Carbon Bars

On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 2:09:56 PM UTC-7, Duane wrote:
wrote:
On Friday, November 1, 2019 at 10:16:22 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 3:01:18 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/31/2019 4:16 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
I have a carbon bar on the Lemond. Initially I had an aluminum stem
with those super narrow front pieces that I was using with the carbon
bar. That was not a good idea.

I hit a good bump and the bar rotated.

So I got an Easton carbon stem with a wider contact surface and next
time I hit a good bump the damn thing rotated again. I nearly lost
control when this happened but luckily I was able to retain enough
control to bring it to a stop.

Then I bought yet another Chinese stem that had a full frontal contact
plate. The other day on a fast descent I again hit a large bump in a
turn and again nearly lost it.

I remembered Andrew and Jay talking about "carbon paste" so I went and
got some and applied it as the shop recommended. This seemed to make a
difference until this morning: I was almost at my coffee stop and had
been pushing it so was fairly exhausted and I had a string of cars
behind me on a narrow section of road. I attempted to cut to the
inside of a turn to allow these cars to race by since they had to get
to the stop sign a block away in a hurry. On the inside of the turn
was one of those really rough spots that is hidden in bad asphalt and
as I hit it my bars rotated yet again. I kept control of the bike but
just by the skin of my teeth.

Back to Aluminum bars for me. And I suggest that none of you use
carbon bars. At the coffee stop the owner has a set of tools for the
bikes since he gets a lot of groups in there. (This morning was pretty
cold and my groves turned out to be too tight so my left hand had lost
feeling and I couldn't shift - he asked me if I needed a hug (no he isn't))

In any case, after I loosened, rotated back into position and then
tightened the bar I pushed on it and was quite surprised to see the bar flex.

Now they do make carbon bar/stem one piece combination that would be
OK but no more two piece carbon setups for me. I guess this is why the
pro's use the one piece bar/stem.


Glad you were not injured.

Modern light stems/bars, and not only carbon, need careful
setup with carbon paste, even torque to manufacturer
specified values and lubricated threads except where
manufacturer specifies dry or threadlock. Also, take care to
keep the faceplate evenly spaced top and bottom (and side to
side on a four-bolt) during torque sequence and especially
at final torque. Insufficient or uneven torque is bad but
overtorque is equally bad or worse. Get a proper scaled or
click wrench if you don't have one already.

To repeat, modern ultralight aluminum stems share many
foibles with carbon stems. The days of 'crank it tight and
go ride' have ended.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I am most certainly NOT a fan of precise torqueing. That was what I
originally did with this bar and it promptly not only rotated on the
first hard bump but it rubbed all of the grit on the bar interface off..
Tightening it to what I felt was correct greatly improved the "hold" but
it too slipped. Then I added carbon paste as directed and while it took
a hell of a bump it too slipped though nowhere near as badly as the
initially installed and torqued.

Not a fan of precise torquing? What does that mean? You are a fan of
imprecise torquing? That is weird for someone with a technical
background. If my CF handlebars slipped and the grit of the interface was
rubbed off I would consider the handlebar as not safe anymore and replaced it.
I build my bike with a CF handlebar 5 years ago. Torqued it precise to
spec and it never slipped. Never touched it after the initial build


Lou


I didn’t build my bike myself but I bought it from a shop I trust.. Never
had any problems with the bar slipping. Never really heard of this as an
issue...

Well, neither did I. But then most of my carbon bars weren't designed with minimal weight in mind.

On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 12:45:30 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 9:42:01 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, November 1, 2019 at 10:18:50 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 5:35:23 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 2:16:37 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
I have a carbon bar on the Lemond. Initially I had an aluminum stem with those super narrow front pieces that I was using with the carbon bar. That was not a good idea.

I hit a good bump and the bar rotated.

So I got an Easton carbon stem with a wider contact surface and next time I hit a good bump the damn thing rotated again. I nearly lost control when this happened but luckily I was able to retain enough control to bring it to a stop.

Then I bought yet another Chinese stem that had a full frontal contact plate. The other day on a fast descent I again hit a large bump in a turn and again nearly lost it.

I remembered Andrew and Jay talking about "carbon paste" so I went and got some and applied it as the shop recommended. This seemed to make a difference until this morning: I was almost at my coffee stop and had been pushing it so was fairly exhausted and I had a string of cars behind me on a narrow section of road. I attempted to cut to the inside of a turn to allow these cars to race by since they had to get to the stop sign a block away in a hurry. On the inside of the turn was one of those really rough spots that is hidden in bad asphalt and as I hit it my bars rotated yet again. I kept control of the bike but just by the skin of my teeth.

Back to Aluminum bars for me. And I suggest that none of you use carbon bars. At the coffee stop the owner has a set of tools for the bikes since he gets a lot of groups in there. (This morning was pretty cold and my groves turned out to be too tight so my left hand had lost feeling and I couldn't shift - he asked me if I needed a hug (no he isn't))

In any case, after I loosened, rotated back into position and then tightened the bar I pushed on it and was quite surprised to see the bar flex.

Now they do make carbon bar/stem one piece combination that would be OK but no more two piece carbon setups for me. I guess this is why the pro's use the one piece bar/stem.

What carbon bars do you have? Do they have a slick center-section? Are they undersized? I've had carbon bars on one bike or another for fifteen years with no problems. Slippage is not an inherent quality of carbon bars.

-- Jay Beattie.

I think that the real problem is that they are built to minimum weight more than anything else. I think I wouldn't have any problem with a bar built to these standards if it had a molded in stem. For awhile you could get those pretty cheap but now you're looking at $200 a pop.

If you get nervous about 200 dollar for a one piece CF handlebar-stem combo I wonder what CF handlebar you use now. A CF handlebar alone from a respectable manufacturer already cost over 200 euro on this side of the pond:

https://www.bike-components.de/en/co...aterial=carbon


Pfff. https://tinyurl.com/y6j72h4u Get four! I defended ControlTech a million years ago when some guy sued after his MTB bars broke. The bars were some Chinese aluminum crap with ControlTech bar-ends made in Washington. The bar-ends didn't break, but ControlTech got sued anyway. My handlebar expert in that case was a great guy from Easton who designed and built bars in LA. I learned that there is a lot more to making a good handlebar than one might think. If you go cheap light weight Chinese carbon or aluminum, you're asking for at least some trouble. I suspect TK got the Alibaba sale table bars.

-- Jay Beattie.

https://tinyurl.com/y4agbgxs

Testing shows that when carbon bars break it is almost always at the stem So this keeps the bar in one piece and manageable unless you hit so hard you break both sides off.

On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 2:57:39 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 12:45:30 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 9:42:01 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, November 1, 2019 at 10:18:50 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 5:35:23 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 2:16:37 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
I have a carbon bar on the Lemond. Initially I had an aluminum stem with those super narrow front pieces that I was using with the carbon bar. That was not a good idea.

I hit a good bump and the bar rotated.

So I got an Easton carbon stem with a wider contact surface and next time I hit a good bump the damn thing rotated again. I nearly lost control when this happened but luckily I was able to retain enough control to bring it to a stop.

Then I bought yet another Chinese stem that had a full frontal contact plate. The other day on a fast descent I again hit a large bump in a turn and again nearly lost it.

I remembered Andrew and Jay talking about "carbon paste" so I went and got some and applied it as the shop recommended. This seemed to make a difference until this morning: I was almost at my coffee stop and had been pushing it so was fairly exhausted and I had a string of cars behind me on a narrow section of road. I attempted to cut to the inside of a turn to allow these cars to race by since they had to get to the stop sign a block away in a hurry. On the inside of the turn was one of those really rough spots that is hidden in bad asphalt and as I hit it my bars rotated yet again. I kept control of the bike but just by the skin of my teeth.

Back to Aluminum bars for me. And I suggest that none of you use carbon bars. At the coffee stop the owner has a set of tools for the bikes since he gets a lot of groups in there. (This morning was pretty cold and my groves turned out to be too tight so my left hand had lost feeling and I couldn't shift - he asked me if I needed a hug (no he isn't))

In any case, after I loosened, rotated back into position and then tightened the bar I pushed on it and was quite surprised to see the bar flex.

Now they do make carbon bar/stem one piece combination that would be OK but no more two piece carbon setups for me. I guess this is why the pro's use the one piece bar/stem.

What carbon bars do you have? Do they have a slick center-section? Are they undersized? I've had carbon bars on one bike or another for fifteen years with no problems. Slippage is not an inherent quality of carbon bars.

-- Jay Beattie.

I think that the real problem is that they are built to minimum weight more than anything else. I think I wouldn't have any problem with a bar built to these standards if it had a molded in stem. For awhile you could get those pretty cheap but now you're looking at $200 a pop.

If you get nervous about 200 dollar for a one piece CF handlebar-stem combo I wonder what CF handlebar you use now. A CF handlebar alone from a respectable manufacturer already cost over 200 euro on this side of the pond:

https://www.bike-components.de/en/co...aterial=carbon


Pfff. https://tinyurl.com/y6j72h4u Get four! I defended ControlTech a million years ago when some guy sued after his MTB bars broke. The bars were some Chinese aluminum crap with ControlTech bar-ends made in Washington. The bar-ends didn't break, but ControlTech got sued anyway. My handlebar expert in that case was a great guy from Easton who designed and built bars in LA. I learned that there is a lot more to making a good handlebar than one might think. If you go cheap light weight Chinese carbon or aluminum, you're asking for at least some trouble. I suspect TK got the Alibaba sale table bars.

-- Jay Beattie.

https://tinyurl.com/y4agbgxs

Testing shows that when carbon bars break it is almost always at the stem So this keeps the bar in one piece and manageable unless you hit so hard you break both sides off.

Testing shows that buying Chinese crap is generally a bad idea. https://www..youtube.com/watch?v=6QBRjp9-uJg&t=59s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJT7pHOGzMo&t=372s


You're a super-wealthy investor, so get a decent pair of bars and not some Chinese crap from a company that rips-off Easton's product names. I wouldn't buy those bars just because of the shady IP practice. Or don't you care about buying American?

-- Jay Beattie.

On Sunday, 3 November 2019 10:17:37 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 2:57:39 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 12:45:30 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 9:42:01 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, November 1, 2019 at 10:18:50 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 5:35:23 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 2:16:37 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
I have a carbon bar on the Lemond. Initially I had an aluminum stem with those super narrow front pieces that I was using with the carbon bar. That was not a good idea.

I hit a good bump and the bar rotated.

So I got an Easton carbon stem with a wider contact surface and next time I hit a good bump the damn thing rotated again. I nearly lost control when this happened but luckily I was able to retain enough control to bring it to a stop.

Then I bought yet another Chinese stem that had a full frontal contact plate. The other day on a fast descent I again hit a large bump in a turn and again nearly lost it.

I remembered Andrew and Jay talking about "carbon paste" so I went and got some and applied it as the shop recommended. This seemed to make a difference until this morning: I was almost at my coffee stop and had been pushing it so was fairly exhausted and I had a string of cars behind me on a narrow section of road. I attempted to cut to the inside of a turn to allow these cars to race by since they had to get to the stop sign a block away in a hurry. On the inside of the turn was one of those really rough spots that is hidden in bad asphalt and as I hit it my bars rotated yet again. I kept control of the bike but just by the skin of my teeth.

Back to Aluminum bars for me. And I suggest that none of you use carbon bars. At the coffee stop the owner has a set of tools for the bikes since he gets a lot of groups in there. (This morning was pretty cold and my groves turned out to be too tight so my left hand had lost feeling and I couldn't shift - he asked me if I needed a hug (no he isn't))

In any case, after I loosened, rotated back into position and then tightened the bar I pushed on it and was quite surprised to see the bar flex.

Now they do make carbon bar/stem one piece combination that would be OK but no more two piece carbon setups for me. I guess this is why the pro's use the one piece bar/stem.

What carbon bars do you have? Do they have a slick center-section? Are they undersized? I've had carbon bars on one bike or another for fifteen years with no problems. Slippage is not an inherent quality of carbon bars.

-- Jay Beattie.

I think that the real problem is that they are built to minimum weight more than anything else. I think I wouldn't have any problem with a bar built to these standards if it had a molded in stem. For awhile you could get those pretty cheap but now you're looking at $200 a pop.

If you get nervous about 200 dollar for a one piece CF handlebar-stem combo I wonder what CF handlebar you use now. A CF handlebar alone from a respectable manufacturer already cost over 200 euro on this side of the pond:

https://www.bike-components.de/en/co...aterial=carbon


Pfff. https://tinyurl.com/y6j72h4u Get four! I defended ControlTech a million years ago when some guy sued after his MTB bars broke. The bars were some Chinese aluminum crap with ControlTech bar-ends made in Washington. The bar-ends didn't break, but ControlTech got sued anyway. My handlebar expert in that case was a great guy from Easton who designed and built bars in LA. I learned that there is a lot more to making a good handlebar than one might think. If you go cheap light weight Chinese carbon or aluminum, you're asking for at least some trouble. I suspect TK got the Alibaba sale table bars.

-- Jay Beattie.

https://tinyurl.com/y4agbgxs

Testing shows that when carbon bars break it is almost always at the stem So this keeps the bar in one piece and manageable unless you hit so hard you break both sides off.

Testing shows that buying Chinese crap is generally a bad idea. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QBRjp9-uJg&t=59s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJT7pHOGzMo&t=372s


You're a super-wealthy investor, so get a decent pair of bars and not some Chinese crap from a company that rips-off Easton's product names. I wouldn't buy those bars just because of the shady IP practice. Or don't you care about buying American?

-- Jay Beattie.

I don't know why anyone with previous problems with Chinese made carbon stop would continue to buy off-brand Chinese crap. Buying off-brand stuff made in China is a real crap shoot and your well-being is put at risk every time you use it. You simply don't know what you're getting with Chinese off-brand bicycle stuff.

Cheers

On 11/3/2019 2:30 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 3 November 2019 10:17:37 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 2:57:39 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 12:45:30 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 9:42:01 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, November 1, 2019 at 10:18:50 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 5:35:23 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 2:16:37 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
I have a carbon bar on the Lemond. Initially I had an aluminum stem with those super narrow front pieces that I was using with the carbon bar. That was not a good idea.

I hit a good bump and the bar rotated.

So I got an Easton carbon stem with a wider contact surface and next time I hit a good bump the damn thing rotated again. I nearly lost control when this happened but luckily I was able to retain enough control to bring it to a stop.

Then I bought yet another Chinese stem that had a full frontal contact plate. The other day on a fast descent I again hit a large bump in a turn and again nearly lost it.

I remembered Andrew and Jay talking about "carbon paste" so I went and got some and applied it as the shop recommended. This seemed to make a difference until this morning: I was almost at my coffee stop and had been pushing it so was fairly exhausted and I had a string of cars behind me on a narrow section of road. I attempted to cut to the inside of a turn to allow these cars to race by since they had to get to the stop sign a block away in a hurry. On the inside of the turn was one of those really rough spots that is hidden in bad asphalt and as I hit it my bars rotated yet again. I kept control of the bike but just by the skin of my teeth.

Back to Aluminum bars for me. And I suggest that none of you use carbon bars. At the coffee stop the owner has a set of tools for the bikes since he gets a lot of groups in there. (This morning was pretty cold and my groves turned out to be too tight so my left hand had lost feeling and I couldn't shift - he asked me if I needed a hug (no he isn't))

In any case, after I loosened, rotated back into position and then tightened the bar I pushed on it and was quite surprised to see the bar flex.

Now they do make carbon bar/stem one piece combination that would be OK but no more two piece carbon setups for me. I guess this is why the pro's use the one piece bar/stem.

What carbon bars do you have? Do they have a slick center-section? Are they undersized? I've had carbon bars on one bike or another for fifteen years with no problems. Slippage is not an inherent quality of carbon bars.

-- Jay Beattie.

I think that the real problem is that they are built to minimum weight more than anything else. I think I wouldn't have any problem with a bar built to these standards if it had a molded in stem. For awhile you could get those pretty cheap but now you're looking at $200 a pop.

If you get nervous about 200 dollar for a one piece CF handlebar-stem combo I wonder what CF handlebar you use now. A CF handlebar alone from a respectable manufacturer already cost over 200 euro on this side of the pond:

https://www.bike-components.de/en/co...aterial=carbon


Pfff. https://tinyurl.com/y6j72h4u Get four! I defended ControlTech a million years ago when some guy sued after his MTB bars broke. The bars were some Chinese aluminum crap with ControlTech bar-ends made in Washington. The bar-ends didn't break, but ControlTech got sued anyway. My handlebar expert in that case was a great guy from Easton who designed and built bars in LA. I learned that there is a lot more to making a good handlebar than one might think. If you go cheap light weight Chinese carbon or aluminum, you're asking for at least some trouble. I suspect TK got the Alibaba sale table bars.

-- Jay Beattie.

https://tinyurl.com/y4agbgxs

Testing shows that when carbon bars break it is almost always at the stem So this keeps the bar in one piece and manageable unless you hit so hard you break both sides off.

Testing shows that buying Chinese crap is generally a bad idea. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QBRjp9-uJg&t=59s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJT7pHOGzMo&t=372s


You're a super-wealthy investor, so get a decent pair of bars and not some Chinese crap from a company that rips-off Easton's product names. I wouldn't buy those bars just because of the shady IP practice. Or don't you care about buying American?

-- Jay Beattie.

I don't know why anyone with previous problems with Chinese made carbon stop would continue to buy off-brand Chinese crap. Buying off-brand stuff made in China is a real crap shoot and your well-being is put at risk every time you use it. You simply don't know what you're getting with Chinese off-brand bicycle stuff.

And I don't know why someone in Tom's situation would be trying to shave
grams from his bike at all. What's the benefit? To beat some other 75
year old to the top of a hill? To win an imaginary Masters' race? Or
just to brag about bike weight in some coffee shop?

Yes, I know some people are into having the most cutting edge bike
equipment, just as some are into having the most luxurious house, the
coolest car, the awesomest home theater system. I'm not saying it should
be forbidden; but when it goes too far, I think it should be recognized
as a weakness.

And when it descends to repeatedly buying fragile off-brand junk despite
repeatedly suffering failures of that junk, I think it should be treated
as a psychological problem.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sunday, 3 November 2019 16:02:28 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/3/2019 2:30 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 3 November 2019 10:17:37 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 2:57:39 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 12:45:30 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 9:42:01 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, November 1, 2019 at 10:18:50 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 5:35:23 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 2:16:37 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
I have a carbon bar on the Lemond. Initially I had an aluminum stem with those super narrow front pieces that I was using with the carbon bar. That was not a good idea.

I hit a good bump and the bar rotated.

So I got an Easton carbon stem with a wider contact surface and next time I hit a good bump the damn thing rotated again. I nearly lost control when this happened but luckily I was able to retain enough control to bring it to a stop.

Then I bought yet another Chinese stem that had a full frontal contact plate. The other day on a fast descent I again hit a large bump in a turn and again nearly lost it.

I remembered Andrew and Jay talking about "carbon paste" so I went and got some and applied it as the shop recommended. This seemed to make a difference until this morning: I was almost at my coffee stop and had been pushing it so was fairly exhausted and I had a string of cars behind me on a narrow section of road. I attempted to cut to the inside of a turn to allow these cars to race by since they had to get to the stop sign a block away in a hurry. On the inside of the turn was one of those really rough spots that is hidden in bad asphalt and as I hit it my bars rotated yet again.. I kept control of the bike but just by the skin of my teeth.

Back to Aluminum bars for me. And I suggest that none of you use carbon bars. At the coffee stop the owner has a set of tools for the bikes since he gets a lot of groups in there. (This morning was pretty cold and my groves turned out to be too tight so my left hand had lost feeling and I couldn't shift - he asked me if I needed a hug (no he isn't))

In any case, after I loosened, rotated back into position and then tightened the bar I pushed on it and was quite surprised to see the bar flex.

Now they do make carbon bar/stem one piece combination that would be OK but no more two piece carbon setups for me. I guess this is why the pro's use the one piece bar/stem.

What carbon bars do you have? Do they have a slick center-section? Are they undersized? I've had carbon bars on one bike or another for fifteen years with no problems. Slippage is not an inherent quality of carbon bars.

-- Jay Beattie.

I think that the real problem is that they are built to minimum weight more than anything else. I think I wouldn't have any problem with a bar built to these standards if it had a molded in stem. For awhile you could get those pretty cheap but now you're looking at $200 a pop.

If you get nervous about 200 dollar for a one piece CF handlebar-stem combo I wonder what CF handlebar you use now. A CF handlebar alone from a respectable manufacturer already cost over 200 euro on this side of the pond:

https://www.bike-components.de/en/co...aterial=carbon


Pfff. https://tinyurl.com/y6j72h4u Get four! I defended ControlTech a million years ago when some guy sued after his MTB bars broke. The bars were some Chinese aluminum crap with ControlTech bar-ends made in Washington. The bar-ends didn't break, but ControlTech got sued anyway. My handlebar expert in that case was a great guy from Easton who designed and built bars in LA. I learned that there is a lot more to making a good handlebar than one might think. If you go cheap light weight Chinese carbon or aluminum, you're asking for at least some trouble. I suspect TK got the Alibaba sale table bars.

-- Jay Beattie.

https://tinyurl.com/y4agbgxs

Testing shows that when carbon bars break it is almost always at the stem So this keeps the bar in one piece and manageable unless you hit so hard you break both sides off.

Testing shows that buying Chinese crap is generally a bad idea. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QBRjp9-uJg&t=59s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJT7pHOGzMo&t=372s


You're a super-wealthy investor, so get a decent pair of bars and not some Chinese crap from a company that rips-off Easton's product names. I wouldn't buy those bars just because of the shady IP practice. Or don't you care about buying American?

-- Jay Beattie.

I don't know why anyone with previous problems with Chinese made carbon stop would continue to buy off-brand Chinese crap. Buying off-brand stuff made in China is a real crap shoot and your well-being is put at risk every time you use it. You simply don't know what you're getting with Chinese off-brand bicycle stuff.

And I don't know why someone in Tom's situation would be trying to shave
grams from his bike at all. What's the benefit? To beat some other 75
year old to the top of a hill? To win an imaginary Masters' race? Or
just to brag about bike weight in some coffee shop?

Yes, I know some people are into having the most cutting edge bike
equipment, just as some are into having the most luxurious house, the
coolest car, the awesomest home theater system. I'm not saying it should
be forbidden; but when it goes too far, I think it should be recognized
as a weakness.

And when it descends to repeatedly buying fragile off-brand junk despite
repeatedly suffering failures of that junk, I think it should be treated
as a psychological problem.


--
- Frank Krygowski

I can see wanting light stuff or even new stuff. What I can't understand is buying stuff that you know might be suspect as to quality and/or integrity.. A carbon fiber bar failing during an out of the saddle sprint or riding at high speed on a descent (or even flt road) can have rather catastrophic consequences for the bicyclist. They could get that rundown feeling that even Geritol won't relieve.

Cheers

On Sunday, November 3, 2019 at 1:41:36 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 3 November 2019 16:02:28 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/3/2019 2:30 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 3 November 2019 10:17:37 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 2:57:39 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 12:45:30 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 9:42:01 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, November 1, 2019 at 10:18:50 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 5:35:23 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 2:16:37 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
I have a carbon bar on the Lemond. Initially I had an aluminum stem with those super narrow front pieces that I was using with the carbon bar. That was not a good idea.

I hit a good bump and the bar rotated.

So I got an Easton carbon stem with a wider contact surface and next time I hit a good bump the damn thing rotated again. I nearly lost control when this happened but luckily I was able to retain enough control to bring it to a stop.

Then I bought yet another Chinese stem that had a full frontal contact plate. The other day on a fast descent I again hit a large bump in a turn and again nearly lost it.

I remembered Andrew and Jay talking about "carbon paste" so I went and got some and applied it as the shop recommended. This seemed to make a difference until this morning: I was almost at my coffee stop and had been pushing it so was fairly exhausted and I had a string of cars behind me on a narrow section of road. I attempted to cut to the inside of a turn to allow these cars to race by since they had to get to the stop sign a block away in a hurry. On the inside of the turn was one of those really rough spots that is hidden in bad asphalt and as I hit it my bars rotated yet again. I kept control of the bike but just by the skin of my teeth.

Back to Aluminum bars for me. And I suggest that none of you use carbon bars. At the coffee stop the owner has a set of tools for the bikes since he gets a lot of groups in there. (This morning was pretty cold and my groves turned out to be too tight so my left hand had lost feeling and I couldn't shift - he asked me if I needed a hug (no he isn't))

In any case, after I loosened, rotated back into position and then tightened the bar I pushed on it and was quite surprised to see the bar flex.

Now they do make carbon bar/stem one piece combination that would be OK but no more two piece carbon setups for me. I guess this is why the pro's use the one piece bar/stem.

What carbon bars do you have? Do they have a slick center-section? Are they undersized? I've had carbon bars on one bike or another for fifteen years with no problems. Slippage is not an inherent quality of carbon bars.

-- Jay Beattie.

I think that the real problem is that they are built to minimum weight more than anything else. I think I wouldn't have any problem with a bar built to these standards if it had a molded in stem. For awhile you could get those pretty cheap but now you're looking at $200 a pop.

If you get nervous about 200 dollar for a one piece CF handlebar-stem combo I wonder what CF handlebar you use now. A CF handlebar alone from a respectable manufacturer already cost over 200 euro on this side of the pond:

https://www.bike-components.de/en/co...aterial=carbon


Pfff. https://tinyurl.com/y6j72h4u Get four! I defended ControlTech a million years ago when some guy sued after his MTB bars broke. The bars were some Chinese aluminum crap with ControlTech bar-ends made in Washington. The bar-ends didn't break, but ControlTech got sued anyway. My handlebar expert in that case was a great guy from Easton who designed and built bars in LA. I learned that there is a lot more to making a good handlebar than one might think. If you go cheap light weight Chinese carbon or aluminum, you're asking for at least some trouble. I suspect TK got the Alibaba sale table bars.

-- Jay Beattie.

https://tinyurl.com/y4agbgxs

Testing shows that when carbon bars break it is almost always at the stem So this keeps the bar in one piece and manageable unless you hit so hard you break both sides off.

Testing shows that buying Chinese crap is generally a bad idea. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QBRjp9-uJg&t=59s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJT7pHOGzMo&t=372s


You're a super-wealthy investor, so get a decent pair of bars and not some Chinese crap from a company that rips-off Easton's product names. I wouldn't buy those bars just because of the shady IP practice. Or don't you care about buying American?

-- Jay Beattie.

I don't know why anyone with previous problems with Chinese made carbon stop would continue to buy off-brand Chinese crap. Buying off-brand stuff made in China is a real crap shoot and your well-being is put at risk every time you use it. You simply don't know what you're getting with Chinese off-brand bicycle stuff.

And I don't know why someone in Tom's situation would be trying to shave
grams from his bike at all. What's the benefit? To beat some other 75
year old to the top of a hill? To win an imaginary Masters' race? Or
just to brag about bike weight in some coffee shop?

Yes, I know some people are into having the most cutting edge bike
equipment, just as some are into having the most luxurious house, the
coolest car, the awesomest home theater system. I'm not saying it should
be forbidden; but when it goes too far, I think it should be recognized
as a weakness.

And when it descends to repeatedly buying fragile off-brand junk despite
repeatedly suffering failures of that junk, I think it should be treated
as a psychological problem.


--
- Frank Krygowski

I can see wanting light stuff or even new stuff. What I can't understand is buying stuff that you know might be suspect as to quality and/or integrity. A carbon fiber bar failing during an out of the saddle sprint or riding at high speed on a descent (or even flt road) can have rather catastrophic consequences for the bicyclist. They could get that rundown feeling that even Geritol won't relieve.

Tom is convinced that Chinese knock-offs are as good as the real thing -- it's all from the same factory; its the same product, but its just going out the back door instead of the front. That is a wrong assumption.

Unfortunately, I think we're going to start seeing problems with the real, non-knock off products in the next year or so as US brand-owners shift production to Vietnam, Myanmar and elsewhere. I suspect those manufacturers will have manufacturing and raw material/input issues. It's already happening with soft-goods. I'd stick with major brands with domestic distributors so if something does go wrong, there is someone to fix or replace it.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 16:11:37 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Sunday, November 3, 2019 at 1:41:36 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 3 November 2019 16:02:28 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/3/2019 2:30 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 3 November 2019 10:17:37 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 2:57:39 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 12:45:30 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 9:42:01 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, November 1, 2019 at 10:18:50 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 5:35:23 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 2:16:37 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
I have a carbon bar on the Lemond. Initially I had an aluminum stem with those super narrow front pieces that I was using with the carbon bar. That was not a good idea.

I hit a good bump and the bar rotated.

So I got an Easton carbon stem with a wider contact surface and next time I hit a good bump the damn thing rotated again. I nearly lost control when this happened but luckily I was able to retain enough control to bring it to a stop.

Then I bought yet another Chinese stem that had a full frontal contact plate. The other day on a fast descent I again hit a large bump in a turn and again nearly lost it.

I remembered Andrew and Jay talking about "carbon paste" so I went and got some and applied it as the shop recommended. This seemed to make a difference until this morning: I was almost at my coffee stop and had been pushing it so was fairly exhausted and I had a string of cars behind me on a narrow section of road. I attempted to cut to the inside of a turn to allow these cars to race by since they had to get to the stop sign a block away in a hurry. On the inside of the turn was one of those really rough spots that is hidden in bad asphalt and as I hit it my bars rotated yet again. I kept control of the bike but just by the skin of my teeth.

Back to Aluminum bars for me. And I suggest that none of you use carbon bars. At the coffee stop the owner has a set of tools for the bikes since he gets a lot of groups in there. (This morning was pretty cold and my groves turned out to be too tight so my left hand had lost feeling and I couldn't shift - he asked me if I needed a hug (no he isn't))

In any case, after I loosened, rotated back into position and then tightened the bar I pushed on it and was quite surprised to see the bar flex.

Now they do make carbon bar/stem one piece combination that would be OK but no more two piece carbon setups for me. I guess this is why the pro's use the one piece bar/stem.

What carbon bars do you have? Do they have a slick center-section? Are they undersized? I've had carbon bars on one bike or another for fifteen years with no problems. Slippage is not an inherent quality of carbon bars.

-- Jay Beattie.

I think that the real problem is that they are built to minimum weight more than anything else. I think I wouldn't have any problem with a bar built to these standards if it had a molded in stem. For awhile you could get those pretty cheap but now you're looking at $200 a pop.

If you get nervous about 200 dollar for a one piece CF handlebar-stem combo I wonder what CF handlebar you use now. A CF handlebar alone from a respectable manufacturer already cost over 200 euro on this side of the pond:

https://www.bike-components.de/en/co...aterial=carbon


Pfff. https://tinyurl.com/y6j72h4u Get four! I defended ControlTech a million years ago when some guy sued after his MTB bars broke. The bars were some Chinese aluminum crap with ControlTech bar-ends made in Washington. The bar-ends didn't break, but ControlTech got sued anyway. My handlebar expert in that case was a great guy from Easton who designed and built bars in LA. I learned that there is a lot more to making a good handlebar than one might think. If you go cheap light weight Chinese carbon or aluminum, you're asking for at least some trouble. I suspect TK got the Alibaba sale table bars.

-- Jay Beattie.

https://tinyurl.com/y4agbgxs

Testing shows that when carbon bars break it is almost always at the stem So this keeps the bar in one piece and manageable unless you hit so hard you break both sides off.

Testing shows that buying Chinese crap is generally a bad idea. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QBRjp9-uJg&t=59s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJT7pHOGzMo&t=372s


You're a super-wealthy investor, so get a decent pair of bars and not some Chinese crap from a company that rips-off Easton's product names. I wouldn't buy those bars just because of the shady IP practice. Or don't you care about buying American?

-- Jay Beattie.

I don't know why anyone with previous problems with Chinese made carbon stop would continue to buy off-brand Chinese crap. Buying off-brand stuff made in China is a real crap shoot and your well-being is put at risk every time you use it. You simply don't know what you're getting with Chinese off-brand bicycle stuff.

And I don't know why someone in Tom's situation would be trying to shave
grams from his bike at all. What's the benefit? To beat some other 75
year old to the top of a hill? To win an imaginary Masters' race? Or
just to brag about bike weight in some coffee shop?

Yes, I know some people are into having the most cutting edge bike
equipment, just as some are into having the most luxurious house, the
coolest car, the awesomest home theater system. I'm not saying it should
be forbidden; but when it goes too far, I think it should be recognized
as a weakness.

And when it descends to repeatedly buying fragile off-brand junk despite
repeatedly suffering failures of that junk, I think it should be treated
as a psychological problem.


--
- Frank Krygowski

I can see wanting light stuff or even new stuff. What I can't understand is buying stuff that you know might be suspect as to quality and/or integrity. A carbon fiber bar failing during an out of the saddle sprint or riding at high speed on a descent (or even flt road) can have rather catastrophic consequences for the bicyclist. They could get that rundown feeling that even Geritol won't relieve.

Tom is convinced that Chinese knock-offs are as good as the real
thing -- it's all from the same factory; its the same product, but its
just going out the back door instead of the front. That is a wrong
assumption.

Unfortunately, I think we're going to start seeing problems with
the real, non-knock off products in the next year or so as US
brand-owners shift production to Vietnam, Myanmar and elsewhere. I
suspect those manufacturers will have manufacturing and raw
material/input issues. It's already happening with soft-goods. I'd
stick with major brands with domestic distributors so if something
does go wrong, there is someone to fix or replace it.

-- Jay Beattie.

Years ago the Japanese established plants in other countries. I
remember a "Bearing Factory" that I used to pass. In talking to some
of the Thais that worked there they shipped bearing parts from Japan
as Thailand and Japan had trading agreements, assembled them in
Thailand and marked them "Made in Thailand" and shipped them to the
U.S. Now the Chinese are doing the same :-)

There is another point. Minimum salary may now be less in the SEA
countries as China's industrialization is increasing costs there.

Of course, U.S. firms are doing exactly the same thing, both in China
and in SEA countries.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Sunday, November 3, 2019 at 5:03:36 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 16:11:37 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Sunday, November 3, 2019 at 1:41:36 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 3 November 2019 16:02:28 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/3/2019 2:30 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 3 November 2019 10:17:37 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 2:57:39 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 12:45:30 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 9:42:01 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, November 1, 2019 at 10:18:50 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 5:35:23 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 2:16:37 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
I have a carbon bar on the Lemond. Initially I had an aluminum stem with those super narrow front pieces that I was using with the carbon bar. That was not a good idea.

I hit a good bump and the bar rotated.

So I got an Easton carbon stem with a wider contact surface and next time I hit a good bump the damn thing rotated again. I nearly lost control when this happened but luckily I was able to retain enough control to bring it to a stop.

Then I bought yet another Chinese stem that had a full frontal contact plate. The other day on a fast descent I again hit a large bump in a turn and again nearly lost it.

I remembered Andrew and Jay talking about "carbon paste" so I went and got some and applied it as the shop recommended. This seemed to make a difference until this morning: I was almost at my coffee stop and had been pushing it so was fairly exhausted and I had a string of cars behind me on a narrow section of road. I attempted to cut to the inside of a turn to allow these cars to race by since they had to get to the stop sign a block away in a hurry. On the inside of the turn was one of those really rough spots that is hidden in bad asphalt and as I hit it my bars rotated yet again. I kept control of the bike but just by the skin of my teeth.

Back to Aluminum bars for me. And I suggest that none of you use carbon bars. At the coffee stop the owner has a set of tools for the bikes since he gets a lot of groups in there. (This morning was pretty cold and my groves turned out to be too tight so my left hand had lost feeling and I couldn't shift - he asked me if I needed a hug (no he isn't))

In any case, after I loosened, rotated back into position and then tightened the bar I pushed on it and was quite surprised to see the bar flex.

Now they do make carbon bar/stem one piece combination that would be OK but no more two piece carbon setups for me. I guess this is why the pro's use the one piece bar/stem.

What carbon bars do you have? Do they have a slick center-section? Are they undersized? I've had carbon bars on one bike or another for fifteen years with no problems. Slippage is not an inherent quality of carbon bars.

-- Jay Beattie.

I think that the real problem is that they are built to minimum weight more than anything else. I think I wouldn't have any problem with a bar built to these standards if it had a molded in stem. For awhile you could get those pretty cheap but now you're looking at $200 a pop.

If you get nervous about 200 dollar for a one piece CF handlebar-stem combo I wonder what CF handlebar you use now. A CF handlebar alone from a respectable manufacturer already cost over 200 euro on this side of the pond:

https://www.bike-components.de/en/co...aterial=carbon


Pfff. https://tinyurl.com/y6j72h4u Get four! I defended ControlTech a million years ago when some guy sued after his MTB bars broke. The bars were some Chinese aluminum crap with ControlTech bar-ends made in Washington. The bar-ends didn't break, but ControlTech got sued anyway. My handlebar expert in that case was a great guy from Easton who designed and built bars in LA. I learned that there is a lot more to making a good handlebar than one might think. If you go cheap light weight Chinese carbon or aluminum, you're asking for at least some trouble. I suspect TK got the Alibaba sale table bars.

-- Jay Beattie.

https://tinyurl.com/y4agbgxs

Testing shows that when carbon bars break it is almost always at the stem So this keeps the bar in one piece and manageable unless you hit so hard you break both sides off.

Testing shows that buying Chinese crap is generally a bad idea. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QBRjp9-uJg&t=59s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJT7pHOGzMo&t=372s


You're a super-wealthy investor, so get a decent pair of bars and not some Chinese crap from a company that rips-off Easton's product names. I wouldn't buy those bars just because of the shady IP practice. Or don't you care about buying American?

-- Jay Beattie.

I don't know why anyone with previous problems with Chinese made carbon stop would continue to buy off-brand Chinese crap. Buying off-brand stuff made in China is a real crap shoot and your well-being is put at risk every time you use it. You simply don't know what you're getting with Chinese off-brand bicycle stuff.

And I don't know why someone in Tom's situation would be trying to shave
grams from his bike at all. What's the benefit? To beat some other 75
year old to the top of a hill? To win an imaginary Masters' race? Or
just to brag about bike weight in some coffee shop?

Yes, I know some people are into having the most cutting edge bike
equipment, just as some are into having the most luxurious house, the
coolest car, the awesomest home theater system. I'm not saying it should
be forbidden; but when it goes too far, I think it should be recognized
as a weakness.

And when it descends to repeatedly buying fragile off-brand junk despite
repeatedly suffering failures of that junk, I think it should be treated
as a psychological problem.


--
- Frank Krygowski

I can see wanting light stuff or even new stuff. What I can't understand is buying stuff that you know might be suspect as to quality and/or integrity. A carbon fiber bar failing during an out of the saddle sprint or riding at high speed on a descent (or even flt road) can have rather catastrophic consequences for the bicyclist. They could get that rundown feeling that even Geritol won't relieve.

Tom is convinced that Chinese knock-offs are as good as the real
thing -- it's all from the same factory; its the same product, but its
just going out the back door instead of the front. That is a wrong
assumption.

Unfortunately, I think we're going to start seeing problems with
the real, non-knock off products in the next year or so as US
brand-owners shift production to Vietnam, Myanmar and elsewhere. I
suspect those manufacturers will have manufacturing and raw
material/input issues. It's already happening with soft-goods. I'd
stick with major brands with domestic distributors so if something
does go wrong, there is someone to fix or replace it.

-- Jay Beattie.

Years ago the Japanese established plants in other countries. I
remember a "Bearing Factory" that I used to pass. In talking to some
of the Thais that worked there they shipped bearing parts from Japan
as Thailand and Japan had trading agreements, assembled them in
Thailand and marked them "Made in Thailand" and shipped them to the
U.S. Now the Chinese are doing the same :-)

There is another point. Minimum salary may now be less in the SEA
countries as China's industrialization is increasing costs there.

snip

That is true. The two captains of industry with whom I ride (today as a matter of fact) were saying just that: the shift was inevitable as China developed a middle class and became more expensive. We were also talking about illegal laundering of Chinese products (transshipping) through third-countries, and legal laundering by adding value to Chinese inputs. According to US law, the product must be "substantially transformed" and just bolting things together or slapping on a label on it in a third country doesn't cut it. It's still a Chinese product.

They were also talking about 40% tariffs on Chinese products and the price leaps consumers will soon see. The companies were absorbing a lot of the tariff costs, but not any more. Tom's cheap Chinese bars are going up. I think Walmart's giant screen TV deals are a thing of the past.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 17:42:33 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Sunday, November 3, 2019 at 5:03:36 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 16:11:37 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Sunday, November 3, 2019 at 1:41:36 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 3 November 2019 16:02:28 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/3/2019 2:30 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 3 November 2019 10:17:37 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 2:57:39 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 12:45:30 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 9:42:01 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, November 1, 2019 at 10:18:50 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 5:35:23 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 2:16:37 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
I have a carbon bar on the Lemond. Initially I had an aluminum stem with those super narrow front pieces that I was using with the carbon bar. That was not a good idea.

I hit a good bump and the bar rotated.

So I got an Easton carbon stem with a wider contact surface and next time I hit a good bump the damn thing rotated again. I nearly lost control when this happened but luckily I was able to retain enough control to bring it to a stop.

Then I bought yet another Chinese stem that had a full frontal contact plate. The other day on a fast descent I again hit a large bump in a turn and again nearly lost it.

I remembered Andrew and Jay talking about "carbon paste" so I went and got some and applied it as the shop recommended. This seemed to make a difference until this morning: I was almost at my coffee stop and had been pushing it so was fairly exhausted and I had a string of cars behind me on a narrow section of road. I attempted to cut to the inside of a turn to allow these cars to race by since they had to get to the stop sign a block away in a hurry. On the inside of the turn was one of those really rough spots that is hidden in bad asphalt and as I hit it my bars rotated yet again. I kept control of the bike but just by the skin of my teeth.

Back to Aluminum bars for me. And I suggest that none of you use carbon bars. At the coffee stop the owner has a set of tools for the bikes since he gets a lot of groups in there. (This morning was pretty cold and my groves turned out to be too tight so my left hand had lost feeling and I couldn't shift - he asked me if I needed a hug (no he isn't))

In any case, after I loosened, rotated back into position and then tightened the bar I pushed on it and was quite surprised to see the bar flex.

Now they do make carbon bar/stem one piece combination that would be OK but no more two piece carbon setups for me. I guess this is why the pro's use the one piece bar/stem.

What carbon bars do you have? Do they have a slick center-section? Are they undersized? I've had carbon bars on one bike or another for fifteen years with no problems. Slippage is not an inherent quality of carbon bars.

-- Jay Beattie.

I think that the real problem is that they are built to minimum weight more than anything else. I think I wouldn't have any problem with a bar built to these standards if it had a molded in stem. For awhile you could get those pretty cheap but now you're looking at $200 a pop.

If you get nervous about 200 dollar for a one piece CF handlebar-stem combo I wonder what CF handlebar you use now. A CF handlebar alone from a respectable manufacturer already cost over 200 euro on this side of the pond:

https://www.bike-components.de/en/co...aterial=carbon


Pfff. https://tinyurl.com/y6j72h4u Get four! I defended ControlTech a million years ago when some guy sued after his MTB bars broke. The bars were some Chinese aluminum crap with ControlTech bar-ends made in Washington. The bar-ends didn't break, but ControlTech got sued anyway. My handlebar expert in that case was a great guy from Easton who designed and built bars in LA. I learned that there is a lot more to making a good handlebar than one might think. If you go cheap light weight Chinese carbon or aluminum, you're asking for at least some trouble. I suspect TK got the Alibaba sale table bars.

-- Jay Beattie.

https://tinyurl.com/y4agbgxs

Testing shows that when carbon bars break it is almost always at the stem So this keeps the bar in one piece and manageable unless you hit so hard you break both sides off.

Testing shows that buying Chinese crap is generally a bad idea. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QBRjp9-uJg&t=59s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJT7pHOGzMo&t=372s


You're a super-wealthy investor, so get a decent pair of bars and not some Chinese crap from a company that rips-off Easton's product names. I wouldn't buy those bars just because of the shady IP practice. Or don't you care about buying American?

-- Jay Beattie.

I don't know why anyone with previous problems with Chinese made carbon stop would continue to buy off-brand Chinese crap. Buying off-brand stuff made in China is a real crap shoot and your well-being is put at risk every time you use it. You simply don't know what you're getting with Chinese off-brand bicycle stuff.

And I don't know why someone in Tom's situation would be trying to shave
grams from his bike at all. What's the benefit? To beat some other 75
year old to the top of a hill? To win an imaginary Masters' race? Or
just to brag about bike weight in some coffee shop?

Yes, I know some people are into having the most cutting edge bike
equipment, just as some are into having the most luxurious house, the
coolest car, the awesomest home theater system. I'm not saying it should
be forbidden; but when it goes too far, I think it should be recognized
as a weakness.

And when it descends to repeatedly buying fragile off-brand junk despite
repeatedly suffering failures of that junk, I think it should be treated
as a psychological problem.


--
- Frank Krygowski

I can see wanting light stuff or even new stuff. What I can't understand is buying stuff that you know might be suspect as to quality and/or integrity. A carbon fiber bar failing during an out of the saddle sprint or riding at high speed on a descent (or even flt road) can have rather catastrophic consequences for the bicyclist. They could get that rundown feeling that even Geritol won't relieve.

Tom is convinced that Chinese knock-offs are as good as the real
thing -- it's all from the same factory; its the same product, but its
just going out the back door instead of the front. That is a wrong
assumption.

Unfortunately, I think we're going to start seeing problems with
the real, non-knock off products in the next year or so as US
brand-owners shift production to Vietnam, Myanmar and elsewhere. I
suspect those manufacturers will have manufacturing and raw
material/input issues. It's already happening with soft-goods. I'd
stick with major brands with domestic distributors so if something
does go wrong, there is someone to fix or replace it.

-- Jay Beattie.

Years ago the Japanese established plants in other countries. I
remember a "Bearing Factory" that I used to pass. In talking to some
of the Thais that worked there they shipped bearing parts from Japan
as Thailand and Japan had trading agreements, assembled them in
Thailand and marked them "Made in Thailand" and shipped them to the
U.S. Now the Chinese are doing the same :-)

There is another point. Minimum salary may now be less in the SEA
countries as China's industrialization is increasing costs there.

snip

That is true. The two captains of industry with whom I ride (today as a matter of fact) were saying just that: the shift was inevitable as China developed a middle class and became more expensive. We were also talking about illegal laundering of Chinese products (transshipping) through third-countries, and legal laundering by adding value to Chinese inputs. According to US law, the product must be "substantially transformed" and just bolting things together or slapping on a label on it in a third country doesn't cut it. It's still a Chinese product.

They were also talking about 40% tariffs on Chinese products and the price leaps consumers will soon see. The companies were absorbing a lot of the tariff costs, but not any more. Tom's cheap Chinese bars are going up. I think Walmart's giant screen TV deals are a thing of the past.

-- Jay Beattie.

One of the causes of the great depression of the 1930's was the
Smoot-Hawley Tariff which imposed near-record tax rates on a wide
range of imported goods, which resulted, of course, in American
trading partners retaliated by imposing tariffs on U.S.-made goods.
As a result, world trade fell by two-thirds between 1929 and 1934.

One wonders, will history repeat itself?
--
cheers,

John B.