Trail-proof mounting of panniers and battery

On 2015-12-05 16:00, Doug Landau wrote:
On Saturday, December 5, 2015 at 8:26:41 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-12-04 14:30, Doug Landau wrote:
On Friday, December 4, 2015 at 10:45:23 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
Folks,

Since everything will be caked in mud I took some quick photos.
Not great but things can be seen well enough.

Problem #1 was that panniers either ride up and down into the
bungees and thus the hooks lift off all the time or with clip
systems things rattle.

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Rack1.JPG

I pulled rubber from an old fairly thick road bike tube over
the hooks of Nashbar Daytrekker panniers. The blue Perspex
panel pushes down on these from above and provides some
mechanical tension, holding them firmly and rattle-free in
place.

Farther below is a U-shaped piece I made from aircraft-grade
aluminum. This is what the Perspex panel pulls against. At the
same time it stiffens up the side supports which do not attach
to the frame below, on account of the full suspension structure
of my mountain bike. This substantially reduces the sway with a
full pannier load. It is important that nothing protrudes
towards the inside of those side support tubes. Just in case
the tire rubs against it during a crash or something. As a side
benefit this resulted in two "secret stash locations" if
needed. Maybe I'll cram the spare tube in there some day.

Problem #2 was that larger batteries cannot be mounted solidly
enough for rough trails, certainly not in those wimpy canvas
pouches that come with them. So I built this

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Battbox1.JPG

and mounted it this way

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Battbox2.JPG

The battery is mechanically buffered and won't move out of
position. I used chunks from a blown super-thick MTB tube for
that. 0.160" or 4mm wall thickness. The switch cuts power to
the lights in case of a crash or when parking for longer
periods. Haven't affixed a crash release rope yet though. The
main reason for it is that dreaded green "Ready-LED" that
consumes about 10mA all the time for nothing. Not that great
when parking the bike for many days. I also provided a 4A fuse
which is very important with Li-Ion batteries. The charge port
is under the saddle and can also be used to siphon power for
other stuff such as computers or cell phones. This might
require a regulator because it's about 8V. On my wish list
there is a "bush-proof" radio with MP3 for the more boring
prairie stretches where it won't bother anyone.

So far it all held up well even on rough turf. The battery
easily lasts five hours with the ship fully lit at 8W. If not
full the panniers should be stuffed with bubble wrap or the
like so the contents don't slosh around.

Never leave any sharp protrusions. The bolt in the last picture
is there to take another little box of electronics for the rear
light.

In case someone builts this, the usual disclaimer: You do this
fully at your own risk. I just wanted to show the group how I
solved the problems on my MTB.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Those are Jandd? And you tighten the cinch straps?


They are Nashbar Daytrekkers. Very sturdy stuff. They have strong
bungees for mounting them but as usual it never really fits the
rack at hand, neither on my MTB nor the road bike (I got the same
panniers on that). Bungee plus hooks isn't reliable for an MTB
anyhow if you ride rough trails. Eventually it'll fly off.

The straps on the side just hold down the lids but there are also
secondary inner lids so that water has a hard time finding ingress.
I don't think these panniers are 100% watertight but good enough. I
pack sensitive stuff such as food, tools and the cell phone in
ziplock bags.

My eyes must be going bad. Are the hooks by which it they hang from
the rack visible in the foto?


Not really. It's the classic pannier style with two metal hooks on each
pannier. The panniers get hung into the side rails of the rack just like
you would hook a paint bucket onto a step of a ladder. The black bungees
in the photo are supposed to pull the downwards with enough force so the
hooks don't lift themselves back out (upwards) too far when going over
bumps. Must be hooked into something at the bottom near the rear axle.
That sort of works for road bikes but only if you don't ride on rough
turf. For mountain bikes it does not work at all.


... Are those leather carrying handles at
the bottom of the foto, going parallel to the rack members, or are
they 2" long (wide?) metal hooks?


You can see the bungees (shiny black "snakes") but they aren't used at
all and not hooked in. The leather-looking pieces at the bottom are
snippets of an old MTB tire which (like usual ...) had failed in the
side walls. They act as cushions. Longterm I'll make some steel strips
that get screwed in place instead of the green-jacketed fence wire.
Looks a little less redneck style that way :-)

This whole excercise was necessary because bicycles and their
accessories are inferior to motorcycles. I could only find panniers with
hooks and bungees like mine or with clasps like the rather expensive
Ortlieb series. Neither suffices for serious MTB rides. Cinch straps
aren't suitable either because that results in excessive force into the
hooks when things vibrate and sway, and they do so a lot. They'd also
have to be cinched down so much that they'd tug too much on the pannier
mounts. There needs to be something that allows very little vertical
movement at the bottom but in a very dampened fashion so it won't let go
after a sharp jolt - perfect use for an old tire. On motorcycles it's
much better, they feature side storage boxes that are screwed on. It is
also quite easy to install those engine-mount style if needed. For the
MTB I'd then have to build both the rack and the panniers myself. Maybe
some day but for now I just want to ride, ride, ride.

I rode several hours with this setup and it seems very sturdy. On Friday
the ride was so rough that despite stuffing with bubble wrap all bottles
in the left pannier turned themselves upside down. Maybe I should
install some cinch straps or bungees inside the panniers.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 12/6/2015 8:09 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

This whole excercise was necessary because bicycles and their
accessories are inferior to motorcycles. I could only find panniers with
hooks and bungees like mine or with clasps like the rather expensive
Ortlieb series. Neither suffices for serious MTB rides. Cinch straps
aren't suitable either because that results in excessive force into the
hooks when things vibrate and sway, and they do so a lot.

Hmm, I use Kangaroo brand panniers, and I chose them after the "falling
off" issues with panniers that used elastic cords or springs. They are
more trouble to take on and off than panniers with cords or springs but
the hooks have never bent or broken, and I have taken them mountain
biking in the Sierras, in a snowstorm.

The Kangraroo Baggs were made in the U.S.A. and were not cheap, but I
bought a bunch of them direct and was selling them at cost to people in
the bicycle club. Out of business of course.

Today I'd get Arkel panniers.

On 12/6/2015 11:09 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-12-05 16:00, Doug Landau wrote:


My eyes must be going bad. Are the hooks by which it they hang from
the rack visible in the foto?


Not really. It's the classic pannier style with two metal hooks on each
pannier. The panniers get hung into the side rails of the rack just like
you would hook a paint bucket onto a step of a ladder. The black bungees
in the photo are supposed to pull the downwards with enough force so the
hooks don't lift themselves back out (upwards) too far when going over
bumps. Must be hooked into something at the bottom near the rear axle.
That sort of works for road bikes but only if you don't ride on rough
turf. For mountain bikes it does not work at all.

I still sometimes use an ancient set of Tailwind (i.e. aerodynamic)
panniers. They fasten to the rack via the usual metal hooks, except
each hook is drilled to accept a clevis pin like this one
http://www.cads.com/Clevis%20Pin.jpg
just below the rack's horizontal rod.

They're more of a pain to attach and detach, and it may require a little
padding to prevent rattles, but they certainly can't shake loose.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2015-12-06 08:53, sms wrote:
On 12/6/2015 8:09 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

This whole excercise was necessary because bicycles and their
accessories are inferior to motorcycles. I could only find panniers with
hooks and bungees like mine or with clasps like the rather expensive
Ortlieb series. Neither suffices for serious MTB rides. Cinch straps
aren't suitable either because that results in excessive force into the
hooks when things vibrate and sway, and they do so a lot.

Hmm, I use Kangaroo brand panniers, and I chose them after the "falling
off" issues with panniers that used elastic cords or springs. They are
more trouble to take on and off than panniers with cords or springs but
the hooks have never bent or broken, and I have taken them mountain
biking in the Sierras, in a snowstorm.

The Kangraroo Baggs were made in the U.S.A. and were not cheap, but I
bought a bunch of them direct and was selling them at cost to people in
the bicycle club. Out of business of course.

Today I'd get Arkel panniers.


Velcro and such? Longterm that wouldn't stand the slightest chance on my
usual rides.

http://www.arkel-od.com/en/dry-lites.html

The other problem is that nearly all panniers are too large. Most people
out in my area don't need to carry a tent, pots, pans and the kitchen
sink. Just a good set of tools, spare tube, numerous water bottles,
food, a sturdy lock, maybe a netbook. 2-3 gallons of space is fine for
that. This is why most riders who go longer than the 1-2h training rides
carry oversized hydration packs. But I found that those packs make me
sweat profusely.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2015-12-06 09:08, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/6/2015 11:09 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-12-05 16:00, Doug Landau wrote:


My eyes must be going bad. Are the hooks by which it they hang from
the rack visible in the foto?


Not really. It's the classic pannier style with two metal hooks on each
pannier. The panniers get hung into the side rails of the rack just like
you would hook a paint bucket onto a step of a ladder. The black bungees
in the photo are supposed to pull the downwards with enough force so the
hooks don't lift themselves back out (upwards) too far when going over
bumps. Must be hooked into something at the bottom near the rear axle.
That sort of works for road bikes but only if you don't ride on rough
turf. For mountain bikes it does not work at all.

I still sometimes use an ancient set of Tailwind (i.e. aerodynamic)
panniers. They fasten to the rack via the usual metal hooks, except
each hook is drilled to accept a clevis pin like this one
http://www.cads.com/Clevis%20Pin.jpg
just below the rack's horizontal rod.

They're more of a pain to attach and detach, and it may require a little
padding to prevent rattles, but they certainly can't shake loose.



http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Jim-...047675.l255 7

Hey, one even has a bullet hole :-)

I think they are no longer sold, never seen them. They'd be the right
size for 4-6h rides but I would not trust those pins on a steep rocky
trail. Buffering requires a large surface area and the shafts of such
pins would squish any sort of plastic or rubber apart. My panniers have
to withstand this, here is one of my routes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5cjAW_nrl4

I thought about drilling holes into the hooks and fashining some sort of
screw clamp. But that would again be a point contact into the luggage
rack frame and very prone to wear out. Heck, even the cables slapping
against the top of my fork crown have left grooves in the aluminum by now.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 06/12/2015 16:09, Joerg wrote:

This whole excercise was necessary because bicycles and their
accessories are inferior to motorcycles. I could only find panniers with
hooks and bungees like mine or with clasps like the rather expensive
Ortlieb series.

I've not had a pannier with a simple hook for 20 years. First were the
karrimors with a little clip which went under the rail. Then the
Carradice ones with a rather more substantial clip. And also some
Ortliebs. I don't have problems with side way, so don't bother with the
lower clamp on several of the bikes.

http://www.carradice.co.uk/pdf/C%20S...structions.pdf

If the pannier rack is the right diameter, they don't rattle. If it's
thinner, a piece of rubber would sort that.

On 2015-12-06 10:15, Clive George wrote:
On 06/12/2015 16:09, Joerg wrote:

This whole excercise was necessary because bicycles and their
accessories are inferior to motorcycles. I could only find panniers with
hooks and bungees like mine or with clasps like the rather expensive
Ortlieb series.

I've not had a pannier with a simple hook for 20 years. First were the
karrimors with a little clip which went under the rail. Then the
Carradice ones with a rather more substantial clip. And also some
Ortliebs. I don't have problems with side way, so don't bother with the
lower clamp on several of the bikes.

http://www.carradice.co.uk/pdf/C%20S...structions.pdf

If the pannier rack is the right diameter, they don't rattle. If it's
thinner, a piece of rubber would sort that.


IME anything rubber that is not under pressure the whole time isn't
going to survive on a heavily used MTB. It gets pounded into chunks.
That's the problem with clasp systems which do not have a substantial
and more or less constant force grasping whatever is inside them. There
is only a fixed inner diameter. That's what the perspex plate in the
photo fixes because it is always under pressure.

Even better would be pannier systems that get screwed onto the luggage
rack frame but I have only seen those for motorcycles and they are too
large.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

http://www.qvsdirect.com/media/catal...large-01_1.jpg

On 2015-12-07 10:56, wrote:


http://www.qvsdirect.com/media/catal...large-01_1.jpg


The challenge would be to mount that unless you can send in trained mice
with power screwdrivers.

I thought about replacing all the mounting hardware on the panniers.
Aside from losing any warranty it might work. But the method I chose is
in the end easier. Slide in the Perspex plate, lower the whole chebang,
tighten two nuts on the carriage bolts with a regular wrench set, done.
At the same time the big aluminum bracket below greatly stabilizes the
side members of the rack which was a major problem before.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/