How Do These Airborne Specs Look?

On 22 Jul 2005 22:11:06 -0700, "NYC XYZ" wrote:


Hank Wirtz wrote:


You're paying attention to a 4-oz difference in weight, then
contemplating putting on a 4-lb saddle? (FWIW, my sister-in-law has that
saddle, and I guess she likes it, but it weighs more than her rear
wheel).

Holy Hell's Angels, that weighs more than my ass! Thanks for the
info...hmm...wonder if there are any ergonomic seats that are very
light?

"In some distant land it is possible that bicycle seats are made out of rainbow
and stuffed with cloud. In this world it's easier to just get used to something
hard."

Heres the deal, upright position puts more weight on your ass it also forces
your legs around the saddle at an awkward angle unless you set the seat too low.
Which puts yet more weight on your ass and kills your pedalling efficiency.
That big sofa-like saddle will require that you set it low.

There is no reason for a saddle like that to be light. It simply cannot be fast
anyway.

Low weight does not equal performance, except maybe psychologically. If
you want to shave grams, pee before you ride. That's about the
difference we're talking here. Performance is going to come from having
a good-fitting bike that you ride a whole bunch.

LOL -- of course!

But the fit being equal, how do the specs read to you? I don't know
why they bother with Shimano this and Bontrager that...do even the
"pros" know what it means?? Reads like mattress advertising....

Fit is never equal. As for all the brand names and model numbers, aren't you the
guy whining that the components might not be adequate to your demands. If you
want to be a weenie and fuss about that sort of thing, then get weenie about it
and fuss about that sort of thing.

I'm a fast rider...I can keep up with my messenger friend who races on
the weekends (though we've never actually raced per se, given our very
different bikes). I say this so that you know I'm not stuck on
components like they were magic or something. In this particular case,
my natural inclination is to get the flat-bar bike, but it seems like
the componentry on the drop-bar may be substantially better.

Better for WHAT? For WHOM? How good do the parts have to be. Shimano LX is
perfectly adequate for pounding through the mountains why won't is suffice for
you?

Like I say, fit is really the most important thing, and if you say you
want comfort and performance, you are not likely to get either from a
bike you can't test-ride first. Get yourself into a LBS and have them
find you something that is just right for you. They can swap out stems
and handlebars and seats (for a small upcharge usually, sometimes
they'll do even trades) and get it dialled in. Mail-order shops can't do
that for you.

Only problem is that these particular bikes sound like real sweet deals
and aren't available except online from the manufacturer.

You don't know enough about bikes to be buying that way. Bottom line.

What's the big deal with the "fit," though? An 18" frame is an
18"...and the seat posts adjust, etc. I really wanted to know what the
components of the drop-bar are like compared to those of the flat-bar.

No, an 18" mountain bike is not the same as an 18" comfort bike and not at all
like an 18" drop bar road bike.

The components are different to suit the fact that they are on entirely
different styles of bike. They are perfectly good components and work far better
than you ride.

As far as caliper brakes...why not? These aren't mountain bikes. They're
light enough and strong enough for 100% of the TDF field, and those guys
descend at 50 mph. The _only_ reason they don't use them on dirt bikes
is for tire clearance.

I thought the V-brakes stop better? I went from cantilever brakes on a
chromoly to the old Trek 7500 (the old one, not the current one -- why
did they change the frame geometry? It seems like everyone's hybrid
line has got the angled top tube now) with aluminum and V-brakes...cool
stuff.

How bad do you need to stop? Calipers work fine for what they are.

Sorry if you're getting dogpiled here, but you really should do some
test rides of both flat- and drop-bar bikes before you try to make your
decision based on Ti vs. Al or 18.2 vs. 18.6.

I'm sure I won't like drop-bars since I think the typical flat-bar
forces me to hunch over as it is! I always raise the headset (correct
term?) myself...upright means comfort!

Upright means slow and your ass hurts.

To answer your overall question, I'd go for the drop-bar bike, but
that's because I like drop bars, not because of its componentry or frame
material.

I suppose I could always raise the drop-bars too?

When hunched over, my back really becomes the rear suspension!

Use your legs.

What's it mean that the Airborne Thunderbolt comes in 10-speed (is that
right, only ten speeds????) "double" or 10-speed "triple"????

Ten cogs times whatever's at the front.

Ron

maxo wrote:


A quality steel frame weighs about a pound more than a ti or carbon frame.
Not insisting that you go with steel, but go with the frame that's got the
feel that you like, no matter what the material. Weight's a hell of a lot
more important when it comes to wheels.

Ah, another misconception clarified!

Thanks...now, how would anyone tell whether it's a "quality" steel
frame??

When you see a carbon or ti bike built up with an advertised spec of
something crazy like 15 pounds, it's due to all the components being the
lightest of of breed, not just the frame.

Oh yes, I totally realize that...that aluminum Thunderbolt is actually
slightly lighter than the titanium hybrid! Is titanium a better
material, generally?

I'm thinking of the Thunderbolt Triple now, even though my first
impluse was towards the titanium hybrid....

Gooserider wrote:


Aluminum can be SCARY light, and steel isn't 5-10 pounds heavier. Try 1-2
pounds.

So what's generally lighter, all other things (frame geometry, etc.)
being equal -- ti, carbon fiber, aluminum, or quality steel?

I'm sure you couldn't stand to lose 5 pounds off your body, right?

Hehehe...5'11" and 230 lbs. -- I was statistically overweight for my
age and height even at my best shape of 185 lbs.!

If you want to be comfortable, frame material is the least of your concern.

Well, part of comfort for me would be not carrying so many pounds,
whether portaging over stairs or climbing long New Jersey hills!

Tire size and frame geometry have far more to do with it.

Frame geometry affects weight??

That being said,
don't you wonder why so many touring bikes are STEEL? :-)

LOL -- didn't know they were!

Gooserider wrote:


Airborne is fine, if you don't mind buying a Chinese bicycle.

Indeed! Oddly enough, Airborne notes on its website that although the
frame comes from a Chinese aerospace and satellite company (?!), their
bikes still qualify under US Trade regulations as American Made!

I don't
support communist dictatorships.

This is so interesting...what Red China products do you do without, and
what do you substitute them with? Like everything's made there these
days.

I own three Taiwanese bikes, and an
American bike. The American bike is head and shoulders above the Taiwanese
quality wise, but it was far more expensive, too. I wouldn't buy the
Airborne, but that's purely on an ethical level. I'm sure the quality is
fine.

Are you sure those so-called "Taiwanese" bikes aren't perhaps made in
some mainland China factory? I understand everybody's got factories in
China.

Zoom wrote:


I don't mind buying Chinese bikes, I have three of them from this
manufacturer. Whether a dictatorship is communist or capitalist is all
the same to me.

Indeed! As GEN Patton said of the Soviets and Nazis -- "it's just like
the Democrats and Republicans!" Seriously...the country winds up going
to war whether you care for it or not.

My titanium mountain bike has taken a pounding and is still going strong.

Is titanium inherently stronger than aluminum or carbon fiber?

RonSonic wrote:


"In some distant land it is possible that bicycle seats are made out of rainbow
and stuffed with cloud. In this world it's easier to just get used to something
hard."

Ah, straight out of the '80s Charmin commercial!

Heres the deal, upright position puts more weight on your ass it also forces
your legs around the saddle at an awkward angle unless you set the seat too low.
Which puts yet more weight on your ass and kills your pedalling efficiency.
That big sofa-like saddle will require that you set it low.

There is no reason for a saddle like that to be light. It simply cannot be fast
anyway.

Ah, yes, conventional wisdom. That's why it's so hard for me to find a
"comfort bike" with "performance" specs!

Fit is never equal.

We're talking theory, here, and necessarily so, since there's no exact
way to quantify "comfort" and "fit," least not over usenet!

As for all the brand names and model numbers, aren't you the
guy whining that the components might not be adequate to your demands. If you
want to be a weenie and fuss about that sort of thing, then get weenie about it
and fuss about that sort of thing.

???

Better for WHAT? For WHOM? How good do the parts have to be. Shimano LX is
perfectly adequate for pounding through the mountains why won't is suffice for
you?

I'm asking the questions, and if you hear them, then I'm obviously
soliciting your opinion, as I haven't a clue what Shimano-this and
Bontrager-that means.

You don't know enough about bikes to be buying that way. Bottom line.

It's true I'm a noob when it comes to technical stuff like this, which
is why I'm asking here! Thing is, I do know I don't want some
pig-heavy Huffy from Walmart, if you take my meaning....

No, an 18" mountain bike is not the same as an 18" comfort bike and not at all
like an 18" drop bar road bike.

Which is why I'd noted earlier about "all other things being equal" --
an 18" comfort bike is not different in that respect than another 18"
comfort bike.

Of course, I'm asking about a hybrid and a road bike, and I know there
are differences...just wanted to pick your brains for any I may have
missed, noob that I am.

The components are different to suit the fact that they are on entirely
different styles of bike. They are perfectly good components and work far better
than you ride.

?

On my old Trek 7500, I must have put $500 worth of "work" into it over
about eight years...new cables, chains, cranksets, etc. I really wear
things out! But I can't imagine riding any other way -- don't see what
I might be doing wrong, if I'm prematurely wearing parts out somehow.

How bad do you need to stop? Calipers work fine for what they are.

Let's put it this way...I was riding like an NYC messenger in midtown
rush-hour traffic before I actually did it for a summer spell! =)

Upright means slow and your ass hurts.

That's intersting! I understand the "slow" part -- but I ain't racing,
just wanted as "fast" as possible given how I ride (which means
components, etc., to my way of thinking) -- though I don't see how
upright means up the ass, either. =) Do you mean "crotch" or
literally ass?? My ass rarely hurts...it's the crotch...ouch!

Use your legs.

I do, but it's the ol' suspenders-and-belt theory: two systems are
better than one. After all, I'm already using my legs anyway! And it
always gets to your back, in any case, eventually....

Ten cogs times whatever's at the front.

OIC!

Ron

Sorry for the noob questions, but thanks for your feedback!

wrote:


There are no small charges at an lbs. They will want $30 for a stem
you can get for$10 online. LBS have crappy return policies. Order
saddles online then you can return them . Or get a Brooks B17 and be in
bliss. I wouldnt hesitate to buy a bike online.

I must say, many of the NYC LBSes don't seem to be too "caring"...maybe
they're tired of the same damned noobish concerns day after day. =)

It's true there are no small charges...fixing a flat is at least ten
bucks! (I do understand they've got more expenses, though.) The other
thing with LBSes is that you deal with "personalities"...it's not like
you go to McDonald's and just get your hamburger (LOL -- wait, hear me
out, don't flame me!), you go and the person wants to know why the hell
anyone would want pickles in their hamburger, why don't you try the
healthier chicken sandwich, whatever...I find it hard to talk to LBS
folks 'cause if they're knowledgeable about bikes it's like they're
running for the Presidency or something! =D

I mean, hell, if I want to annoy someone with my stupdity, I'll come to
usenet and do it.

But the Brooks B17?? Looks like any ol' saddle!

You mean the Serfas RX doesn't look comfy to you??

Gooserider wrote:


The problem with buying Chinese goods is the very real possibility that
doing so supports our enemy.War with China over Taiwan is not out of the
question.

Of course, the other school of thought counters that this is precisely
why you must keep 'em engaged through trade. As their economy becomes
ever more dependent on foreign trade, etc., war becomes more and more
"impractical"...if Nixon hadn't gone to China, China might be just
another North Korea now.

The Chinese have a horrible human rights record, you know.

So do many US allies. That doesn't stop us from buying Saudi oil, etc.

People
there are routinely put in re-education camps, undergo forced sterilization,
are placed in forced labor camps, and face other such horrible acts.

I totally agree. I just don't think that I can have any more effect on
those issues than the US government, which has very limited effect on
issues it considers even more important.

Every
dollar you spend on Chinese goods goes to strengthen them both economically
and militarily. I would no more buy Chinese goods than I would buy conflict
diamonds.

Conflict diamonds? What are these, please?

"NYC XYZ" wrote in message
oups.com...

Gooserider wrote:


Aluminum can be SCARY light, and steel isn't 5-10 pounds heavier. Try 1-2
pounds.

So what's generally lighter, all other things (frame geometry, etc.)
being equal -- ti, carbon fiber, aluminum, or quality steel?

I'm sure you couldn't stand to lose 5 pounds off your body, right?

Hehehe...5'11" and 230 lbs. -- I was statistically overweight for my
age and height even at my best shape of 185 lbs.!

If you want to be comfortable, frame material is the least of your
concern.

Well, part of comfort for me would be not carrying so many pounds,
whether portaging over stairs or climbing long New Jersey hills!

Are you serious?
An extra 5 pounds on a rider plus bike all up weight of 230+20lb bike
weight i.e.250lb is 5/250 =2%!!
Have you ever stopped to consider why these bikes are being offered at such
a massive discount. There aren't any free lunches.
Also if you aren't familiar with -as you put it "Shimano this and Bontrager
that", why are we having this discussion?. You really need to buy a copy of
Bike 101 and read it. I don't understand your comments caliper brakes.
Virtually all performance road bikes have them including ALL the TdeF
iders -same thing with drop bars
I'm not trying to be rude but are you on the level -or are you trying
(-successfully!)to wind us up?

Cheers

Roy

On 22 Jul 2005 21:06:09 -0700, "NYC XYZ" wrote:


di wrote:


why would you want a titanium hybrid?


I'M SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ******GLAD****** YOU ASKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It seems like manufacturers also think there isn't a market out there
for folks who like their uprights (or upwrongs, as the 'bent crowd
likes to crow!) comfy as well as light and speedy.

I'm not into racing, but I do do a lot of bike riding for someone who's
not into racing! So I want to be comfortable...but that also means not
dealing with that extra five to ten pounds of a non-ti or carb-fi
bike....

How old are you? I'm imagining you can't touch your toes and that you
haven't ridden a bike for many years.

Maybe you need to examine why you're uncomfortable.

I switched from a straight bar bike to one with drops. My saddle and the
top of the drop bar are the same height (not the typical 4" differenence in
height - higher saddle, lower bars). I just got a longer stem that put them
at the same height.

Straight bar bikes are uncomfortable for the following reasons:

1. Sitting upright puts more weight on the posterior/saddle. This can be
very uncomfortable after 20 miles.
2. The hand spacing on straight bar bikes puts your hands further apart
then riding a drop bar bike on the tops - this cranks your wrists to an
unnatural angle.
3. Straight bar bikes only have one or two hand positions - and
uncomfortable ones at that. Drop bar bikes have at least four positions.
4. Sitting upright and holding the straight part of the bar on my drop bar
puts me in a more upright position than my straight bar bike.
5. When you improve your riding you will naturally want to be more
stretched out on the bike. This will cause most people to feel the
handlebars are too close and they'll end up trying a thumbless grip or bar
ends to move the hands and arms further forward.

So my suggestion to you is to try the drop bar bike but insist they put a
taller stem on the bike to raise your handlebars to be level with the seat.

When you sit on this bike imagine where your weight is going when riding.
It should be 33% on your butt, 33% on the pedals and 33% on your
handlebars. You do not want to have 70% of your weight on the saddle, iow.

Look at the width of your grip and your arms and see how straight your
wrists are when gripping the top of the drop bar - compare to the obtuse
angle of your wrists on the straight bar.

Second, do some flexibility work after each ride while you're still
sweating and warm. Get to the point where you can get in a tuck - touch
your toes and if possible touch your forehead to your knees with leg
locked.

If, on the other hand you've got a logic-tight compartment on this subject
- do whatever the hell you want. ;-)

I'm seriously doubting that you, sitting upright worried about 'comfort'
are able to ride as fast as your bike messenger friend on a drop bar racing
bike, btw.

jj

I CAN'T be the only one who reasons this way...!

I went to so many bike shops around NYC, and they all gave me that WTF
stare...but it makes perfect sense to me! Why is the world so
black-and-white anyway?? I like comfort, but I also like performance!

When I lean more towards comfort (actually, when I have more cash) I'll
get a recumbent bike...for now, I'm still leaning towards out-and-out
performance -- but comfort's still a main, if not *the* main, factor!