Self Driving Vehicles

On 12/23/2019 5:40 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 23 Dec 2019 16:24:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 12/23/2019 1:04 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, December 22, 2019 at 9:46:23 PM UTC-8, Claus Aßmann wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:
I was saying that I didn't think that self driving vehicles would work.

Are you talking about self-driving bicycles
or why are you posting this here?

[since it is off-topic here I won't post a reply about the
object recognition problems....]

--
Note: please read the netiquette before posting. I will almost never
reply to top-postings which include a full copy of the previous
article(s) at the end because it's annoying, shows that the poster
is too lazy to trim his article, and it's wasting the time of all readers.

Claus, this is a continuation from another string. And the significance of it is that self driving cars do not get road rage and run people on bicycles over.

It's true the self driving cars don't deliberately try to run over
cyclists. But there are real concerns over their ability to reliably
detect bicyclists and respond appropriately.

And it's not a simple problem. For one thing, bicycles and bicyclists
come in a dizzying array of configurations. Someone riding with loaded
panniers can "look" different than a person pedaling an unladen bike.
Tandems, recumbents, trikes, enclosed velocars, bike trailers, etc. can
mess with the detection.

For another thing, bicyclists have much more variation in behavior than
do other vehicle operators. Riding wrong way, turning left from a right
side bike lane, running red lights etc. are more common for people on
bikes than people in motor vehicles.

The normally useless League of American Bicyclists is lobbying for legal
standards for self driving cars. I think there should be tests that the
systems must pass, which includes detecting a wide variety of
bicyclists. ISTM we need something analogous to a driver's test, but for
the self driving system. I'm surprised it's not already a requirement.

Have self driving cars been authorized for use on U.S. highways?
Singapore, I know has done some tests of self driven busses with the
eventual intent of having automated busses but to date they apparently
haven't been successful.

There are various levels of "self driving" or "driver assist" already on
the road. There was big news maybe a year ago when a Tesla misread a
diversion in a road and crashed into the divider at the split, killing
the driver. And a few weeks ago there was a YouTube of a guy obviously
asleep as his Tesla drove along a freeway.

Supposedly, our city is going to get a driverless shuttle bus system
within a year or two, to connect the downtown, the university and a
hospital complex.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, 23 December 2019 22:07:35 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/23/2019 6:19 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 23 December 2019 16:16:12 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/22/2019 8:16 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


I can see moving more into the lanr but deliberately slowing down just to **** the guy off is just asking for an escalation.

Well, it worked out. Perhaps because oncoming traffic would have
provided witnesses.

FWIW, I do something similar when a driver is tailgating my car. First I
flash the brake lights three times. Most idiots then realize they're too
close and they back off.

But if an idiot stays close (or as some do, gets even closer) I slow
down. I'm determined not to reward obnoxious or dangerous behavior.


--
- Frank Krygowski

"Well, it worked out" is exactly what a lot of people say after they've done something dangerous or aggravating. Riding a bicycle in the middle of a traffic lane and then DELIBERATELY slowing down to impede traffic is a very silly thing to do. There are many areas of the country where such behaviour would have rather serious consequences for the bicyclist. Even without that, there is now one more ****ed off motorist to add their voice to those who would like to see bicyclists banned from the roads or herded into segregated bicycling chutes.

Sorry, Sir, I disagree. If every cyclist pulls over at every sign of
motorist aggression, then more and more motorists are going to learn
that it pays to be aggressive. More and more roads are going to be off
limits to bicyclists.

And I don't believe this guy ended up thinking "I'm going to try to get
bicyclists banned from the roads." I think it's far more likely he ended
up thinking "Man, I was being a real jerk." And in general, I think
that's the normal result of the very rare confrontations I have.

Let me give you two other incidents, both within the past five years.

1) I was on my way to a bike club ride, and I was ahead of schedule. At
one narrow underpass there's no way to avoid taking the lane, except
perhaps to get off the bike and walk a narrow dirt path by the side of
the road. (Perhaps that's what you would do?)

Anyway, a guy in a small pickup waited behind me until it was clear,
then passed in the oncoming lane, as he should have; but he blared his
horn all through the pass. Then, within 100 feet or so, he turned left
into a plaza parking lot.

I followed him and saw him just as he was walking into a pharmacy. I
said "Is there something wrong with your horn?" He said "You're supposed
to get out of the way!"

I said "Wrong. Ohio law gives me full rights to the road, and if the
lane is narrow I'm supposed to ride in the center."

He said "Oh. I'm sorry. I didn't know that."

2) Same deal, different location, except the scrappy van passing me
didn't have to wait at all. He immediately turned left into a
residential street. I knew that neighborhood was essentially a
cul-de-sac. I followed him.

I found him about a block further on, pulled over on the left side of a
very quiet street, talking with a guy who was standing on his front
lawn. I rode up between them and said "4511.55" The driver looked
shocked and nervous, and his buddy looked confused. The driver said
"Pardon me?"

"4511.55. That's the Ohio law that gives bikes full rights to the road."

"Oh. I'm sorry."

And I rode on.

If the guy behind your bicycle was that impatient would it really have hurt you to pull over and let him by? Yes, because it would have what?

If I had kowtowed to those three jerks, three people would have gotten
the message that bullying works. Instead, by my count, there were four
people that got educated about our legal rights to the road, counting
the guy on the lawn.

I look at it this way. My bicycle weighs between 20 and 25 pounds. A car is around 3000 pounds and the driver is totally protected by it. If push comes to shove my bicycle will lose every time. I prefer not to take the risk and thus I try not to do things to deliberately **** off a driver of a motor vehicle.

And when you're driving your car do you pull off the road for trucks? If
you were on a motorcycle, would you pull off the road for a Honda Fit?

I don't base my driving or riding practices on relative weight. I base
them on the laws, and on what I've learned in about five different
cycling courses, plus tons of reading and countless miles of riding.

Your beliefs and practices once again differ from what I think most bicyclists would do.

Oh, I'm sure most bicyclists don't ride as I do. Most bicyclists haven't
bothered to consciously learn anything about riding. Many ride without
lights at night, ride mostly on sidewalks, routinely blow stop signs and
traffic lights, don't maintain their bikes, ride facing traffic, never
signal turns or lane changes, don't know how to execute a proper left
turn, can't ride a straight line, etc.

I'm not going to emulate "most riders," just as my driving doesn't
emulate "most drivers."


--
- Frank Krygowski

You on your bicycle deliberately holding back traffic as you did in your first comment are no different than those car drivers who do silly things and then spend time justifying their actions. I know a lot of areas where if you did what you did you would have been at least bumped from behind or worse. One day your luck is going to run out and you'll have a run down feeling that even Geritol won't help.

Cheers

On Mon, 23 Dec 2019 22:08:54 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 12/23/2019 7:33 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 23 Dec 2019 15:19:51 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, 23 December 2019 16:16:12 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/22/2019 8:16 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 22 December 2019 20:05:40 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/22/2019 5:43 PM, jbeattie wrote:

Bicycle content: F*** cars! I was channeling Chalo today on a ride on our woefully inadequate old farm roads that now service sprawling suburban McManson developments.

Those are the worst.

I was on this narrow arterial dodging all the aholes in Canyoneros pouring out of this suburban mega-church. I guess God told them to go out and flatten a cyclist.

Many years ago, I was riding my bike to our church, on a two lane highway.

About a block from the church, a guy came flying down his driveway in
reverse, headed toward me. I yelled loudly and he stopped, but then he
began to tailgate me impatiently. So I moved even further into the lane
and slowed to about 12 mph. "Let him stew," I thought.

I turned into the church's parking lot, and so did he. Apparently, he
was rushing to get to church on time.

I locked my bike as he parked his car. We entered almost simultaneously,
him just ahead of me. I took a seat at the left, he took one at the
right. Neither of us said anything, and I don't know who he is. (It's a
pretty big parish.)

I figure kindness on the roads would be a good practical sermon. In
fact, a parish could devote an entire year to that theme.


--
- Frank Krygowski

You're lucky he didn't get road rage and run you over and then claim he didn't see you.

I can see moving more into the lanr but deliberately slowing down just to **** the guy off is just asking for an escalation.

Well, it worked out. Perhaps because oncoming traffic would have
provided witnesses.

FWIW, I do something similar when a driver is tailgating my car. First I
flash the brake lights three times. Most idiots then realize they're too
close and they back off.

But if an idiot stays close (or as some do, gets even closer) I slow
down. I'm determined not to reward obnoxious or dangerous behavior.


--
- Frank Krygowski

"Well, it worked out" is exactly what a lot of people say after they've done something dangerous or aggravating. Riding a bicycle in the middle of a traffic lane and then DELIBERATELY slowing down to impede traffic is a very silly thing to do. There are many areas of the country where such behaviour would have rather serious consequences for the bicyclist. Even without that, there is now one more ****ed off motorist to add their voice to those who would like to see bicyclists banned from the roads or herded into segregated bicycling chutes.

If the guy behind your bicycle was that impatient would it really have hurt you to pull over and let him by? Yes, because it would have what?

I look at it this way. My bicycle weighs between 20 and 25 pounds. A car is around 3000 pounds and the driver is totally protected by it. If push comes to shove my bicycle will lose every time. I prefer not to take the risk and thus I try not to do things to deliberately **** off a driver of a motor vehicle. Your beliefs and practices once again differ from what I think most bicyclists would do.

Cheers

Cheers

I have discussed with Frank his advise of "taking the lane" a number
of times. I ride on roads where traffic is *normally* moving at speeds
of 100 KPH or faster while on my bicycle I am thundering along at,
perhaps, 25 KPH, and have voiced the opinion that riding out in front
of several tons, in the case of trucks, traveling at four times my
velocity may not the wisest thing to do.

On the other hand, riding in a village where traffic is moving only
slightly faster than one is on a bicycle perhaps "taking the lane" is
viable.

But even in those circumstances one should, in my opinion, always be
aware of the fact, that in the event of a bicycle - motor vehicle
collision it is inevitably the bicycle that receives the greatest
damage and at highway speeds the most likely results will be the death
of the cyclist.

Thus it would seem to behoove the cyclist, for his own protection, to
avoid, in any way possible, contact with other traffic.

So, ride in your basement on a wind trainer.

Have at it, if that's all you can handle. But I feel sorry for you.

Insult if you chose but a bit more accurate reading would show that:
"I ride on roads where traffic is *normally* moving at speeds
of 100 KPH or faster..."

Frank, it is perfectly all right to froth at the mouth in fury but
don't get it all over the screen so you can't see what the other guy
said, before you post your insults. (It makes you look like a fool)
--
cheers,

John B.

On Monday, December 23, 2019 at 11:10:55 PM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 23 December 2019 22:07:35 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/23/2019 6:19 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 23 December 2019 16:16:12 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/22/2019 8:16 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


I can see moving more into the lanr but deliberately slowing down just to **** the guy off is just asking for an escalation.

Well, it worked out. Perhaps because oncoming traffic would have
provided witnesses.

FWIW, I do something similar when a driver is tailgating my car. First I
flash the brake lights three times. Most idiots then realize they're too
close and they back off.

But if an idiot stays close (or as some do, gets even closer) I slow
down. I'm determined not to reward obnoxious or dangerous behavior.


--
- Frank Krygowski

"Well, it worked out" is exactly what a lot of people say after they've done something dangerous or aggravating. Riding a bicycle in the middle of a traffic lane and then DELIBERATELY slowing down to impede traffic is a very silly thing to do. There are many areas of the country where such behaviour would have rather serious consequences for the bicyclist. Even without that, there is now one more ****ed off motorist to add their voice to those who would like to see bicyclists banned from the roads or herded into segregated bicycling chutes.

Sorry, Sir, I disagree. If every cyclist pulls over at every sign of
motorist aggression, then more and more motorists are going to learn
that it pays to be aggressive. More and more roads are going to be off
limits to bicyclists.

And I don't believe this guy ended up thinking "I'm going to try to get
bicyclists banned from the roads." I think it's far more likely he ended
up thinking "Man, I was being a real jerk." And in general, I think
that's the normal result of the very rare confrontations I have.

Let me give you two other incidents, both within the past five years.

1) I was on my way to a bike club ride, and I was ahead of schedule. At
one narrow underpass there's no way to avoid taking the lane, except
perhaps to get off the bike and walk a narrow dirt path by the side of
the road. (Perhaps that's what you would do?)

Anyway, a guy in a small pickup waited behind me until it was clear,
then passed in the oncoming lane, as he should have; but he blared his
horn all through the pass. Then, within 100 feet or so, he turned left
into a plaza parking lot.

I followed him and saw him just as he was walking into a pharmacy. I
said "Is there something wrong with your horn?" He said "You're supposed
to get out of the way!"

I said "Wrong. Ohio law gives me full rights to the road, and if the
lane is narrow I'm supposed to ride in the center."

He said "Oh. I'm sorry. I didn't know that."

2) Same deal, different location, except the scrappy van passing me
didn't have to wait at all. He immediately turned left into a
residential street. I knew that neighborhood was essentially a
cul-de-sac. I followed him.

I found him about a block further on, pulled over on the left side of a
very quiet street, talking with a guy who was standing on his front
lawn. I rode up between them and said "4511.55" The driver looked
shocked and nervous, and his buddy looked confused. The driver said
"Pardon me?"

"4511.55. That's the Ohio law that gives bikes full rights to the road."

"Oh. I'm sorry."

And I rode on.

If the guy behind your bicycle was that impatient would it really have hurt you to pull over and let him by? Yes, because it would have what?

If I had kowtowed to those three jerks, three people would have gotten
the message that bullying works. Instead, by my count, there were four
people that got educated about our legal rights to the road, counting
the guy on the lawn.

I look at it this way. My bicycle weighs between 20 and 25 pounds. A car is around 3000 pounds and the driver is totally protected by it. If push comes to shove my bicycle will lose every time. I prefer not to take the risk and thus I try not to do things to deliberately **** off a driver of a motor vehicle.

And when you're driving your car do you pull off the road for trucks? If
you were on a motorcycle, would you pull off the road for a Honda Fit?

I don't base my driving or riding practices on relative weight. I base
them on the laws, and on what I've learned in about five different
cycling courses, plus tons of reading and countless miles of riding.

Your beliefs and practices once again differ from what I think most bicyclists would do.

Oh, I'm sure most bicyclists don't ride as I do. Most bicyclists haven't
bothered to consciously learn anything about riding. Many ride without
lights at night, ride mostly on sidewalks, routinely blow stop signs and
traffic lights, don't maintain their bikes, ride facing traffic, never
signal turns or lane changes, don't know how to execute a proper left
turn, can't ride a straight line, etc.

I'm not going to emulate "most riders," just as my driving doesn't
emulate "most drivers."


--
- Frank Krygowski

You on your bicycle deliberately holding back traffic as you did in your first comment are no different than those car drivers who do silly things and then spend time justifying their actions.

You mean by driving under the speed limit? "Horrors! How dare they! Everyone
knows it's a lower limit, not an upper limit."

No, Sir, that's wrong. It's not a lower limit. A bicyclist is allowed to ride at
a normal speed for a bicycle. That's a very close paraphrase of an Ohio appelate
court decision. There is no requirement for me to ride as fast as I can. There
is also no requirement for me to leave the roadway if someone else wants to
drive faster than I'm riding.

What I did was perfectly legal, and I believe it ultimately taught that driver a
lesson he needed to learn. The puzzle is, why are you arguing in favor of an
abusive motorist?

I know a lot of areas where if you did what you did you would have been at least bumped from behind or worse.

You know a lot of areas where a bicyclist would not dare to assert his or her
proven legal rights because of a single rude motorist on a quiet Sunday morning?

The ladies in this video could teach you something:
https://cyclingsavvy.org/

- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, December 23, 2019 at 11:45:12 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 23 Dec 2019 22:08:54 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 12/23/2019 7:33 PM, John B. wrote:


Thus it would seem to behoove the cyclist, for his own protection, to
avoid, in any way possible, contact with other traffic.

So, ride in your basement on a wind trainer.

Have at it, if that's all you can handle. But I feel sorry for you.

Insult if you chose but a bit more accurate reading would show that:
"I ride on roads where traffic is *normally* moving at speeds
of 100 KPH or faster..."

A _perfectly_ accurate reading would show that I was talking about riding to
church on Sunday morning, and dealing with one rude motorist. Nobody was going
100kph. Yet you advised "avoiding, IF AT ALL POSSIBLE, contact with other traffic."

If you meant physical contact, I suppose you might have a case. But in about five decades of riding, that's not been a problem (despite Sir's and you fears.)
If you mean I should not have been on the street I was riding, I'm sorry, but
that's nuts. I'm not going to ride only on segregated bike trails.

Yes, it's conceivable that a motorist could try to murder me. But it's also
conceivable that a car could crash into a house and knock a sleeping person out
of bed. (We had one of those incidents on the news tonight.) It would be
paranoid to give up road riding - or sleeping in bed - because of such a rare
possibility.

Frank, it is perfectly all right to froth at the mouth in fury but
don't get it all over the screen so you can't see what the other guy
said, before you post your insults. (It makes you look like a fool)

Sorry, John, I'm not frothing. I'm not even angry. But I'm quite surprised that
two purportedly avid cyclists think another cyclist should give away his legal
rights if a motorist acts like an ass.

Guys, grow a pair!

- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, December 23, 2019 at 9:30:45 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, December 23, 2019 at 11:10:55 PM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 23 December 2019 22:07:35 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/23/2019 6:19 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 23 December 2019 16:16:12 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/22/2019 8:16 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


I can see moving more into the lanr but deliberately slowing down just to **** the guy off is just asking for an escalation.

Well, it worked out. Perhaps because oncoming traffic would have
provided witnesses.

FWIW, I do something similar when a driver is tailgating my car. First I
flash the brake lights three times. Most idiots then realize they're too
close and they back off.

But if an idiot stays close (or as some do, gets even closer) I slow
down. I'm determined not to reward obnoxious or dangerous behavior..


--
- Frank Krygowski

"Well, it worked out" is exactly what a lot of people say after they've done something dangerous or aggravating. Riding a bicycle in the middle of a traffic lane and then DELIBERATELY slowing down to impede traffic is a very silly thing to do. There are many areas of the country where such behaviour would have rather serious consequences for the bicyclist. Even without that, there is now one more ****ed off motorist to add their voice to those who would like to see bicyclists banned from the roads or herded into segregated bicycling chutes.

Sorry, Sir, I disagree. If every cyclist pulls over at every sign of
motorist aggression, then more and more motorists are going to learn
that it pays to be aggressive. More and more roads are going to be off
limits to bicyclists.

And I don't believe this guy ended up thinking "I'm going to try to get
bicyclists banned from the roads." I think it's far more likely he ended
up thinking "Man, I was being a real jerk." And in general, I think
that's the normal result of the very rare confrontations I have.

Let me give you two other incidents, both within the past five years.

1) I was on my way to a bike club ride, and I was ahead of schedule. At
one narrow underpass there's no way to avoid taking the lane, except
perhaps to get off the bike and walk a narrow dirt path by the side of
the road. (Perhaps that's what you would do?)

Anyway, a guy in a small pickup waited behind me until it was clear,
then passed in the oncoming lane, as he should have; but he blared his
horn all through the pass. Then, within 100 feet or so, he turned left
into a plaza parking lot.

I followed him and saw him just as he was walking into a pharmacy. I
said "Is there something wrong with your horn?" He said "You're supposed
to get out of the way!"

I said "Wrong. Ohio law gives me full rights to the road, and if the
lane is narrow I'm supposed to ride in the center."

He said "Oh. I'm sorry. I didn't know that."

2) Same deal, different location, except the scrappy van passing me
didn't have to wait at all. He immediately turned left into a
residential street. I knew that neighborhood was essentially a
cul-de-sac. I followed him.

I found him about a block further on, pulled over on the left side of a
very quiet street, talking with a guy who was standing on his front
lawn. I rode up between them and said "4511.55" The driver looked
shocked and nervous, and his buddy looked confused. The driver said
"Pardon me?"

"4511.55. That's the Ohio law that gives bikes full rights to the road."

"Oh. I'm sorry."

And I rode on.

If the guy behind your bicycle was that impatient would it really have hurt you to pull over and let him by? Yes, because it would have what?

If I had kowtowed to those three jerks, three people would have gotten
the message that bullying works. Instead, by my count, there were four
people that got educated about our legal rights to the road, counting
the guy on the lawn.

I look at it this way. My bicycle weighs between 20 and 25 pounds. A car is around 3000 pounds and the driver is totally protected by it. If push comes to shove my bicycle will lose every time. I prefer not to take the risk and thus I try not to do things to deliberately **** off a driver of a motor vehicle.

And when you're driving your car do you pull off the road for trucks? If
you were on a motorcycle, would you pull off the road for a Honda Fit?

I don't base my driving or riding practices on relative weight. I base
them on the laws, and on what I've learned in about five different
cycling courses, plus tons of reading and countless miles of riding.

Your beliefs and practices once again differ from what I think most bicyclists would do.

Oh, I'm sure most bicyclists don't ride as I do. Most bicyclists haven't
bothered to consciously learn anything about riding. Many ride without
lights at night, ride mostly on sidewalks, routinely blow stop signs and
traffic lights, don't maintain their bikes, ride facing traffic, never
signal turns or lane changes, don't know how to execute a proper left
turn, can't ride a straight line, etc.

I'm not going to emulate "most riders," just as my driving doesn't
emulate "most drivers."


--
- Frank Krygowski

You on your bicycle deliberately holding back traffic as you did in your first comment are no different than those car drivers who do silly things and then spend time justifying their actions.

You mean by driving under the speed limit? "Horrors! How dare they! Everyone
knows it's a lower limit, not an upper limit."

No, Sir, that's wrong. It's not a lower limit. A bicyclist is allowed to ride at
a normal speed for a bicycle. That's a very close paraphrase of an Ohio appelate
court decision. There is no requirement for me to ride as fast as I can. There
is also no requirement for me to leave the roadway if someone else wants to
drive faster than I'm riding.

Yes, but that is in the republic of Ohio, basically the only place where that rule applies, assuming it still does. Virtually every other state has an impeding law or slow moving vehicle law -- even for cars. Washington even has a numerical rule (five vehicles): https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=46.61.427 What's good for cars is good for bikes, no? Can't have a parade without a parade permit. There is a time to "control" traffic and a time not to control traffic and get out of the way. The same is true if you are in a car, on a horse, in a golf cart, etc., etc.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Mon, 23 Dec 2019 21:44:43 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Monday, December 23, 2019 at 11:45:12 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 23 Dec 2019 22:08:54 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 12/23/2019 7:33 PM, John B. wrote:


Thus it would seem to behoove the cyclist, for his own protection, to
avoid, in any way possible, contact with other traffic.

So, ride in your basement on a wind trainer.

Have at it, if that's all you can handle. But I feel sorry for you.

Insult if you chose but a bit more accurate reading would show that:
"I ride on roads where traffic is *normally* moving at speeds
of 100 KPH or faster..."

A _perfectly_ accurate reading would show that I was talking about riding to
church on Sunday morning, and dealing with one rude motorist. Nobody was going
100kph. Yet you advised "avoiding, IF AT ALL POSSIBLE, contact with other traffic."

If you meant physical contact, I suppose you might have a case. But in about five decades of riding, that's not been a problem (despite Sir's and you fears.)
If you mean I should not have been on the street I was riding, I'm sorry, but
that's nuts. I'm not going to ride only on segregated bike trails.

Yes, it's conceivable that a motorist could try to murder me. But it's also
conceivable that a car could crash into a house and knock a sleeping person out
of bed. (We had one of those incidents on the news tonight.) It would be
paranoid to give up road riding - or sleeping in bed - because of such a rare
possibility.

Frank, it is perfectly all right to froth at the mouth in fury but
don't get it all over the screen so you can't see what the other guy
said, before you post your insults. (It makes you look like a fool)

Sorry, John, I'm not frothing. I'm not even angry. But I'm quite surprised that
two purportedly avid cyclists think another cyclist should give away his legal
rights if a motorist acts like an ass.

Guys, grow a pair!

- Frank Krygowski

Should give away his legal rights.... Yes, it makes perfect sense. Or
does it?

I came across some data on vehicle - pedestrian collisions and while
it isn't cyclists I suggest that it has some relationship as the
cyclist has about as much protection in a collision as the pedestrian.

Remembering that I was referring in my post of cycling on a highway
with motor vehicle traffic traveling at 100 kph, or faster, while I'm
whizzing along at more or less 25 kph, a difference of about 75kph.
The chart, published by the European Commission for Mobility and
Transport (Road Safety) shows that the chance of death of a
pedestrian struck by a vehicle traveling at 75 kph is ~98%. I suggest
that the chances of death in a motor vehicle - bicycle collision at
the same speed is very similar.

Refusing not to give up one's "legal Rights" in conditions that offer
a 98% chance of death hardly seems like a logical idea.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, 24 December 2019 02:05:00 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 23 Dec 2019 21:44:43 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Monday, December 23, 2019 at 11:45:12 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 23 Dec 2019 22:08:54 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 12/23/2019 7:33 PM, John B. wrote:


Thus it would seem to behoove the cyclist, for his own protection, to
avoid, in any way possible, contact with other traffic.

So, ride in your basement on a wind trainer.

Have at it, if that's all you can handle. But I feel sorry for you.

Insult if you chose but a bit more accurate reading would show that:
"I ride on roads where traffic is *normally* moving at speeds
of 100 KPH or faster..."

A _perfectly_ accurate reading would show that I was talking about riding to
church on Sunday morning, and dealing with one rude motorist. Nobody was going
100kph. Yet you advised "avoiding, IF AT ALL POSSIBLE, contact with other traffic."

If you meant physical contact, I suppose you might have a case. But in about five decades of riding, that's not been a problem (despite Sir's and you fears.)
If you mean I should not have been on the street I was riding, I'm sorry, but
that's nuts. I'm not going to ride only on segregated bike trails.

Yes, it's conceivable that a motorist could try to murder me. But it's also
conceivable that a car could crash into a house and knock a sleeping person out
of bed. (We had one of those incidents on the news tonight.) It would be
paranoid to give up road riding - or sleeping in bed - because of such a rare
possibility.

Frank, it is perfectly all right to froth at the mouth in fury but
don't get it all over the screen so you can't see what the other guy
said, before you post your insults. (It makes you look like a fool)

Sorry, John, I'm not frothing. I'm not even angry. But I'm quite surprised that
two purportedly avid cyclists think another cyclist should give away his legal
rights if a motorist acts like an ass.

Guys, grow a pair!

- Frank Krygowski

Should give away his legal rights.... Yes, it makes perfect sense. Or
does it?

I came across some data on vehicle - pedestrian collisions and while
it isn't cyclists I suggest that it has some relationship as the
cyclist has about as much protection in a collision as the pedestrian.

Remembering that I was referring in my post of cycling on a highway
with motor vehicle traffic traveling at 100 kph, or faster, while I'm
whizzing along at more or less 25 kph, a difference of about 75kph.
The chart, published by the European Commission for Mobility and
Transport (Road Safety) shows that the chance of death of a
pedestrian struck by a vehicle traveling at 75 kph is ~98%. I suggest
that the chances of death in a motor vehicle - bicycle collision at
the same speed is very similar.

Refusing not to give up one's "legal Rights" in conditions that offer
a 98% chance of death hardly seems like a logical idea.
--
cheers,

John B.

Once again Frank has posted an incident and then morphed that incident into something else entirely.

The point that I was trying to make and that Frank has ignored or rationalized to suit his behaviour is, that it's wrong to DELIBERATELY SLOW DOWN SO AS TO IMPEDE TRAFFIC. I be that all Frank did was **** off that driver. So now you have two ****ed off people = one bicyclist who didn't like what a driver did, and one driver who didn't like what the bicyclist did. I do wonder what would have happened had a police officer seen Frank deliberately move into the lane and then SLOW down? Of course Frank claims he'd get away with it as he's friends with most police officers in his village. This incident also shows that his village is NOT the bicycling nirvana Frank claims it is. LOL

Cheers

On 24/12/2019 07.04, John B. wrote:

snip

Refusing not to give up one's "legal Rights" in conditions that offer
a 98% chance of death hardly seems like a logical idea.

But it's important to die knowing you were in the right :-)

Btw, sig-sep bust?

Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 23 December 2019 22:07:35 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/23/2019 6:19 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 23 December 2019 16:16:12 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/22/2019 8:16 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


I can see moving more into the lanr but deliberately slowing down
just to **** the guy off is just asking for an escalation.

Well, it worked out. Perhaps because oncoming traffic would have
provided witnesses.

FWIW, I do something similar when a driver is tailgating my car. First I
flash the brake lights three times. Most idiots then realize they're too
close and they back off.

But if an idiot stays close (or as some do, gets even closer) I slow
down. I'm determined not to reward obnoxious or dangerous behavior.


--
- Frank Krygowski

"Well, it worked out" is exactly what a lot of people say after they've
done something dangerous or aggravating. Riding a bicycle in the middle
of a traffic lane and then DELIBERATELY slowing down to impede traffic
is a very silly thing to do. There are many areas of the country where
such behaviour would have rather serious consequences for the
bicyclist. Even without that, there is now one more ****ed off motorist
to add their voice to those who would like to see bicyclists banned
from the roads or herded into segregated bicycling chutes.

Sorry, Sir, I disagree. If every cyclist pulls over at every sign of
motorist aggression, then more and more motorists are going to learn
that it pays to be aggressive. More and more roads are going to be off
limits to bicyclists.

And I don't believe this guy ended up thinking "I'm going to try to get
bicyclists banned from the roads." I think it's far more likely he ended
up thinking "Man, I was being a real jerk." And in general, I think
that's the normal result of the very rare confrontations I have.

Let me give you two other incidents, both within the past five years.

1) I was on my way to a bike club ride, and I was ahead of schedule. At
one narrow underpass there's no way to avoid taking the lane, except
perhaps to get off the bike and walk a narrow dirt path by the side of
the road. (Perhaps that's what you would do?)

Anyway, a guy in a small pickup waited behind me until it was clear,
then passed in the oncoming lane, as he should have; but he blared his
horn all through the pass. Then, within 100 feet or so, he turned left
into a plaza parking lot.

I followed him and saw him just as he was walking into a pharmacy. I
said "Is there something wrong with your horn?" He said "You're supposed
to get out of the way!"

I said "Wrong. Ohio law gives me full rights to the road, and if the
lane is narrow I'm supposed to ride in the center."

He said "Oh. I'm sorry. I didn't know that."

2) Same deal, different location, except the scrappy van passing me
didn't have to wait at all. He immediately turned left into a
residential street. I knew that neighborhood was essentially a
cul-de-sac. I followed him.

I found him about a block further on, pulled over on the left side of a
very quiet street, talking with a guy who was standing on his front
lawn. I rode up between them and said "4511.55" The driver looked
shocked and nervous, and his buddy looked confused. The driver said
"Pardon me?"

"4511.55. That's the Ohio law that gives bikes full rights to the road."

"Oh. I'm sorry."

And I rode on.

If the guy behind your bicycle was that impatient would it really have
hurt you to pull over and let him by? Yes, because it would have what?

If I had kowtowed to those three jerks, three people would have gotten
the message that bullying works. Instead, by my count, there were four
people that got educated about our legal rights to the road, counting
the guy on the lawn.

I look at it this way. My bicycle weighs between 20 and 25 pounds. A
car is around 3000 pounds and the driver is totally protected by it.
If push comes to shove my bicycle will lose every time. I prefer not to
take the risk and thus I try not to do things to deliberately **** off
a driver of a motor vehicle.

And when you're driving your car do you pull off the road for trucks? If
you were on a motorcycle, would you pull off the road for a Honda Fit?

I don't base my driving or riding practices on relative weight. I base
them on the laws, and on what I've learned in about five different
cycling courses, plus tons of reading and countless miles of riding.

Your beliefs and practices once again differ from what I think most bicyclists would do.

Oh, I'm sure most bicyclists don't ride as I do. Most bicyclists haven't
bothered to consciously learn anything about riding. Many ride without
lights at night, ride mostly on sidewalks, routinely blow stop signs and
traffic lights, don't maintain their bikes, ride facing traffic, never
signal turns or lane changes, don't know how to execute a proper left
turn, can't ride a straight line, etc.

I'm not going to emulate "most riders," just as my driving doesn't
emulate "most drivers."


--
- Frank Krygowski

You on your bicycle deliberately holding back traffic as you did in your
first comment are no different than those car drivers who do silly things
and then spend time justifying their actions. I know a lot of areas where
if you did what you did you would have been at least bumped from behind
or worse. One day your luck is going to run out and you'll have a run
down feeling that even Geritol won't help.

Cheers


A tale of two Christians.