "ticking" you
described in your original post and "slight play" is typical of
smashed splines in the crank. You may have a crank problem rather
than a BB problem -- or both. Had you removed and re-installed the
crank recently? Before you dump money on a new BB, try tightening
the hell out of the crank and see what happens. If the ticking and
slop goes away and then comes back, your splines are shot.


I can literally see the shaft move, with cranks solidly attached. When
taking the chain off and rotating without any load the thing already
makes noises. That BB is clearly on the way out. I wanted to keep it in
so I can ride until I know whether there is a better ES25-type cartridge
but it seems there isn't.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 6:37:26 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-15 16:31, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 3:47:56 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-15 14:18, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/15/2017 3:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-15 08:29, wrote:

[...]


... They do not start creaking after a short time as was
stated and they have lower rotational friction under load.


I understand that. What I don't understand is this: I have
helped replace wheel bearings on offroad motorcycles. These
weren't much bigger and they are exposed to way more load and
hammering. Fully loaded bike, rider, tent, food, booze,
clothes, air mattress and so on, blasting over rutted trails at
40mph or more. Those bearings lasted north of 50k miles. They
weren't even shot, it was just PM.

If there just was an ES25 replacement where the left cup isn't
plastic I'd be happy. For my 1982 road bike there was but maybe
I am out of luck for the MTB even though it's a 2103 model
year.


You misunderstood Tom and probably most of our comments
recently.

A crank for square taper has a set of matching BB options.

A spline crank has a different set of options.

One of the many outboard systems has a crank/spindle with
matching bearing/bearing cup protocols.

Each system has recommended parts and then crappier cheaper
aftermarket alternatives and then again pricier better quality
options as well.


I think I understood it. It means if I go outboard I need new
cranks which is something I might do later (when the current ones
are shot). Then the challenge will be to find a combination of
outboard BB plus crank set that will result in the same chain line
as my current Shimano ES25 and M522 and offers 42/32/24T or
something close.

My MTB buddy has a titanium hardtail with outboard bearings. The
cranks don't look much different from mine but his frame is. IOW
it's not that his small chain ring is cradling the right-side
outboard bearing, which is what I'd need.

Replacement may be sooner than you think. The "ticking" you
described in your original post and "slight play" is typical of
smashed splines in the crank. You may have a crank problem rather
than a BB problem -- or both. Had you removed and re-installed the
crank recently? Before you dump money on a new BB, try tightening
the hell out of the crank and see what happens. If the ticking and
slop goes away and then comes back, your splines are shot.


I can literally see the shaft move, with cranks solidly attached. When
taking the chain off and rotating without any load the thing already
makes noises. That BB is clearly on the way out. I wanted to keep it in
so I can ride until I know whether there is a better ES25-type cartridge
but it seems there isn't.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

You know it just occurred to me that the Shimano 105 5503 BB is 118.5 according to Sheldon Brown.

He also has a picture of V1, V2 and ISIS splines so that you can see what the heck you actually have.

On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 5:40:55 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 07:14:22 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-14 19:03, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 10:31:38 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-14 10:17, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/14/2017 12:06 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-14 08:51, wrote:
On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 8:29:42 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:

Quit whining and buy a 105 compact crank with a $16 external
bearing BB. Your bike has no historical value and maintaining a bad
standard will just bring you back in one or two years with the same
complaints -- and the endless comparisons to the longevity of 25lb
car parts.

Well I have to agree with your idea if not your attitude.


When buying a $1k mainstream bicycle I expect things to last. People
with external bearings out here fare no better as their BBs also
develop creaks and bearing play after a few thousand miles.

It's similar with road bikes. A friend only buys high-class hubs
costing north of $200 a pop. They don't last longer than mine.

You need to move out of that Bermuda-Triangle-hell-hole where everything
breaks, nothing works, everything is dangerous and bicyclists can barely
survive.


If you read more carefully, as suggested often, you'd have noticed that
it isn't broken but simply _worn_ out.

But even a casual look at available You Tube films shows a guy
successfully rebuilding a cartridge BB
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lar7mIMmTRE


It's a square taper BB.


And another replacing the O.B. model's bearings
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hklHC2ae04g


That one would not fit my MTB.


My mother used to say, when I was whining about something, "The Good
Lord helps those who help themselves".


I have seen such videos when looking for a replacement for my road bike.
As I have mentioned in this thread one of the objectives is not to have
that dreaded plastic left cup anymore. Plastic has IMHO no place in a
high-stress area on a bicycle. For the road bike I could replace with
UN-55. It has an aluminum left cup which isn't ideal but at least not
plastic. So it'll hopefully last longer than 5k miles.

You seem to have a multitude of reasons why you cannot undertake
something that other's have successfully accomplished... and posted a
video showing how to do it.

Other's what? Other's wives? Other's children? Please be specific. And which other?

On 8/16/2017 12:35 PM, Doug Landau wrote:
On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 5:40:55 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 07:14:22 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-14 19:03, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 10:31:38 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-14 10:17, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/14/2017 12:06 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-14 08:51, wrote:
On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 8:29:42 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:

Quit whining and buy a 105 compact crank with a $16 external
bearing BB. Your bike has no historical value and maintaining a bad
standard will just bring you back in one or two years with the same
complaints -- and the endless comparisons to the longevity of 25lb
car parts.

Well I have to agree with your idea if not your attitude.


When buying a $1k mainstream bicycle I expect things to last. People
with external bearings out here fare no better as their BBs also
develop creaks and bearing play after a few thousand miles.

It's similar with road bikes. A friend only buys high-class hubs
costing north of $200 a pop. They don't last longer than mine.

You need to move out of that Bermuda-Triangle-hell-hole where everything
breaks, nothing works, everything is dangerous and bicyclists can barely
survive.


If you read more carefully, as suggested often, you'd have noticed that
it isn't broken but simply _worn_ out.

But even a casual look at available You Tube films shows a guy
successfully rebuilding a cartridge BB
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lar7mIMmTRE


It's a square taper BB.


And another replacing the O.B. model's bearings
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hklHC2ae04g


That one would not fit my MTB.


My mother used to say, when I was whining about something, "The Good
Lord helps those who help themselves".


I have seen such videos when looking for a replacement for my road bike.
As I have mentioned in this thread one of the objectives is not to have
that dreaded plastic left cup anymore. Plastic has IMHO no place in a
high-stress area on a bicycle. For the road bike I could replace with
UN-55. It has an aluminum left cup which isn't ideal but at least not
plastic. So it'll hopefully last longer than 5k miles.

You seem to have a multitude of reasons why you cannot undertake
something that other's have successfully accomplished... and posted a
video showing how to do it.

Other's what? Other's wives? Other's children? Please be specific. And which other?


It's generic, as in 'The Other', a concept without which
English and Afro Am Lit departments would have died a
merciful death long ago.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 8/16/2017 9:33 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-15 18:20, jbeattie wrote:


That ship sailed when you got Octalink.


When buying an MTB that isn't completely custom-assembled there isn't
much choice.

Poor Joerg.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 06:33:41 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-15 18:20, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 7:16:29 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-14 18:37, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 07:04:07 -0700, Joerg
wrote:
much snipped

Gimmee a BB that weighs a pound and lasts forever.

That ship sailed when you got Octalink.


When buying an MTB that isn't completely custom-assembled there isn't
much choice.


... Square drive -- maybe, but
it would require maintenance. Any sealed unit (internal or external
bearing) will fail after a period of time -- sometimes a very long
period.


I now have a sealed UN-55 BB in my road bike which has square taper
cranks. So far there were adjustable Shimano 600 BBs in there but those
have become unobtanium, at least at reasonable prices.


Seek and thou shall find:
http://tinyurl.com/yapw9ats
US$2.42
Or a complete set with bearings, spindle and a wrench US$ 24.03

I think I have written about talking to a Chinese wholesaler at a
trade show here who would, in volume, supply the three piece BB's for
US$1.00 each.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 06:35:57 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-15 18:07, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/15/2017 7:55 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 13:24:49 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-15 08:29, wrote:
On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 1:11:23 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

There is no space down there on the MTB for outboard bearings.

There most certainly is. The cranks are recessed for the added width
or they are simply wider. ...


Right now there is less than 0.020" clearance so this would require
buying new cranks and throwing out the current ones I have that are
still good (less a tooth here and there but who cares). I'd also have to
try my best to calculate the chain line before ordering, often from
scarce data.


... They do not start creaking after a short
time as was stated and they have lower rotational friction under
load.


I understand that. What I don't understand is this: I have helped
replace wheel bearings on offroad motorcycles. These weren't much bigger
and they are exposed to way more load and hammering. Fully loaded bike,
rider, tent, food, booze, clothes, air mattress and so on, blasting over
rutted trails at 40mph or more. Those bearings lasted north of 50k
miles. They weren't even shot, it was just PM.

If there just was an ES25 replacement where the left cup isn't plastic
I'd be happy. For my 1982 road bike there was but maybe I am out of luck
for the MTB even though it's a 2103 model year.

You keep talking about that plastic cup. Is this because you *think*
it might fail or because it *has* failed? I suspect the former as had
it actually failed you would have trumpeted the fact to the Heavens.


I have not seen those fail but lot of other plastic parts on bicycles.
Many of which I then replaced with aluminum.


Mr. Muzi probably has more experience with those cartridge BB's then
(again) probably the rest of the group combined. I wonder whether he
might care to comment on the frequency, in his experience, that those
plastic cups fail?

Of course Mr. Muzi is not from California and I'm sure he doesn't
spend all his time drinking home brewed beer, but still, his
experiences might prove informative.


You are correct. Nylon cups, while ugly and inexpensive (perhaps a
feature, maybe merely declasse) are much less trouble than steel or
aluminum cups. They don't move, corrode or crack as metal cups sometimes
do /in extremis/ .


Thanks. Then I'll just rip the thing out and replace it with another
ES25. And then 5k miles later another ...

At a cost of $0.004296 a mile.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 10:35:05 -0700 (PDT), Doug Landau
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 5:40:55 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 07:14:22 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-14 19:03, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 10:31:38 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-14 10:17, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/14/2017 12:06 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-14 08:51, wrote:
On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 8:29:42 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:

Quit whining and buy a 105 compact crank with a $16 external
bearing BB. Your bike has no historical value and maintaining a bad
standard will just bring you back in one or two years with the same
complaints -- and the endless comparisons to the longevity of 25lb
car parts.

Well I have to agree with your idea if not your attitude.


When buying a $1k mainstream bicycle I expect things to last. People
with external bearings out here fare no better as their BBs also
develop creaks and bearing play after a few thousand miles.

It's similar with road bikes. A friend only buys high-class hubs
costing north of $200 a pop. They don't last longer than mine.

You need to move out of that Bermuda-Triangle-hell-hole where everything
breaks, nothing works, everything is dangerous and bicyclists can barely
survive.


If you read more carefully, as suggested often, you'd have noticed that
it isn't broken but simply _worn_ out.

But even a casual look at available You Tube films shows a guy
successfully rebuilding a cartridge BB
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lar7mIMmTRE


It's a square taper BB.


And another replacing the O.B. model's bearings
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hklHC2ae04g


That one would not fit my MTB.


My mother used to say, when I was whining about something, "The Good
Lord helps those who help themselves".


I have seen such videos when looking for a replacement for my road bike.
As I have mentioned in this thread one of the objectives is not to have
that dreaded plastic left cup anymore. Plastic has IMHO no place in a
high-stress area on a bicycle. For the road bike I could replace with
UN-55. It has an aluminum left cup which isn't ideal but at least not
plastic. So it'll hopefully last longer than 5k miles.

You seem to have a multitude of reasons why you cannot undertake
something that other's have successfully accomplished... and posted a
video showing how to do it.

Other's what? Other's wives? Other's children? Please be specific. And which other?

Gee, here we were talking about bicycles and here you jump in with
wives and kids. Is it that you don't read well? Or just don't
comprehend what you read?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 16:08:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 8/16/2017 9:33 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-15 18:20, jbeattie wrote:


That ship sailed when you got Octalink.


When buying an MTB that isn't completely custom-assembled there isn't
much choice.

Poor Joerg.

All my bikes were "custom assembled". Some more then once :-) New
wheels, new crank set, new hand;e bars, new seat..... the list just
goes on and on.

But thanks to Joerg I no longer answer, "Yup, did it myself" when
someone asks me something like did I replaced the seat. Now when asked
"Oh! How did you get that new seat?" I reply, "custom assembled".
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 6:56:17 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 16:08:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 8/16/2017 9:33 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-15 18:20, jbeattie wrote:


That ship sailed when you got Octalink.


When buying an MTB that isn't completely custom-assembled there isn't
much choice.

Poor Joerg.

All my bikes were "custom assembled". Some more then once :-) New
wheels, new crank set, new hand;e bars, new seat..... the list just
goes on and on.

But thanks to Joerg I no longer answer, "Yup, did it myself" when
someone asks me something like did I replaced the seat. Now when asked
"Oh! How did you get that new seat?" I reply, "custom assembled".

Sort of OT, but I discovered my Cannondale CX commuter bike frame was broken while cleaning it on my work stand, so I just stripped off the parts and continued cleaning the frame to get it ready to take back to the local dealer. I took it back and was called later because the Cannondale rep wanted to see the "whole bike" to make sure it hadn't been crashed, etc. So, I ended up taking pictures of the parts -- which, except for the shifters and cable discs, we're all replacements. The OE Truvativ Isis crank was crap. I was going through ISIS BBs like Kleenex. That got replaced. The bars broke on my way to work (Cinelli). The stem was too short. The rear derailleur wore out. The OE Cannondale hubs wore out in less than two years -- they had ****ty, draggy seals and open bearings that couldn't hack all the wet weather. I built a new set of wheels including a generator front wheel. I changed the seatpost and saddle. I'm on a Cinelli saddle from 1976 -- great saddle -- and a Thompson post. The OE seat post and Fizik saddle is on my son's CAAD 9 and is worn out. I threw in a new headset at year ten.

I should be like Joerg and complain about spending money on replacements. My crappy ISIS BB didn't last a lifetime! ISIS was the only thing worse than Octalink.

BTW, the pictures of all the non-OE stuff were good enough. My new frame is in. Warranty replacement after 12 years -- free of charge. That's my fifth (?) Cannondale replacement since 1984. It's going to hang on the wall for a while since I already bought a replacement. My next big purchase will be replacement for my roof-rack catastrophe SuperSix. That's underway -- a Trek direct from my friends at the company. I've totally shifted brand loyalty.

Buy stuff! Keep the economy strong!

-- Jay Beattie.