"Thanks for Lights"

On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 18:19:03 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/6/2019 6:08 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 15:02:24 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/6/2019 12:49 PM, sms wrote:
On 11/5/2019 2:31 PM, John B. wrote:

snip

Years ago I read an article describing what the author envisioned as
the acceptable electric car. About the size of a VW Bug and with a
range of 75 miles. Than he calculated the effects of everyone driving
home from work and plugging in the car. Los Angeles, where he lived,
would have to double the electric generating capability to handle the
surge in requirements.

On my street there are a lot of electric cars and plug-in hybrids. And
every house with one of those vehicles also has solar panels on the roof
generating far more electricity, even in the winter, to feed onto the
grid to charge an electric car. In the winter the panels don't meet the
entire need of the house, in the summer they exceed the entire need.

So things have changed since you read that article years ago.

Of course in high-density housing you can't have enough solar panels for
the building to be self-sustaining, and surprisingly high-density
housing uses more electricity and gas, on a per occupant basis, than a
single family home. In a single family home you can have solar
electricity, solar hot water heating, solar clothes dryers
(clotheslines), and you don't have common spaces or elevators.

Scharf won't respond to this, but: I'm very curious about the claim that
single family homes use less gas and electricity than high-density
housing. Others disagree with that statement. See
https://michaelsenergy.com/briefs/mu...es-energy-use/
and
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=11731

It's true that single family homes _can_ have solar electricity, solar
water heating and clotheslines; but only a tiny percentage do. Even in
Florida (where we just vacationed) home solar units were extremely rare.
And I didn't see a clothesline the entire trip.

Well, I mean, really!
Would you have all those people carry those wet clothes all the way
out to the clothesline and hang them up? And than have to go back and
pick them off the line and carry them all the way back into the house?
Why, with all that tooing and froing they would miss Oprah.

And on top of that, just think of the neighbors. How would they feel
when they discover that their neighbors can't even afford a cloths
dryer? And there goes the neighborhood. What will be next? School
buses?

It is sad. I have relatives that live in a community that has forbidden
clothes lines.

OTOH, riding through Amish territory (maybe 40 miles from my home) there
are lots of clothes lines visible. I think it looks picturesque.

My wife disagrees. The result is, when I happen to empty the clothes
washer, the clothes go on the lines. When she empties the washer, they
go into the clothes dryer.

My wife and my mother both (although they never met each other) argue
that drying clothes in the sun tends to sterilize the cloths and "make
them smell better", although I don't know if that is one effect or
two. Of course, when I was small there were no home cloths dryers and
you hung your laundry even in freezing weather.

And I know at least one family that is proudly anti-fracking, but uses a
gas clothes dryer instead of a clothes line. Go figure!

The whole fracking thing seems to be a different thing in different
places. I see that the U.K. has just banned fracking but I gather that
it is freely used in the U.S. But, from what I read, if you want more
oil and gas than you have to accept fracking.

Fracking is a rather complex subject. It has been used, although not a
present pressures, for years in "tight" formations with , apparently,
no problems, or at lest I never heard of any problems. Now, in order
to economically produce shale oil/gas I gather that much, much,
greater pressures are used and the fracturing extends over a much
greater area and apparently there are resulting earthquakes.

In addition there is the use fracturing fluid to be disposed of and I
read one article that claimed that some of the disposal wells are
producing earthquakes also :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 15:50:39 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 11/6/2019 3:08 PM, John B. wrote:

snip

Well, I mean, really!
Would you have all those people carry those wet clothes all the way
out to the clothesline and hang them up? And than have to go back and
pick them off the line and carry them all the way back into the house?
Why, with all that tooing and froing they would miss Oprah.

And on top of that, just think of the neighbors. How would they feel
when they discover that their neighbors can't even afford a cloths
dryer? And there goes the neighborhood. What will be next? School
buses?

I find a clothesline more time efficient. We hang the shirts and pants
on plastic hangers and let them dry on the hangers. We sort the socks as
we hang them on the clothesline. While I don't watch Oprah, the to and
from the clothesline, rather than from the utility room, is not much
difference in distance.

Of course if I lived in a high-rise apartment building our energy
efficiency and sustainability would go down. We couldn't use solar to
charge the plug-in hybrid. We'd have to use clothes dryer all the time
instead of just in bad weather. We couldn't have all those plants and
trees that are taking in CO2 and emitting oxygen. We'd have to use
elevators to reach our unit. The common areas would have to be lit,
heated, and cooled. Heating costs might be a little less. A good article
about this can be found at
https://www.citylab.com/design/2017/12/when-density-isnt-greener/548384/.

How people in high rise apartments, in those exotic, far away,
countries dry their clothes using solar "power".
http://singaporeactually.com/2011/03...y-our-clothes/
Far, far, cheaper than solar panels.


But we live in a "close-in" suburban community where we can get to many
places by bicycle or walking. It's different when you live in a suburb
that's far from civilization.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 06 Nov 2019 20:50:34 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 15:02:24 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/6/2019 12:49 PM, sms wrote:
On 11/5/2019 2:31 PM, John B. wrote:

snip

Years ago I read an article describing what the author envisioned as
the acceptable electric car. About the size of a VW Bug and with a
range of 75 miles. Than he calculated the effects of everyone driving
home from work and plugging in the car. Los Angeles, where he lived,
would have to double the electric generating capability to handle the
surge in requirements.

On my street there are a lot of electric cars and plug-in hybrids. And
every house with one of those vehicles also has solar panels on the roof
generating far more electricity, even in the winter, to feed onto the
grid to charge an electric car. In the winter the panels don't meet the
entire need of the house, in the summer they exceed the entire need.

So things have changed since you read that article years ago.

Of course in high-density housing you can't have enough solar panels for
the building to be self-sustaining, and surprisingly high-density
housing uses more electricity and gas, on a per occupant basis, than a
single family home. In a single family home you can have solar
electricity, solar hot water heating, solar clothes dryers
(clotheslines), and you don't have common spaces or elevators.

Scharf won't respond to this, but: I'm very curious about the claim that
single family homes use less gas and electricity than high-density
housing. Others disagree with that statement. See
https://michaelsenergy.com/briefs/mu...es-energy-use/
and
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=11731

It's true that single family homes _can_ have solar electricity, solar
water heating and clotheslines; but only a tiny percentage do. Even in
Florida (where we just vacationed) home solar units were extremely rare.
And I didn't see a clothesline the entire trip.

Well, I mean, really!
Would you have all those people carry those wet clothes all the way
out to the clothesline and hang them up? And than have to go back and
pick them off the line and carry them all the way back into the house?
Why, with all that tooing and froing they would miss Oprah.

And on top of that, just think of the neighbors. How would they feel
when they discover that their neighbors can't even afford a cloths
dryer? And there goes the neighborhood. What will be next? School
buses?

I suppose you're joking, but there are certainly home owners
associations that forbid clotheslines. One of the many reasons I
wouldn't want to buy a house encumbered with one (HOA).

Well yes, although I thought I was being cynical :-)
Yes, I understand that there are HOA's that ban clotheslines.
Thankfully I live in a country that doesn't have such a strange
association.
--
cheers,

John B.

On 11/6/2019 10:44 PM, John B. wrote:

Fracking is a rather complex subject. It has been used, although not a
present pressures, for years in "tight" formations with , apparently,
no problems, or at lest I never heard of any problems. Now, in order
to economically produce shale oil/gas I gather that much, much,
greater pressures are used and the fracturing extends over a much
greater area and apparently there are resulting earthquakes.

In addition there is the use fracturing fluid to be disposed of and I
read one article that claimed that some of the disposal wells are
producing earthquakes also :-)

We had one local earthquake that was caused by a deep well injection
site. Apparently it hit a fault that was not known. It was only the
second or third earthquake in this area since 1980, and quite a
surprise. But the total damage reported was three bricks that fell off
one old chimney, and supposedly a small crack in the wall of an old house.

After that, the Ohio EPA mandated lots of earthquake monitors around
injection well sites. I think they detected a few more, but below 2.0
Richter, which means they are generally not felt by humans. If a tree
falls in the forest...

Locally, a rabid anti-fracking group raised signatures eight times to
put an anti-fracking measure on the local city ballot - a city where
there never was and never would be fracking. But the measure would have
outlawed ANY business connected to fracking, meaning probably shutting
down the remaining steel pipe mill, a big source of jobs and tax funds.
Their measure was voted down every time, but it took eight tries (and
the death of one of the ringleaders) to get them to stop.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thu, 7 Nov 2019 13:40:06 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/6/2019 10:44 PM, John B. wrote:

Fracking is a rather complex subject. It has been used, although not a
present pressures, for years in "tight" formations with , apparently,
no problems, or at lest I never heard of any problems. Now, in order
to economically produce shale oil/gas I gather that much, much,
greater pressures are used and the fracturing extends over a much
greater area and apparently there are resulting earthquakes.

In addition there is the use fracturing fluid to be disposed of and I
read one article that claimed that some of the disposal wells are
producing earthquakes also :-)

We had one local earthquake that was caused by a deep well injection
site. Apparently it hit a fault that was not known. It was only the
second or third earthquake in this area since 1980, and quite a
surprise. But the total damage reported was three bricks that fell off
one old chimney, and supposedly a small crack in the wall of an old house.

After that, the Ohio EPA mandated lots of earthquake monitors around
injection well sites. I think they detected a few more, but below 2.0
Richter, which means they are generally not felt by humans. If a tree
falls in the forest...

Locally, a rabid anti-fracking group raised signatures eight times to
put an anti-fracking measure on the local city ballot - a city where
there never was and never would be fracking. But the measure would have
outlawed ANY business connected to fracking, meaning probably shutting
down the remaining steel pipe mill, a big source of jobs and tax funds.
Their measure was voted down every time, but it took eight tries (and
the death of one of the ringleaders) to get them to stop.

The oil companies, like almost any other venture, work on a economic
basis and fracking allows the company to produce more oil/gas for a
lower cost. So stopping fracking will (1) result in higher costs of
production and (2) lower production, which will in turn result in
increased imports and higher costs of hydro-carbons. Four or five
dollar gasoline?

Of course, the U.S. could reduce their consumption of hydro-carbons
but that probably not a politically or practically possible - "we
need two cars" - and if you live 20 miles from your work place than
you likely do.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 9:49:44 AM UTC-8, sms wrote:
On 11/5/2019 2:31 PM, John B. wrote:

snip

Years ago I read an article describing what the author envisioned as
the acceptable electric car. About the size of a VW Bug and with a
range of 75 miles. Than he calculated the effects of everyone driving
home from work and plugging in the car. Los Angeles, where he lived,
would have to double the electric generating capability to handle the
surge in requirements.

On my street there are a lot of electric cars and plug-in hybrids. And
every house with one of those vehicles also has solar panels on the roof
generating far more electricity, even in the winter, to feed onto the
grid to charge an electric car. In the winter the panels don't meet the
entire need of the house, in the summer they exceed the entire need.

So things have changed since you read that article years ago.

Of course in high-density housing you can't have enough solar panels for
the building to be self-sustaining, and surprisingly high-density
housing uses more electricity and gas, on a per occupant basis, than a
single family home. In a single family home you can have solar
electricity, solar hot water heating, solar clothes dryers
(clotheslines), and you don't have common spaces or elevators.

My electric bill is pretty stable all year around - slightly higher in the winter when the days are shorter. But it would require 83 years for a single solar panel to pay itself off compared to my electric bill.

On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 3:50:48 PM UTC-8, sms wrote:
On 11/6/2019 3:08 PM, John B. wrote:

snip

Well, I mean, really!
Would you have all those people carry those wet clothes all the way
out to the clothesline and hang them up? And than have to go back and
pick them off the line and carry them all the way back into the house?
Why, with all that tooing and froing they would miss Oprah.

And on top of that, just think of the neighbors. How would they feel
when they discover that their neighbors can't even afford a cloths
dryer? And there goes the neighborhood. What will be next? School
buses?

I find a clothesline more time efficient. We hang the shirts and pants
on plastic hangers and let them dry on the hangers. We sort the socks as
we hang them on the clothesline. While I don't watch Oprah, the to and
from the clothesline, rather than from the utility room, is not much
difference in distance.

Of course if I lived in a high-rise apartment building our energy
efficiency and sustainability would go down. We couldn't use solar to
charge the plug-in hybrid. We'd have to use clothes dryer all the time
instead of just in bad weather. We couldn't have all those plants and
trees that are taking in CO2 and emitting oxygen. We'd have to use
elevators to reach our unit. The common areas would have to be lit,
heated, and cooled. Heating costs might be a little less. A good article
about this can be found at
https://www.citylab.com/design/2017/12/when-density-isnt-greener/548384/.

But we live in a "close-in" suburban community where we can get to many
places by bicycle or walking. It's different when you live in a suburb
that's far from civilization.

I don't particularly have anything against electric cars but as the upper middle class people are leaving California they are leaving their electric cars behind and you are even seeing those Tesla sports cars on used car lots.

So it would appear to me that electric cars are more of a status symbol than anything else and in other places of the country they are more the mark of a nutcake.