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Selecting An Appropriate Bolt



 
 
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  #21  
Old April 18th 17, 12:19 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doug Landau
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Posts: 1,282
Default Selecting An Appropriate Bolt

On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 11:11:18 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/14/2017 12:33 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 7:27:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/14/2017 9:14 AM, Art Shapiro wrote:
On 4/14/2017 5:35 AM, AMuzi wrote:

Original handlebar clamp bolts are Grade 8; readily
available and cheap.
Grade 5 may be strong enough but for pennies difference I
suggest an 8.

How does one get these "readily available" Grade 8 guys?
Deda doesn't seem to have much of a web presence outside of
Italy. Is this a generic item stocked by a good LBS?


Any metric fastener supplier if not your local hardware store.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=DIN+912+grade+8&t=ha&ia=web


My neighborhood hardware store has them: http://aboysupply.com/wp-content/upl...1024x415_c.png They have a crazy selection of fasteners.

By the way, what's the deal with thread pitch? I always worry I'm getting the wrong pitch, but I guess that the whole "standard/fine/extra fine" thread pitch only kicks in with fasteners over 8mm(?). Otherwise, it's a pre-set. Right?


No. It's just the charts that only kick in at 8. They are clearly both a)written by someone who doesn't actually know, themselves, and b)plagarising heavily from each other, and repeating the other's mistakes.

There are metric fine pitch threads
https://mdmetric.com/tech/thddat3.htm
like 5mm-0.5 instead of 5mm-0.8


That chart is ****ed up. It says fine but lists more than one thread pitch in the first column, and inconsistently shows extra- and super-fine pitches instead.

The commonly found standard M5 bolt is indeed 0.8 pitch, but the commonly found fine pitch M5 is 0.7. 0.5 must be extra-fine or super-fine. Which is why when you buy a tap and dies set it comes with 5-.8 and 5-.7 but not 5-.5.
I think but am not 100% sure that M6 fine is 0.8 not 0.75.

http://www.sears.com/craftsman-39-pc...g&gclsrc=aw.ds

but I've hardly ever come across them in real life.

No? Are you sure - you've never chased munged up pedal threads? Doing so sends you down to the hardware store for an M10-1.0 tap, because your tap and dies set comes with a 10-1.5 (standard) and 10-1.25 (fine).

There is at least one other place where there is a fine thread, an 8, I think, and I think it's the brake pivot bolt, but am not sure I'm remembering correctly.

What's the thread pitch of derailer hangers?

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  #22  
Old April 18th 17, 01:50 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 8,932
Default Selecting An Appropriate Bolt

On 4/17/2017 6:19 PM, Doug Landau wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 11:11:18 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/14/2017 12:33 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 7:27:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/14/2017 9:14 AM, Art Shapiro wrote:
On 4/14/2017 5:35 AM, AMuzi wrote:

Original handlebar clamp bolts are Grade 8; readily
available and cheap.
Grade 5 may be strong enough but for pennies difference I
suggest an 8.

How does one get these "readily available" Grade 8 guys?
Deda doesn't seem to have much of a web presence outside of
Italy. Is this a generic item stocked by a good LBS?


Any metric fastener supplier if not your local hardware store.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=DIN+912+grade+8&t=ha&ia=web

My neighborhood hardware store has them: http://aboysupply.com/wp-content/upl...1024x415_c.png They have a crazy selection of fasteners.

By the way, what's the deal with thread pitch? I always worry I'm getting the wrong pitch, but I guess that the whole "standard/fine/extra fine" thread pitch only kicks in with fasteners over 8mm(?). Otherwise, it's a pre-set. Right?


No. It's just the charts that only kick in at 8. They are clearly both a)written by someone who doesn't actually know, themselves, and b)plagarising heavily from each other, and repeating the other's mistakes.

There are metric fine pitch threads
https://mdmetric.com/tech/thddat3.htm
like 5mm-0.5 instead of 5mm-0.8


That chart is ****ed up. It says fine but lists more than one thread pitch in the first column, and inconsistently shows extra- and super-fine pitches instead.

The commonly found standard M5 bolt is indeed 0.8 pitch, but the commonly found fine pitch M5 is 0.7. 0.5 must be extra-fine or super-fine. Which is why when you buy a tap and dies set it comes with 5-.8 and 5-.7 but not 5-.5.
I think but am not 100% sure that M6 fine is 0.8 not 0.75.

http://www.sears.com/craftsman-39-pc...g&gclsrc=aw.ds

but I've hardly ever come across them in real life.

No? Are you sure - you've never chased munged up pedal threads? Doing so sends you down to the hardware store for an M10-1.0 tap, because your tap and dies set comes with a 10-1.5 (standard) and 10-1.25 (fine).

There is at least one other place where there is a fine thread, an 8, I think, and I think it's the brake pivot bolt, but am not sure I'm remembering correctly.

What's the thread pitch of derailer hangers?


Pedals are 9/16"-20tpi. The older metric format was m14x1.25
(now abandoned) and there are 1/2"-20 for steel OPC.

Modern gear tabs are m10x1. Campagnolo changed from 10f26
(WW 55deg) in 1999.

Sidepull pivot bolts are mostly m6x1.0 but outliers include
Zeus 2001 with fine m6x0.75. There are (were) others but as
I noted they are outliers.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #23  
Old April 18th 17, 02:00 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doug Landau
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,282
Default Selecting An Appropriate Bolt

On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 5:50:28 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/17/2017 6:19 PM, Doug Landau wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 11:11:18 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/14/2017 12:33 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 7:27:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/14/2017 9:14 AM, Art Shapiro wrote:
On 4/14/2017 5:35 AM, AMuzi wrote:

Original handlebar clamp bolts are Grade 8; readily
available and cheap.
Grade 5 may be strong enough but for pennies difference I
suggest an 8.

How does one get these "readily available" Grade 8 guys?
Deda doesn't seem to have much of a web presence outside of
Italy. Is this a generic item stocked by a good LBS?


Any metric fastener supplier if not your local hardware store.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=DIN+912+grade+8&t=ha&ia=web

My neighborhood hardware store has them: http://aboysupply.com/wp-content/upl...1024x415_c.png They have a crazy selection of fasteners.

By the way, what's the deal with thread pitch? I always worry I'm getting the wrong pitch, but I guess that the whole "standard/fine/extra fine" thread pitch only kicks in with fasteners over 8mm(?). Otherwise, it's a pre-set. Right?


No. It's just the charts that only kick in at 8. They are clearly both a)written by someone who doesn't actually know, themselves, and b)plagarising heavily from each other, and repeating the other's mistakes.

There are metric fine pitch threads
https://mdmetric.com/tech/thddat3.htm
like 5mm-0.5 instead of 5mm-0.8


That chart is ****ed up. It says fine but lists more than one thread pitch in the first column, and inconsistently shows extra- and super-fine pitches instead.

The commonly found standard M5 bolt is indeed 0.8 pitch, but the commonly found fine pitch M5 is 0.7. 0.5 must be extra-fine or super-fine. Which is why when you buy a tap and dies set it comes with 5-.8 and 5-.7 but not 5-.5.
I think but am not 100% sure that M6 fine is 0.8 not 0.75.

http://www.sears.com/craftsman-39-pc...g&gclsrc=aw.ds

but I've hardly ever come across them in real life.

No? Are you sure - you've never chased munged up pedal threads? Doing so sends you down to the hardware store for an M10-1.0 tap, because your tap and dies set comes with a 10-1.5 (standard) and 10-1.25 (fine).

There is at least one other place where there is a fine thread, an 8, I think, and I think it's the brake pivot bolt, but am not sure I'm remembering correctly.

What's the thread pitch of derailer hangers?


Pedals are 9/16"-20tpi. The older metric format was m14x1.25
(now abandoned) and there are 1/2"-20 for steel OPC.

Modern gear tabs are m10x1. Campagnolo changed from 10f26
(WW 55deg) in 1999.

Sidepull pivot bolts are mostly m6x1.0 but outliers include
Zeus 2001 with fine m6x0.75. There are (were) others but as
I noted they are outliers.



OK, guess i was rembering derailer hangars
http://www.parktool.com/product/frame-tap-tap-10
  #24  
Old April 18th 17, 03:26 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 5,280
Default Selecting An Appropriate Bolt

On 4/17/2017 7:19 PM, Doug Landau wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 11:11:18 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

There are metric fine pitch threads
https://mdmetric.com/tech/thddat3.htm
like 5mm-0.5 instead of 5mm-0.8


That chart is ****ed up. It says fine but lists more than one thread pitch in the first column, and inconsistently shows extra- and super-fine pitches instead.


I could have walked downstairs and opened my Machinery's Handbook but
didn't bother. As I said, I've hardly ever come across fine pitch
metric threads in real life. I was simply giving evidence that they exist.

but I've hardly ever come across them in real life.

No? Are you sure - you've never chased munged up pedal threads?


Actually, no, I don't think I ever have.

Doing so sends you down to the hardware store for an M10-1.0 tap, because your tap and dies set comes with a 10-1.5 (standard) and 10-1.25 (fine).


As Andrew says, my pedal threads are all 9/16", except for some kid bike
steel cranks. Andrew says 20 tpi, and I'll trust him. I've never
bothered to check.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #25  
Old April 18th 17, 04:29 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 331
Default Selecting An Appropriate Bolt

On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 16:19:15 -0700 (PDT), Doug Landau
wrote:

On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 11:11:18 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/14/2017 12:33 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 7:27:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/14/2017 9:14 AM, Art Shapiro wrote:
On 4/14/2017 5:35 AM, AMuzi wrote:

Original handlebar clamp bolts are Grade 8; readily
available and cheap.
Grade 5 may be strong enough but for pennies difference I
suggest an 8.

How does one get these "readily available" Grade 8 guys?
Deda doesn't seem to have much of a web presence outside of
Italy. Is this a generic item stocked by a good LBS?


Any metric fastener supplier if not your local hardware store.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=DIN+912+grade+8&t=ha&ia=web

My neighborhood hardware store has them: http://aboysupply.com/wp-content/upl...1024x415_c.png They have a crazy selection of fasteners.

By the way, what's the deal with thread pitch? I always worry I'm getting the wrong pitch, but I guess that the whole "standard/fine/extra fine" thread pitch only kicks in with fasteners over 8mm(?). Otherwise, it's a pre-set. Right?


No. It's just the charts that only kick in at 8. They are clearly both a)written by someone who doesn't actually know, themselves, and b)plagarising heavily from each other, and repeating the other's mistakes.

There are metric fine pitch threads
https://mdmetric.com/tech/thddat3.htm
like 5mm-0.5 instead of 5mm-0.8


That chart is ****ed up. It says fine but lists more than one thread pitch in the first column, and inconsistently shows extra- and super-fine pitches instead.

The commonly found standard M5 bolt is indeed 0.8 pitch, but the commonly found fine pitch M5 is 0.7. 0.5 must be extra-fine or super-fine. Which is why when you buy a tap and dies set it comes with 5-.8 and 5-.7 but not 5-.5.
I think but am not 100% sure that M6 fine is 0.8 not 0.75.

http://www.sears.com/craftsman-39-pc...g&gclsrc=aw.ds

but I've hardly ever come across them in real life.

No? Are you sure - you've never chased munged up pedal threads? Doing so sends you down to the hardware store for an M10-1.0 tap, because your tap and dies set comes with a 10-1.5 (standard) and 10-1.25 (fine).

There is at least one other place where there is a fine thread, an 8, I think, and I think it's the brake pivot bolt, but am not sure I'm remembering correctly.

What's the thread pitch of derailer hangers?


The "fine thread - course thread" discussion if essentially a very
simplistic categorizing of fasteners. The U.S. Unified thread system
provides a sort of rationalization for a UNC/UNF series but that
didn't and doesn't prevent fasteners being made in a large number of
thread pitches. In U.S. sizes we have, for example, the 1/4"x20tpi
(National Course), the 1/4 x 24 (NS), the 1/4 x 28 (NF), the 1/4 x 32
(NEF) and the 1/4 x 40 (NS).
  #26  
Old April 18th 17, 04:29 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 331
Default Selecting An Appropriate Bolt

On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 17:51:39 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 13:52:56 -0700 (PDT), Doug Landau
wrote:

On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 4:15:34 AM UTC-7, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 13 Apr 2017 20:07:48 -0700, Art Shapiro
wrote:

I had a bit of an adventure when one of the two handlebar-fixing bolts
on my Deda Murex quilled stem decided to snap with a rather impressive
cracking noise. I somehow didn't crash and happened to be only about
seven miles from home. I got slowly home holding the stem with one hand
and one of the brake levers on the dangling handlebars with the other
hand. (This is not recommended to the reader.)

I see that the bolt is a M6x18 tapered cone head Allen cap screw with
pressed-on washer.

The stem is two months shy of 15 years old, but I don't want to have
this happen again. Looking on eBay, I see quite a few appropriate
bolts, but I'm not sure what is optimal. Can anyone help?

Everything seems to be Grade 5. Is that safe enough, or do I really
want to (somehow) find Grade 8?

Many are titanium. Is that a better choice than the more-common steel?
Or should I look for stainless steel? I am always happy to save a few
grams, but not if that's a significant risk.

Advice welcome!

Art

Grade 5 bolts should certainly be strong enough to hold the handle
bars on. But there are grades 8 or 9 that are stronger.


What makes you say this? Do you have some #s to back this statement up, or is it just your wild guess? Have you calculated the load on this part when when a rider of a given weight hits a pothole at a given speed, or ??? And more importantly, why skimp here?

As an aside your description is incorrect. It might be an U.S. size
which might be 8-32 or it might be metric in which case it would be
M8-1.25 or maybe M8-1.0. A U.S. #8 bolt is about half the thickness
of a 8mm bolt.


Huh?!? What are you on about? It is you who is incorrect not he. He said it was an M6x18. The x is pronounced "by". Put M6x18 in google and click images. You will see M6 bolts in an 18mm length. He chose to identify the bolt by it's diameter and length, just like the rest of the world does most of the time.


You are right. I'll change my reply to read "It might be an U.S. size
which might be 6-32 or it might be metric in which case it would be
M6-1.0. A U.S. #6 bolt is about half the thickness
of a 6mm bolt." Happy now?

You are describing bolts using diameter and pitch. This is incomplete, as it does not specify the length. Further is is irrelevant since the JIS and ISO standards both specify 1.0 as the standard pitch for 6mm bolts.


Nope. A thread is described by two things diameter and number of
threads per unit. One can easily buy, for example, a 1/4" thread any
where from a quarter of an inch long, or so, to three feet, or more.

If you want to talk length then yes. A bolt should be long enough that
one complete thread will be extend past the nut. but there is not
maximum length, un less, or course it hits the other side of the
automobile.



It is not an 8-32, nor is it an 8mm. Both of these suggestions are ridiculous. It is an M6x18 and while fine m6 bolts do exist in 1.10 pitch they are not common and it is safe to say it is, in this application, almost undoubtedly a 1.0. You seem to have latched on the number 8 for some reason.

An M6X10 is the metric "functional equivalent" of a 1/4" UNC bolt.
It's dimensions and strength are very close. Being a metric bolt it
will be neither a Grade 5 nor a Grade 8. - it will be a class 8.8 or
10.9 or 12.9 An 8.8 is the metric "functional equivalent" to a grade 5


If you wish to be picky then let us be picky. There is no such thing
as a M6X10 thread, and even if it existed it would hardly be
equivalent to a 1/4-20 bolt. After all a 1 inch 1/4" bolt would have
20 threads on it while your imaginary M6X10 bolt would have only
(roughly) 4. Probably have to tighten the nut real tight to get it to
hold. I wonder can one even cut a 60 degree 10mm thread on a 6 mm rod?
  #27  
Old April 18th 17, 05:08 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 445
Default Selecting An Appropriate Bolt

On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 10:29:32 +0700, John B Slocomb
wrote:


If you want to talk length then yes. A bolt should be long enough that
one complete thread will be extend past the nut. but there is not
maximum length, un less, or course it hits the other side of the
automobile.



This is not true with AN hardware.AN hardware is spec'd by it's
diameter and grip length -and there is a stringent spec as to how much
thread must/may extend beyond the nut. You NEVER have threads within
the "grip"


It is not an 8-32, nor is it an 8mm. Both of these suggestions are ridiculous. It is an M6x18 and while fine m6 bolts do exist in 1.10 pitch they are not common and it is safe to say it is, in this application, almost undoubtedly a 1.0. You seem to have latched on the number 8 for some reason.

An M6X10 is the metric "functional equivalent" of a 1/4" UNC bolt.
It's dimensions and strength are very close. Being a metric bolt it
will be neither a Grade 5 nor a Grade 8. - it will be a class 8.8 or
10.9 or 12.9 An 8.8 is the metric "functional equivalent" to a grade 5


If you wish to be picky then let us be picky. There is no such thing
as a M6X10 thread, and even if it existed it would hardly be
equivalent to a 1/4-20 bolt. After all a 1 inch 1/4" bolt would have
20 threads on it while your imaginary M6X10 bolt would have only
(roughly) 4. Probably have to tighten the nut real tight to get it to
hold. I wonder can one even cut a 60 degree 10mm thread on a 6 mm rod?


Who's being picky??
  #29  
Old April 18th 17, 09:32 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 445
Default Selecting An Appropriate Bolt

On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 18:56:17 +0700, John B Slocomb
wrote:

On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 00:08:14 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 10:29:32 +0700, John B Slocomb
wrote:


If you want to talk length then yes. A bolt should be long enough that
one complete thread will be extend past the nut. but there is not
maximum length, un less, or course it hits the other side of the
automobile.



This is not true with AN hardware.AN hardware is spec'd by it's
diameter and grip length -and there is a stringent spec as to how much
thread must/may extend beyond the nut. You NEVER have threads within
the "grip"


Something must have changed with those AN people after the twenty
years I spent fixing their airplanes because the "one thread past the
nut" rule was certainly followed then. I've personally seen an Air
Force Inspector turn down an installation because the bolt didn't
protrude past the nut. (Which is likely why I remember it :-)

You didn't read my whole post Slocumb.

I was responding to the " but there is not
maximum length, un less, or course it hits the other side of the
automobile.

AN bolts need to be the EXACT length required. No more than 2 washers
allowes to adjust the protrusion of the thread through the nut.

If it doesn't protrude OR protrudes too much it fails. (at least here
in Canada)
  #30  
Old April 18th 17, 10:15 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doug Landau
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,282
Default Selecting An Appropriate Bolt

On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 8:29:53 PM UTC-7, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 17:51:39 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 13:52:56 -0700 (PDT), Doug Landau
wrote:

On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 4:15:34 AM UTC-7, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 13 Apr 2017 20:07:48 -0700, Art Shapiro
wrote:

I had a bit of an adventure when one of the two handlebar-fixing bolts
on my Deda Murex quilled stem decided to snap with a rather impressive
cracking noise. I somehow didn't crash and happened to be only about
seven miles from home. I got slowly home holding the stem with one hand
and one of the brake levers on the dangling handlebars with the other
hand. (This is not recommended to the reader.)

I see that the bolt is a M6x18 tapered cone head Allen cap screw with
pressed-on washer.

The stem is two months shy of 15 years old, but I don't want to have
this happen again. Looking on eBay, I see quite a few appropriate
bolts, but I'm not sure what is optimal. Can anyone help?

Everything seems to be Grade 5. Is that safe enough, or do I really
want to (somehow) find Grade 8?

Many are titanium. Is that a better choice than the more-common steel?
Or should I look for stainless steel? I am always happy to save a few
grams, but not if that's a significant risk.

Advice welcome!

Art

Grade 5 bolts should certainly be strong enough to hold the handle
bars on. But there are grades 8 or 9 that are stronger.

What makes you say this? Do you have some #s to back this statement up, or is it just your wild guess? Have you calculated the load on this part when when a rider of a given weight hits a pothole at a given speed, or ??? And more importantly, why skimp here?

As an aside your description is incorrect. It might be an U.S. size
which might be 8-32 or it might be metric in which case it would be
M8-1.25 or maybe M8-1.0. A U.S. #8 bolt is about half the thickness
of a 8mm bolt.

Huh?!? What are you on about? It is you who is incorrect not he. He said it was an M6x18. The x is pronounced "by". Put M6x18 in google and click images. You will see M6 bolts in an 18mm length. He chose to identify the bolt by it's diameter and length, just like the rest of the world does most of the time.


You are right. I'll change my reply to read "It might be an U.S. size
which might be 6-32 or it might be metric in which case it would be
M6-1.0. A U.S. #6 bolt is about half the thickness
of a 6mm bolt." Happy now?

Nope. Please return to the subject, and change your reply to answer the OP's question, which was "Everything seems to be Grade 5. Is that safe enough, or do I really want to (somehow) find Grade 8?"

This will require first identifying the most extreme condition that the bolt will experience as long as the rider can hold on and stay upright. The goal is to determine safe enough, and one is not going to be safe after riding at cruising speed into a wall or curb anyway. Hitting a pothole seems reasonable to me, but whatever. Then calculate the tension on the bolt in that situation, and then compare that to specification for grade 8.

But what is the value in stating "Grade 5 should certainly be strong enough to hold the bars on." ? So will a rubber band or some scotch tape, as long as one rides slow on smooth road.

But there are grades 8 or 9 that are stronger

Yes, the OP knows that, and had to to pose the question "Do I need grade 8?" in the first place.

You are describing bolts using diameter and pitch. This is incomplete, as it does not specify the length. Further is is irrelevant since the JIS and ISO standards both specify 1.0 as the standard pitch for 6mm bolts.


Nope. A thread is described by two things diameter and number of
threads per unit. One can easily buy, for example, a 1/4" thread any
where from a quarter of an inch long, or so, to three feet, or more.


We are not talking about a thread.

If you want to talk length then yes.

Again the OP was talking about grade; you faulted him for the way he described the bolt, and I am saying that a)he described it in the same way we all do most of the time, which is not flawed, and b)the quality of this method which you say is a flaw also exists in your claim of what is correct.

The fact is that a bolt has three identifying characteristics, and all must be expressed in order to avoid being incomplete, and at times, insufficient.
 




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