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Lithium Ion vs NiMh battery



 
 
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  #31  
Old October 23rd 17, 10:05 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Ian Field
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Posts: 250
Default Lithium Ion vs NiMh battery



wrote in message
...
On Monday, October 23, 2017 at 11:01:42 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 10/23/2017 10:53 AM, Ian Field wrote:

snip

I don't get it! - I use a simple DIY charger and never had an accident.
Commercial manufacturers seem intent on comic people cartwheeling
through the air.


If you're using protected cells you won't have any problem.

It's also very different when you're charging two cells in series at
8.4V or one cell at 4.2V. You already have two levels of protection, the
voltage is correct and the PCB in the battery doesn't let the voltage
exceed 4.2V.

At work, we had been charging unprotected cells with a variable power
supply at 8.4V. This worked just fine. Except when we had a product that
used a single cell and the tech hooked it up to the 8.4V--quite a mess
when it exploded and caught fire on the bench.

Commercial manufacturers are doing high-rate charging while monitoring
temperature. They are also often charging in parallel but discharging in
series, or a in series-parallel combination.


All of my speedos use 2032 cells. I used to just buy a card of them and
insert new ones. Then I realized that they are Li-ion. Do these things
charge up again?


Last one I tried charging, forced electrolyte past the seal - apparently, I
was lucky it didn't go exothermic.

maybe there are rechargeable versions - but I've not seen any advertised.

Ads
  #32  
Old October 23rd 17, 10:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 3,345
Default Lithium Ion vs NiMh battery

On Monday, October 23, 2017 at 2:05:20 PM UTC-7, Ian Field wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Monday, October 23, 2017 at 11:01:42 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 10/23/2017 10:53 AM, Ian Field wrote:

snip

I don't get it! - I use a simple DIY charger and never had an accident.
Commercial manufacturers seem intent on comic people cartwheeling
through the air.

If you're using protected cells you won't have any problem.

It's also very different when you're charging two cells in series at
8.4V or one cell at 4.2V. You already have two levels of protection, the
voltage is correct and the PCB in the battery doesn't let the voltage
exceed 4.2V.

At work, we had been charging unprotected cells with a variable power
supply at 8.4V. This worked just fine. Except when we had a product that
used a single cell and the tech hooked it up to the 8.4V--quite a mess
when it exploded and caught fire on the bench.

Commercial manufacturers are doing high-rate charging while monitoring
temperature. They are also often charging in parallel but discharging in
series, or a in series-parallel combination.


All of my speedos use 2032 cells. I used to just buy a card of them and
insert new ones. Then I realized that they are Li-ion. Do these things
charge up again?


Last one I tried charging, forced electrolyte past the seal - apparently, I
was lucky it didn't go exothermic.

maybe there are rechargeable versions - but I've not seen any advertised.


Well, if you look on Amazon they sell 2032 rechargers. Since they're cheap I'll give one a try with careful supervision.
  #33  
Old October 23rd 17, 11:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default Lithium Ion vs NiMh battery

On 10/23/2017 2:05 PM, Ian Field wrote:


wrote in message
...
On Monday, October 23, 2017 at 11:01:42 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 10/23/2017 10:53 AM, Ian Field wrote:

snip

I don't get it! - I use a simple DIY charger and never had an
accident.
Commercial manufacturers seem intent on comic people cartwheeling
through the air.

If you're using protected cells you won't have any problem.

It's also very different when you're charging two cells in series at
8.4V or one cell at 4.2V. You already have two levels of protection, the
voltage is correct and the PCB in the battery doesn't let the voltage
exceed 4.2V.

At work, we had been charging unprotected cells with a variable power
supply at 8.4V. This worked just fine. Except when we had a product that
used a single cell and the tech hooked it up to the 8.4V--quite a mess
when it exploded and caught fire on the bench.

Commercial manufacturers are doing high-rate charging while monitoring
temperature. They are also often charging in parallel but discharging in
series, or a in series-parallel combination.


All of my speedos use 2032 cells. I used to just buy a card of them
and insert new ones. Then I realized that they are Li-ion. Do these
things charge up again?


Last one I tried charging, forced electrolyte past the seal -
apparently, I was lucky it didn't go exothermic.

maybe there are rechargeable versions - but I've not seen any advertised.


Not rechargeable.

But I recall the first Cateye Computer with the solar cell on it used
SR44R rechargeable coin cells, but buying replacements was difficult.
  #34  
Old October 24th 17, 04:14 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
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Posts: 4,018
Default Lithium Ion vs NiMh battery

On Mon, 23 Oct 2017 13:49:03 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

All of my speedos use 2032 cells. I used to just buy
a card of them and insert new ones. Then I realized
that they are Li-ion. Do these things charge up again?


No. The common CR2032 Lithium (not Lithium-Ion) cell is NOT
rechargeable. However, you can buy an ML2032 cell that is
rechargeable in a suitable charger.
http://www.maxell.com.tw/images/uploads/2015/05/ML2032_DataSheet_table.pdf
Be careful when shopping. Some of the ML2032 cells for sale on eBay
are counterfeits or reworked CR2032. Real ML2032 cells are
considerably more expensive than CR2032. For example:
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA7324T45066
I bought some of these:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-Maxell-ML2032-Rechargeable-2032-3V-CMOS-Backup-Battery-/110860774466
which turned out to be genuine.

The chargers are quite cheap:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=ml2032+charger
If you're going to make your own charger (such as a solar charger),
note that the ML2032 is rated at 2ma maximum charging current:
http://www.maxell.com.tw/images/uploads/2015/05/ML_Warnings_11e.pdf



--
Jeff Liebermann

150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #36  
Old October 24th 17, 05:44 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Posts: 9,477
Default Lithium Ion vs NiMh battery

On 10/23/2017 8:36 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

In other words, the rechargeable ML2032 will only last about 1/4th the
time of the original CR2032 before it needs a recharge and you'll need
to check the current drain of your cycling computah.


I recall when the ATX standard came out with +5V standby available from
the supply even when the computer was off. This allowed the use of 2032
cells instead of those large Tadiran batteries with the cable, since
unless there was a power failure the CMOS RAM would be powered from the
power supply, not the battery, so only a tiny battery was necessary.

What the ATX designers didn't take into account was that a lot of people
plug computers into a power strip and turn off the power strip after
they shut down the computer. So those 2032 cells were discharging way
too fast.

UL required double protection to ensure that the +5V Standby would not
be trying to charge the 2032 cell. At the company I worked for, we put
the protection diodes inside our SuperI/O chip and UL insisted on seeing
our chip design files so we could prove to them that the diodes were there.
  #37  
Old October 24th 17, 03:38 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,345
Default Lithium Ion vs NiMh battery

On Monday, October 23, 2017 at 8:14:13 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 23 Oct 2017 13:49:03 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

All of my speedos use 2032 cells. I used to just buy
a card of them and insert new ones. Then I realized
that they are Li-ion. Do these things charge up again?


No. The common CR2032 Lithium (not Lithium-Ion) cell is NOT
rechargeable. However, you can buy an ML2032 cell that is
rechargeable in a suitable charger.
http://www.maxell.com.tw/images/uploads/2015/05/ML2032_DataSheet_table.pdf
Be careful when shopping. Some of the ML2032 cells for sale on eBay
are counterfeits or reworked CR2032. Real ML2032 cells are
considerably more expensive than CR2032. For example:
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA7324T45066
I bought some of these:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-Maxell-ML2032-Rechargeable-2032-3V-CMOS-Backup-Battery-/110860774466
which turned out to be genuine.

The chargers are quite cheap:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=ml2032+charger
If you're going to make your own charger (such as a solar charger),
note that the ML2032 is rated at 2ma maximum charging current:
http://www.maxell.com.tw/images/uploads/2015/05/ML_Warnings_11e.pdf


Thanks Jeff. Do you know what the energy storage of both are?
  #38  
Old October 24th 17, 04:29 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Lithium Ion vs NiMh battery

On 10/23/2017 11:14 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 23 Oct 2017 13:49:03 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

All of my speedos use 2032 cells. I used to just buy
a card of them and insert new ones. Then I realized
that they are Li-ion. Do these things charge up again?


No. The common CR2032 Lithium (not Lithium-Ion) cell is NOT
rechargeable. However, you can buy an ML2032 cell that is
rechargeable in a suitable charger.
http://www.maxell.com.tw/images/uploads/2015/05/ML2032_DataSheet_table.pdf
Be careful when shopping. Some of the ML2032 cells for sale on eBay
are counterfeits or reworked CR2032. Real ML2032 cells are
considerably more expensive than CR2032. For example:
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA7324T45066
I bought some of these:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-Maxell-ML2032-Rechargeable-2032-3V-CMOS-Backup-Battery-/110860774466
which turned out to be genuine.

The chargers are quite cheap:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=ml2032+charger
If you're going to make your own charger (such as a solar charger),
note that the ML2032 is rated at 2ma maximum charging current:
http://www.maxell.com.tw/images/uploads/2015/05/ML_Warnings_11e.pdf


Why would someone bother trying to recharge a cyclometer's CR2032? New
CR2032 batteries cost maybe $2 each. I bought some even cheaper in bulk,
and I've given them away to friends.

Buying a special 2032 charger sounds as sensible as buying a special
machine to re-sharpen your toothpicks.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #39  
Old October 24th 17, 05:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default Lithium Ion vs NiMh battery

On Tue, 24 Oct 2017 07:38:07 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Monday, October 23, 2017 at 8:14:13 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 23 Oct 2017 13:49:03 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

All of my speedos use 2032 cells. I used to just buy
a card of them and insert new ones. Then I realized
that they are Li-ion. Do these things charge up again?


No. The common CR2032 Lithium (not Lithium-Ion) cell is NOT
rechargeable. However, you can buy an ML2032 cell that is
rechargeable in a suitable charger.
http://www.maxell.com.tw/images/uploads/2015/05/ML2032_DataSheet_table.pdf
Be careful when shopping. Some of the ML2032 cells for sale on eBay
are counterfeits or reworked CR2032. Real ML2032 cells are
considerably more expensive than CR2032. For example:
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA7324T45066
I bought some of these:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-Maxell-ML2032-Rechargeable-2032-3V-CMOS-Backup-Battery-/110860774466
which turned out to be genuine.

The chargers are quite cheap:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=ml2032+charger
If you're going to make your own charger (such as a solar charger),
note that the ML2032 is rated at 2ma maximum charging current:
http://www.maxell.com.tw/images/uploads/2015/05/ML_Warnings_11e.pdf


Thanks Jeff. Do you know what the energy storage of both are?


Energy is watt-hrs = volts*amps*hrs.
One Joule = 1 watt-second but we won't need that here.

Both batteries are rated at 3.0 volts,
so the CR2032 cell is:
3V * 250 ma-hr = 750 milliwatt-hours = 0.75 watt-hours
and the ML2032 is:
3V * 65 ma-hr = 195 milliwatt-hours = 0.195 watt-hours
The numbers are approximate at the battery capacity will vary with the
load. The discharge curves on the two Maxell spec sheets should give
more accurate numbers once the current drain of your bicycle computah
is known. If you give me a number for how long the CR2032 battery
lasts, I can work backwards and calculate the average current drain.

However, if you want to avoid the problem, and just happen to have a
single cell LiIon powered headlight next to the bicycle computah, you
could just run two wires from the headlight battery to the computah
for power. You would need to install some kind of voltage drop in
order to reduce the 4.2V maximum voltage from the headlight battery,
to something the computah can handle, which is under 3.2V. Two 1N4001
silicon diodes in series should drop the voltage by 1.2V. Extra
credit for mounting the computer on top of the bicycle light to hide
the wires.


--
Jeff Liebermann

150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #40  
Old October 24th 17, 05:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default Lithium Ion vs NiMh battery

On Mon, 23 Oct 2017 21:44:10 -0700, sms
wrote:

What the ATX designers didn't take into account was that a lot of people
plug computers into a power strip and turn off the power strip after
they shut down the computer. So those 2032 cells were discharging way
too fast.


Things have improved. I have quite a few computers and motherboards
in my office with CR2032 cells installed, but no power applied. Before
delivering anything, I always check the voltage. Anything under 2.9V
gets replaced with a new cell. My guess(tm) is that most of these
last at least 3 years and often longer with no power applied.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
 




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