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  #31  
Old November 5th 19, 01:18 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Carbon Bars

On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 16:18:15 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 2:33:04 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 11:55:51 AM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 11:20:08 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, November 3, 2019 at 7:17:37 AM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 2:57:39 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 12:45:30 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 9:42:01 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, November 1, 2019 at 10:18:50 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 5:35:23 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 2:16:37 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
I have a carbon bar on the Lemond. Initially I had an aluminum stem with those super narrow front pieces that I was using with the carbon bar. That was not a good idea.

I hit a good bump and the bar rotated.

So I got an Easton carbon stem with a wider contact surface and next time I hit a good bump the damn thing rotated again. I nearly lost control when this happened but luckily I was able to retain enough control to bring it to a stop.

Then I bought yet another Chinese stem that had a full frontal contact plate. The other day on a fast descent I again hit a large bump in a turn and again nearly lost it.

I remembered Andrew and Jay talking about "carbon paste" so I went and got some and applied it as the shop recommended. This seemed to make a difference until this morning: I was almost at my coffee stop and had been pushing it so was fairly exhausted and I had a string of cars behind me on a narrow section of road. I attempted to cut to the inside of a turn to allow these cars to race by since they had to get to the stop sign a block away in a hurry. On the inside of the turn was one of those really rough spots that is hidden in bad asphalt and as I hit it my bars rotated yet again. I kept control of the bike but just by the skin of my teeth.

Back to Aluminum bars for me. And I suggest that none of you use carbon bars. At the coffee stop the owner has a set of tools for the bikes since he gets a lot of groups in there. (This morning was pretty cold and my groves turned out to be too tight so my left hand had lost feeling and I couldn't shift - he asked me if I needed a hug (no he isn't))

In any case, after I loosened, rotated back into position and then tightened the bar I pushed on it and was quite surprised to see the bar flex.

Now they do make carbon bar/stem one piece combination that would be OK but no more two piece carbon setups for me. I guess this is why the pro's use the one piece bar/stem.

What carbon bars do you have? Do they have a slick center-section? Are they undersized? I've had carbon bars on one bike or another for fifteen years with no problems. Slippage is not an inherent quality of carbon bars.

-- Jay Beattie.

I think that the real problem is that they are built to minimum weight more than anything else. I think I wouldn't have any problem with a bar built to these standards if it had a molded in stem. For awhile you could get those pretty cheap but now you're looking at $200 a pop.

If you get nervous about 200 dollar for a one piece CF handlebar-stem combo I wonder what CF handlebar you use now. A CF handlebar alone from a respectable manufacturer already cost over 200 euro on this side of the pond:

https://www.bike-components.de/en/co...aterial=carbon


Pfff. https://tinyurl.com/y6j72h4u Get four! I defended ControlTech a million years ago when some guy sued after his MTB bars broke. The bars were some Chinese aluminum crap with ControlTech bar-ends made in Washington. The bar-ends didn't break, but ControlTech got sued anyway. My handlebar expert in that case was a great guy from Easton who designed and built bars in LA. I learned that there is a lot more to making a good handlebar than one might think. If you go cheap light weight Chinese carbon or aluminum, you're asking for at least some trouble. I suspect TK got the Alibaba sale table bars.

-- Jay Beattie.

https://tinyurl.com/y4agbgxs

Testing shows that when carbon bars break it is almost always at the stem So this keeps the bar in one piece and manageable unless you hit so hard you break both sides off.

Testing shows that buying Chinese crap is generally a bad idea. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QBRjp9-uJg&t=59s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJT7pHOGzMo&t=372s


You're a super-wealthy investor, so get a decent pair of bars and not some Chinese crap from a company that rips-off Easton's product names. I wouldn't buy those bars just because of the shady IP practice. Or don't you care about buying American?

-- Jay Beattie.

That would be dandy if most of the carbon components weren't made in China and sold for 10 times as much here with a brand name on them. Did you miss the Easton trade mark on those bars?

Ah, yes I did --because it's not there. Those are Chinese knock-offs with no Easton branding, although they did swipe Easton's product name (EC90). Even though there is a f****** American flag in the ad, its a Chinese knock-off. https://www.aliexpress.com/w/wholesa...handlebar.html You can buy a whole box of them from Alibaba. I though you loved Trump and MAGA and wanted to beat back the IP-stealing Chinese invading hoard. No? More interested in buying cheap **** than supporting your claimed values?

This is the Easton product. https://eastoncycling.com/collection...andlebars+ec90

Another I have is a Bontrager. The deep section carbon wheels have been tested up to 10,000 miles with the braking surface finally wearing out. That is what a New Mavic aluminum wheel is good for.

My Colnago which is a nearly perfect bike was made in Taiwan which you might remember is free China.

Are you trying to be stupid? Made by COLNAGO at a Taiwanese factory. It's branded, subject to Colnago's QC, undoubtedly supervised by Colnago's people and sold by Colnago -- with their ****ty warranty, but at least they have one. And mainland has some of the best CF QC in the world -- unlike some bizarre knock-offs from China.

Maybe next time you should get a Chinarello or a Chinago. https://www.bikebiz.com/when-is-a-pi...-a-chinarello/ Again, do you support IP theft? Do you NOT want to make America great again? Are you a communist sympathizer?

-- Jay Beattie.


EC90 is a type of carbon fiber. That is just another in a line of bars that were made in China for Easton. Because of the way that carbon bars fail - suddenly - Easton doesn't make these available much anymore sticking with Aluminum.

The Bontrager isn't a knockoff - it is the real thing.

I would be interested in knowing how you believe that Colnago could have ANY effective quality control. And it was a Colnago plainly marked with a "Made In Taiwan" label under the bottom bracket. They are more reliable than the actual carbon made in Italy C- series up to the present day C-62. This isn't to say that they are unreliable, just that they have a higher failure rate of the Italian models which are made strictly for light weight.


EC=Easton Carbon
EA=Easton Aluminum Go look at their products. The "90" line is used for both materials, e.g. EA 90 wheels https://eastoncycling.com/products/e...29642172366957
EC 90 wheels: https://eastoncycling.com/products/ec90-sl-wheels

EC90 is not "a type of carbon fiber." It is a product designation used by Easton and ripped off by your China buddies and fellow travelers working with you to make America ungreat again.

BTW, read this: https://www.smartchinasourcing.com/c...s-back-basics/ That's basically how you do QC in China. In Taiwan, factory QC is far less sketchy based on what I have been told.


Presently I can't see any point in that since the UCI weight limit is 14.5 lbs or around there somewhere. But when I wrote the UCI I got back a nasty letter saying that they would set any weight limit they decided and that it was none of by business.


I'm outraged! The UCI not deferring to you? Mon dieu!


-- Jay Beattie.


Quite a number of companies built quality equipment in China, or all
over Asia for that matter. Cummins Diesel, for example, has been
making diesel engines in China for 20 years, or so. With no problems
what so ever. The secret? Put your supervisors and inspectors on the
floor and empower them to make decisions.

I was in the CAT Jakarta factory where they built earth moving
equipment, mainly for the Indonesian market. The same guarantee as any
other CAT equipment world wide. But noticeably many "Round Eyes" in
management positions.

Or. alternately, set up a really, really, good inspection station and
inspect every single unit that the Chinese (or other) plant produces.

And some do that. A distant relative of my wife had a "sewing"
business - give them a pattern and spec for the cloth and they's sew
you a million pieces. Anyway, we visited one day and found a customer
inspecting, one by one, a whole pile of denim pants. I'd guess a
thousand pairs, or maybe more.

And, nobody got excited about it. The usual Asian attitude is "it's
your money you should check to be sure it is what you want".

--
cheers,

John B.

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  #32  
Old November 5th 19, 03:31 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Carbon Bars

On 11/4/2019 7:18 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 2:33:04 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:

Presently I can't see any point in that since the UCI weight limit is 14.5 lbs or around there somewhere. But when I wrote the UCI I got back a nasty letter saying that they would set any weight limit they decided and that it was none of by business.


I'm outraged! The UCI not deferring to you? Mon dieu!


The UCI responded to a hothead in California? I believe that just as
much as I believe Tom was being recruited by a hush-hush new NASA
department.

I note that Tom still has enough time on his hands to post dozens of
rants per day. The NASA folks must have changed their mind. Perhaps they
heard from some friends at UCI?

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #33  
Old November 5th 19, 03:33 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Carbon Bars

On 11/4/2019 2:25 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, November 3, 2019 at 1:02:28 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/3/2019 2:30 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 3 November 2019 10:17:37 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 2:57:39 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 12:45:30 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 9:42:01 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, November 1, 2019 at 10:18:50 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 5:35:23 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 2:16:37 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
I have a carbon bar on the Lemond. Initially I had an aluminum stem with those super narrow front pieces that I was using with the carbon bar. That was not a good idea.

I hit a good bump and the bar rotated.

So I got an Easton carbon stem with a wider contact surface and next time I hit a good bump the damn thing rotated again. I nearly lost control when this happened but luckily I was able to retain enough control to bring it to a stop.

Then I bought yet another Chinese stem that had a full frontal contact plate. The other day on a fast descent I again hit a large bump in a turn and again nearly lost it.

I remembered Andrew and Jay talking about "carbon paste" so I went and got some and applied it as the shop recommended. This seemed to make a difference until this morning: I was almost at my coffee stop and had been pushing it so was fairly exhausted and I had a string of cars behind me on a narrow section of road. I attempted to cut to the inside of a turn to allow these cars to race by since they had to get to the stop sign a block away in a hurry. On the inside of the turn was one of those really rough spots that is hidden in bad asphalt and as I hit it my bars rotated yet again. I kept control of the bike but just by the skin of my teeth.

Back to Aluminum bars for me. And I suggest that none of you use carbon bars. At the coffee stop the owner has a set of tools for the bikes since he gets a lot of groups in there. (This morning was pretty cold and my groves turned out to be too tight so my left hand had lost feeling and I couldn't shift - he asked me if I needed a hug (no he isn't))

In any case, after I loosened, rotated back into position and then tightened the bar I pushed on it and was quite surprised to see the bar flex.

Now they do make carbon bar/stem one piece combination that would be OK but no more two piece carbon setups for me. I guess this is why the pro's use the one piece bar/stem.

What carbon bars do you have? Do they have a slick center-section? Are they undersized? I've had carbon bars on one bike or another for fifteen years with no problems. Slippage is not an inherent quality of carbon bars.

-- Jay Beattie.

I think that the real problem is that they are built to minimum weight more than anything else. I think I wouldn't have any problem with a bar built to these standards if it had a molded in stem. For awhile you could get those pretty cheap but now you're looking at $200 a pop.

If you get nervous about 200 dollar for a one piece CF handlebar-stem combo I wonder what CF handlebar you use now. A CF handlebar alone from a respectable manufacturer already cost over 200 euro on this side of the pond:

https://www.bike-components.de/en/co...aterial=carbon


Pfff. https://tinyurl.com/y6j72h4u Get four! I defended ControlTech a million years ago when some guy sued after his MTB bars broke. The bars were some Chinese aluminum crap with ControlTech bar-ends made in Washington. The bar-ends didn't break, but ControlTech got sued anyway. My handlebar expert in that case was a great guy from Easton who designed and built bars in LA. I learned that there is a lot more to making a good handlebar than one might think. If you go cheap light weight Chinese carbon or aluminum, you're asking for at least some trouble. I suspect TK got the Alibaba sale table bars.

-- Jay Beattie.

https://tinyurl.com/y4agbgxs

Testing shows that when carbon bars break it is almost always at the stem So this keeps the bar in one piece and manageable unless you hit so hard you break both sides off.

Testing shows that buying Chinese crap is generally a bad idea. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QBRjp9-uJg&t=59s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJT7pHOGzMo&t=372s


You're a super-wealthy investor, so get a decent pair of bars and not some Chinese crap from a company that rips-off Easton's product names. I wouldn't buy those bars just because of the shady IP practice. Or don't you care about buying American?

-- Jay Beattie.

I don't know why anyone with previous problems with Chinese made carbon stop would continue to buy off-brand Chinese crap. Buying off-brand stuff made in China is a real crap shoot and your well-being is put at risk every time you use it. You simply don't know what you're getting with Chinese off-brand bicycle stuff.


And I don't know why someone in Tom's situation would be trying to shave
grams from his bike at all. What's the benefit? To beat some other 75
year old to the top of a hill? To win an imaginary Masters' race? Or
just to brag about bike weight in some coffee shop?

Yes, I know some people are into having the most cutting edge bike
equipment, just as some are into having the most luxurious house, the
coolest car, the awesomest home theater system. I'm not saying it should
be forbidden; but when it goes too far, I think it should be recognized
as a weakness.

And when it descends to repeatedly buying fragile off-brand junk despite
repeatedly suffering failures of that junk, I think it should be treated
as a psychological problem.


On a really good day for you, you are merely ludicrous. Where in my postings did I say that I was trying to "shave weight"?


OK, why are you buying fragile carbon fiber components, if not to save
weight?

Is it because it's fashionable, and you want to brag about your carbon
fiber once you finally make it to the Halfway Cafe?


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #34  
Old November 5th 19, 07:09 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default Carbon Bars

On Monday, 4 November 2019 22:33:35 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Snipped

Is it because it's fashionable, and you want to brag about your carbon
fiber once you finally make it to the Halfway Cafe?


--
- Frank Krygowski


Hey, there used to be a cafe called The Half Way Cafe on a road I frequently ride on. That cafe has since passed to new ownership and a new name.

Cheers
 




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