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Best brakes?



 
 
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  #21  
Old December 4th 19, 01:48 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Posts: 9,477
Default Best brakes?

On 12/3/2019 4:16 PM, James wrote:

snip

Well, well.Â* Who'd have thought that!


Well Grant Petersen has something to say about brakes...
https://rivbike.tumblr.com/post/144237651719/rim-disc-brakes-1149-words-estimated-reading

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  #22  
Old December 4th 19, 01:49 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
Default Best brakes?

On 12/3/2019 6:09 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Monday, December 2, 2019 at 2:52:43 PM UTC, Dieter Britz wrote:
My son has put together a very fancy bike and (of course)
put in disk brakes. But he is disappointed by them. We are
not sure why they don't brake very well. I feel that good
caliper brakes are the best.

Is that true? Or should disk brakes be equally good?

--
Dieter Britz


In every braking instance, whatever the brakes, the limit of braking is determined by the maximum friction between the tarmac of the road and the rubber of the tyre.

So, in theory, all brakes currently in use should brake equally well, since all are capable of exerting more than the force required at the limit of available tarmac/rubber friction. Vintage brakes like spoon brakes and even older roller brakes didn't in fact have enough clamping force though today's roller brakes will send you over the handlebars just like discs if you're careless.

I fancy Magura's hydraulic rim brakes for their progressivity. I also have bikes with roller brakes and disc brakes, and of course in the mists of history had bikes with standard rim brakes. All stop the bike but the manner of their stopping it differs greatly.

Progressive brakes have another advantage besides not face-planting the rider for very slip in concentration: they actually brake better because they are locked for less of the distance that the brakes are applied in every stop.

BTW, the standard Magura blocks on my bike with the rim hydraulics lasted over 5000m, and the rim looks good. I've never had disc brakes that didn't wear through their pads in 1000m.

Andre Jute
Jeremy Bentham, the founder of Utilitarianism, would roll over in his grave at the prices of bikes today


No, he would not.

Diversity is a desirable quality of any market.
(Manufacturers stop making whatever doesn't sell profitably,
in short order!) A healthy market with constant innovation
and/or improvement is NOT the G.U.M Store.

Meanwhile your basic go-to-work lightweight from 1971 at
$95[1] is equivalent in cost to $603.65 today[2] but for
half that, $299, you get a clearly superior, lighter, longer
lasting machine[3]. Any LBS bike at $600[4] in 2019 wipes
the floor with the best professional machines of that era
(which were $300 to $400 then, mostly)

[1] Basic 'ten speeder'; British 3-speeds were $30 to $40 then
[2] https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/
[3] Not a Famous Name Italian race bike but improved in
every way from a Gitane Gran Sport and so on.
[4] Better service and prep than 50 years ago generally.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #23  
Old December 4th 19, 05:05 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Best brakes?

On Tuesday, December 3, 2019 at 4:48:33 PM UTC-8, sms wrote:
On 12/3/2019 4:16 PM, James wrote:

snip

Well, well.Â* Who'd have thought that!


Well Grant Petersen has something to say about brakes...
https://rivbike.tumblr.com/post/144237651719/rim-disc-brakes-1149-words-estimated-reading


Of course he does, and when I'm spec'ing equipment for my new, twin top-tube Homer Hillbilly, I'll keep that in mind. https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/14...g?v=1550274313 I really wanted that bike - - - 50 years ago!

I should get one just so I have a place for all my old Cinelli quill stems. Whip out the old creaking and slipping R1 and pop that sucker in there.

BTW, for less than the cost of a Hillbilly frame, I got my gravel bike: https://www.norco.com/bike-archives/2017/search-c-105/ On sale at Western Bikeworks for $1,500. Great deal on a fun bike.

-- Jay Beattie.


  #24  
Old December 4th 19, 06:02 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Posts: 7,511
Default Best brakes?

On Tuesday, December 3, 2019 at 11:05:53 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, December 3, 2019 at 4:48:33 PM UTC-8, sms wrote:
On 12/3/2019 4:16 PM, James wrote:

snip

Well, well.Â* Who'd have thought that!


Well Grant Petersen has something to say about brakes...
https://rivbike.tumblr.com/post/144237651719/rim-disc-brakes-1149-words-estimated-reading


Of course he does, and when I'm spec'ing equipment for my new, twin top-tube Homer Hillbilly, I'll keep that in mind. https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/14...g?v=1550274313 I really wanted that bike - - - 50 years ago!

I should get one just so I have a place for all my old Cinelli quill stems. Whip out the old creaking and slipping R1 and pop that sucker in there.

BTW, for less than the cost of a Hillbilly frame, I got my gravel bike: https://www.norco.com/bike-archives/2017/search-c-105/ On sale at Western Bikeworks for $1,500. Great deal on a fun bike.


For the record, I can't imagine buying that Rivendell. And I wouldn't pay Rivendell's high prices for middle-quality components.

But IMO, Grant Peterson does have some good ideas about bicycling in general.

- Frank Krygowski
  #25  
Old December 4th 19, 04:16 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 10,422
Default Best brakes?

On Wednesday, December 4, 2019 at 12:49:42 AM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/3/2019 6:09 PM, Andre Jute wrote:

Andre Jute
Jeremy Bentham, the founder of Utilitarianism, would roll over in his grave at the prices of bikes today


No, he would not.


I've answered this and the rest of Andrew's comments in a new thread so as not to hog Dieter's thread about brakes. See https://groups.google.com/forum/#!to...ch/uDdmmCbZK-A

AJ
  #26  
Old December 4th 19, 05:57 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 1,231
Default Best brakes?

On Tuesday, December 3, 2019 at 4:17:04 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On 4/12/19 9:54 am, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, December 3, 2019 at 12:39:46 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On 4/12/19 2:15 am, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, December 2, 2019 at 10:12:35 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On 3/12/19 6:32 am, Tom Kunich wrote:


You pretty obviously ride in fairly flat country. While I am
not overly fond of disk brakes because it is so easy to
over-apply them, they are very much stronger than normal rim
brakes on carbon rims. I have to apply the rim brakes with
almost my entire strength to get the bike to slow to a stop
at the stop signs at the bottom of many steep descents around
here. That is - with my entire strength I cannot lock the
wheels whereas with the disks I have to be careful not to
lock the brakes. I interpret that as being better braking.


Your rim brakes are the problem. Mine are fine. I can easily
have the back wheel floating when I brake hard and shift my
body weigh backward too.

Oh, you have _carbon_ rims. That's where your problem is.
Aluminium rims generally work much better. It seems you and
carbon are incompatible.


It would appear that you and carbon rims are incompatible.

What makes you say that? I have never even used carbon rims. Mine
are all aluminium, and I don't have a problem stopping with rim
brakes (or disc brakes). You said above that you have to apply rim
brakes with almost all your entire strength just to slow to a stop,
using carbon rims. Given your other difficulties with carbon
components, it seems you and carbon are incompatible.

I find it extremely difficult to lock aluminum wheels as well
unless I'm using that extremely soft brake pad material that
wears the aluminum rim braking surface out in short order.

I use standard Campagnolo brakes and pads on regular aluminium
rims, and I don't have a problem.


I have to say that I think that you people do not ride very many
miles a year. Or commute over the same ground so that you always
know where you're going to stop so you always slow up so as not
to put wear on your wheels.

I ride about 10,000 km annually. I live next to a hill that has
sections of 10% and an average grade of 7% for 2 km. I ride over
that hill in both directions for every ride. The corners are sharp
and the road is narrow. There are sometimes obstructions - like
wildlife and farm animals that I have to brake hard at times to
avoid.

Countless times I've cycled on roads with gradients up to 20%,
again with corners you have to brake hard for.

I have to say I think you make up scenarios to suit your notions.


It is almost continuous bickering with absolutely no basis in
fact. Lifting your rear wheel? Just try to do that descending a
16% grade. In San Francisco the carriers ride through stop lights
on hills like that because rim brakes are so powerful.


Absolutely I had the rear wheel floating on approach to a couple
of corners descending Mt Glorious near Brisbane, where the gradient
is close to 20% - and I had pushed myself back over the saddle.

-- JS


James - if you don't know about carbon rims please don't make
comments about them. There are a couple of youTube videos of a Brit
who bought those super-cheap Chinese aero carbon rims like me and got
over 13,000 km on the wheels without the braking surface wearing out.
And they are (were?) $250 with free shipping.


Tom - you wrote above that you also have trouble braking with aluminium
rims. I don't. I raced with countless fellow using carbon rims with
rim brakes, and they seemed to be able to stop well enough too.

Now you're changing the subject, which seems to be a standard approach
to wriggling out, to something about rim wear.


With disk brakes the rims last forever.


Well, well. Who'd have thought that!

--
JS



Changing the subject? Maybe you should learn a little English.
  #27  
Old December 4th 19, 06:17 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 1,231
Default Best brakes?

On Tuesday, December 3, 2019 at 9:02:50 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, December 3, 2019 at 11:05:53 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, December 3, 2019 at 4:48:33 PM UTC-8, sms wrote:
On 12/3/2019 4:16 PM, James wrote:

snip

Well, well.Â* Who'd have thought that!

Well Grant Petersen has something to say about brakes...
https://rivbike.tumblr.com/post/144237651719/rim-disc-brakes-1149-words-estimated-reading


Of course he does, and when I'm spec'ing equipment for my new, twin top-tube Homer Hillbilly, I'll keep that in mind. https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/14...g?v=1550274313 I really wanted that bike - - - 50 years ago!

I should get one just so I have a place for all my old Cinelli quill stems. Whip out the old creaking and slipping R1 and pop that sucker in there..

BTW, for less than the cost of a Hillbilly frame, I got my gravel bike: https://www.norco.com/bike-archives/2017/search-c-105/ On sale at Western Bikeworks for $1,500. Great deal on a fun bike.


For the record, I can't imagine buying that Rivendell. And I wouldn't pay Rivendell's high prices for middle-quality components.

But IMO, Grant Peterson does have some good ideas about bicycling in general.

- Frank Krygowski


I never quite understood why he became sort of a folk hero simply by making touring bikes.

As for disk brakes I've said many times that I don't particularly like them but I also know that aluminum rims wear out pretty quickly if you use the high friction brake material. And if you use "stock" brakes you have to squeeze until your eyes bulge out like Adam Schiff's.
  #28  
Old December 5th 19, 06:32 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
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Posts: 6,153
Default Best brakes?

On 5/12/19 3:57 am, Tom Kunich wrote:


Changing the subject? Maybe you should learn a little English.


Nice try Tom. Both my parents are from England. More than a little
English is bestowed upon me.

--
JS
  #29  
Old December 5th 19, 08:09 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Roger Merriman[_4_]
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Posts: 385
Default Best brakes?

sms wrote:
On 12/3/2019 4:16 PM, James wrote:

snip

Well, well.Â* Who'd have thought that!


Well Grant Petersen has something to say about brakes...
https://rivbike.tumblr.com/post/144237651719/rim-disc-brakes-1149-words-estimated-reading


Meh Opinion piece, with added fag paper Physics noting the date 2016 is
when discs starting to get traction on road bikes, where a number of such
articles, generally claiming the sky is falling, funnily enough in the real
world the sky hasn’t fallen.

Roger Merriman

  #30  
Old December 5th 19, 08:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Best brakes?

On 12/5/2019 2:09 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 12/3/2019 4:16 PM, James wrote:

snip

Well, well.Â* Who'd have thought that!


Well Grant Petersen has something to say about brakes...
https://rivbike.tumblr.com/post/144237651719/rim-disc-brakes-1149-words-estimated-reading


Meh Opinion piece, with added fag paper Physics noting the date 2016 is
when discs starting to get traction on road bikes, where a number of such
articles, generally claiming the sky is falling, funnily enough in the real
world the sky hasn’t fallen.


.... and indeed, the sky stayed up above before disc brakes, too!

--
- Frank Krygowski
 




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