"Choosing Lights for Your Bicycle: Ten No-Compromise Requirements"article

"T0m $herman" writes:

On 8/14/2013 2:34 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 8/14/2013 2:37 PM, sms wrote:
On 8/14/2013 11:22 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

I rie my road bike quite some distance most days. I use it for
transportation and I *"DO NOT WANT OR REQUIRE A HUB DYNAMO ON IT"* nor
would I want to pay the extra $ for something I neither want or need.
I'm sure that there are many other "Transportation" bicyclist who also
do not need or want any lighting system on their bike.

This is true. However it might be nice if bicycle manufacturers offered
the option to substitute a dynamo hub wheel for a non-dynamo wheel at
the time of purchase, for a nominal charge, for those that do want it;
at least on models that would be likely to be used for transportational
cycling.

In the U.S., almost no one uses dynamo lights and that's unlikely to
change. The expense of a dynamo hub wheel, the lack of availability of
proper headlights, and the relatively inexpensive battery powered lights
that provide far greater illumination and have the proper functions and
beam shape

snip

Show me ONE. Just ONE battery light with "proper functions and beam
shape" regardless of price that is available on the shelves at your LBS
("your LBS" being any LBS in the USA.)

I will bet you $100 that YOU CAN'T.


Hmm...

Proper functions - for a bicycle headlight? Seems to me that
would be forward illumination and visible light source (the
law here defines the latter as visible from ~500 feet, IIRC).
Surely that cannot be your disagreement.

Which leaves "beam shape". Hmmm... "Proper". Hmmmm...

A hundred bucks! Really?

It just seems inconceivable to me - what with *all* the
battery lights in use and for sale in the USA - that *none*
are properly designed or built.

Why do you keep posting complete nonsense?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_(psychology)

It is truly tiresome.

Probably because he is bat-guano crazy.

On Saturday, August 17, 2013 8:24:01 AM UTC-7, Dan wrote:
"T0m $herman" writes:



On 8/14/2013 2:34 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:

On 8/14/2013 2:37 PM, sms wrote:

On 8/14/2013 11:22 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:



I rie my road bike quite some distance most days. I use it for

transportation and I *"DO NOT WANT OR REQUIRE A HUB DYNAMO ON IT"* nor

would I want to pay the extra $ for something I neither want or need..

I'm sure that there are many other "Transportation" bicyclist who also

do not need or want any lighting system on their bike.



This is true. However it might be nice if bicycle manufacturers offered

the option to substitute a dynamo hub wheel for a non-dynamo wheel at

the time of purchase, for a nominal charge, for those that do want it;

at least on models that would be likely to be used for transportational

cycling.



In the U.S., almost no one uses dynamo lights and that's unlikely to

change. The expense of a dynamo hub wheel, the lack of availability of

proper headlights, and the relatively inexpensive battery powered lights

that provide far greater illumination and have the proper functions and

beam shape



snip



Show me ONE. Just ONE battery light with "proper functions and beam

shape" regardless of price that is available on the shelves at your LBS

("your LBS" being any LBS in the USA.)



I will bet you $100 that YOU CAN'T.





Hmm...



Proper functions - for a bicycle headlight? Seems to me that

would be forward illumination and visible light source (the

law here defines the latter as visible from ~500 feet, IIRC).

Surely that cannot be your disagreement.



Which leaves "beam shape". Hmmm... "Proper". Hmmmm...



A hundred bucks! Really?



It just seems inconceivable to me - what with *all* the

battery lights in use and for sale in the USA - that *none*

are properly designed or built.


What is "proper?" It's like arguing about gearing -- what is good for someone in Amsterdam riding down a lighted bicycle lane maybe woefully inadequate for someone in a hilly suburban area in a rainstorm. I count on light spew when riding many of my routes home, and some Euro-approved clipped beam set-up would not be optimal. Also, the dire predictions of bicycle lights blinding motorists have not materialized, AFAIK - and a lot of people in PDX ride with powerful lights. It's only the 1,000 lumen retina burners that have caused me any problems, and those are a rarity. Admittedly, though, you can get over-kill.



-- Jay Beattie.

On 8/17/2013 8:52 AM, Jay Beattie wrote:

snip

What is "proper?" It's like arguing about gearing -- what is good for someone in Amsterdam riding down a lighted bicycle lane maybe woefully inadequate for someone in a hilly suburban area in a rainstorm. I count on light spew when riding many of my routes home, and some Euro-approved clipped beam set-up would not be optimal. Also, the dire predictions of bicycle lights blinding motorists have not materialized, AFAIK - and a lot of people in PDX ride with powerful lights. It's only the 1,000 lumen retina burners that have caused me any problems, and those are a rarity. Admittedly, though, you can get over-kill.

+1.

1. No one is proposing multi-thousands of lumens front lights.

2. There is no evidence of bicycle lights blinding motorists. This
almost sounds like one of Frank's fabricated scenarios that he makes up
so he has something to rail against. Arguing against a false premise
that no one ever stated seems to be a popular debate technique on Usenet
(and in politics).

3. There seems to be a fear in some cyclist's heads that their number
one obligation is to avoid, at all costs, doing anything that might
somehow offend a motorist, even if the cyclist is doing nothing wrong or
illegal.

4. Some cyclists seem to think that cycling conditions are the same in
every country so that what works in Germany or the Netherlands will
automatically be optimal everywhere else as well. Some cyclists are
determined to put themselves into more danger by obstinately refusing to
recognize this fact.

"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and
conscientious stupidity."
Martin Luther King, Jr.

On 8/15/2013 9:35 PM, A. Muzi wrote:
(I assumed everyone who happens to be here, citizen or not, and all
kinds of bicycles. No idea if population figures for Germany include
aliens legal or otherwise, I'm not claiming any deep research or
statistical rigor.)

Last time I checked (2012), there were approximately 80 million people
living in Germany, and about 72 million citizens. Many of those 8
million are Turks with valid work permits.

--
T0m $herm@n

On 8/15/2013 12:17 AM, Martin Τrautmann wrote:
On Wed, 14 Aug 2013 11:37:24 -0700, sms wrote:
BTW, on this mornings outbound ride _every_ other cyclist I encountered
had LED front flashing lights. Looks like intelligence is winning out
over obstinance, at least in Silicon Valley. Education seems to be working.

Flashing lights do not sound like intelligence to me.
I think a permanent light is much more reasonable.

Scharf is not reasonable.

On the other hand I do not know the US street light scenes that well.
But some of the German federal states will use the US police siren sound
from now on - and cars will change from former green-white over current
blue-silver to blue-silver with neon yellow.

Goodbye cucumber sandwiches.

Just a matter of time until neon vests will be obligatory for cycling in
Germany, too...

With built in flashing LEDs:
http://a248.e.akamai.net/origin-cdn.volusion.com/qjjhm.sttcm/v/vspfiles/photos/GG-GLO-12LED-2.gif?1372745327.

--
T0m $herm@n

Martin Τrautmann writes:

On Wed, 14 Aug 2013 11:37:24 -0700, sms wrote:
BTW, on this mornings outbound ride _every_ other cyclist I encountered
had LED front flashing lights. Looks like intelligence is winning out
over obstinance, at least in Silicon Valley. Education seems to be working.

Flashing lights do not sound like intelligence to me.
I think a permanent light is much more reasonable.


In most of the US, transportation bicyclists are an anomoly -
unexpected by motorists - and often do not receive attention
/ notice (respect is another matter once noticed).

A solid on light makes sense, but a flashing light can even
more effectively gain notice / attention.

That in itself does not make a flashing light better than a
solid one, but factor the tremendously extended battery run
time, and the rationale is there.

snip

On 8/13/2013 11:45 AM, sms wrote:
On 8/13/2013 8:17 AM, Martin Τrautmann wrote:
On Tue, 13 Aug 2013 06:38:06 -0700, sms wrote:
But bicycle "manufacturers" (most bicycle companies contract out all
manufacturing) in the U.S. would never agree to add even $5 worth of
battery powered lighting, let alone $10 worth of dynamo powered
lighting. Can you imagine Walmart agreeing to a $15 increase in the
wholesale cost of the $50 (retail) bicycles they sell?.

Of course, if they could make feel that this would be a big enhancement
in security.

Why do people pay $50 for helmets?

Most people don't. You'd have difficulty finding a $50 helmet anywhere
but an LBS that sells designer helmets. Helmets generally cost from
$15-30 in stores like Costco, Walmart, Target, etc., and even an LBS
will have them at the upper end of the $15-30 range.

Because they are buying a lid that might actually provide some
protection, unlike the typical foam bicycle hat:
http://www.pocsports.com/en/product/1391/trabec-race-mips.

--
T0m $herm@n

On 8/17/2013 12:15 PM, Dan wrote:

snip

In most of the US, transportation bicyclists are an anomoly -
unexpected by motorists - and often do not receive attention
/ notice (respect is another matter once noticed).

A solid on light makes sense, but a flashing light can even
more effectively gain notice / attention.

That in itself does not make a flashing light better than a
solid one, but factor the tremendously extended battery run
time, and the rationale is there.

Swap those.

The increased conspicuity does, in itself, make a flashing light better
than a solid one.

The increased battery run time is a plus, but not a huge factor.

On Sat, 17 Aug 2013 18:50:56 +0100, Phil W Lee
wrote:

John B. considered Fri, 16 Aug 2013 18:07:20
+0700 the perfect time to write:

On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 02:49:43 +0100, Phil W Lee
wrote:

John B. considered Thu, 15 Aug 2013 18:46:54
+0700 the perfect time to write:

On Thu, 15 Aug 2013 07:31:56 +0100, Phil W Lee
wrote:

John B. considered Thu, 15 Aug 2013 08:40:07
+0700 the perfect time to write:

On Wed, 14 Aug 2013 22:09:26 +0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

Lou Holtman wrote:
Duane wrote:
On 8/14/2013 2:37 PM, sms wrote:
On 8/14/2013 11:22 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

I rie my road bike quite some distance most days. I use it for
transportation and I *"DO NOT WANT OR REQUIRE A HUB DYNAMO ON IT"* nor
would I want to pay the extra $ for something I neither want or need.
I'm sure that there are many other "Transportation" bicyclist who also
do not need or want any lighting system on their bike.

This is true. However it might be nice if bicycle manufacturers offered
the option to substitute a dynamo hub wheel for a non-dynamo wheel at
the time of purchase, for a nominal charge, for those that do want it;
at least on models that would be likely to be used for transportational
cycling.


The problem is that most of us don't buy bikes from manufacturers. If
the retail outlets want to offer that option I don't have a problem with
that. Choice is a good thing. Otherwise, I'm with Sir R, here. Don't
need it and don't want it. My lights are in my backpack on my commute
unless I need them. If I'm off on a road ride on the weekend, they're
still in my backpack but it's in the closet. I certainly don't want
anything built into my bike.

Where I have a problem is if I'm forced to use something that I don't
need or want, especially not based on how someone else thinks I should use my bike.


Do you really think the Germans and we, the Dutch, have dynohubs on our
roadbikes, Atb's or crossbikes? We only think it is stupid to have battery
powered lights on bikes which are regularly used when it is dark. Think of
a family with three kids going to school on bike all with battery powered
lights? You gotta be kidding.


No I don't think that but some people here are calling for bikes to be
"manufactured" with hub dynamos or for them to be mandated. I can't see the
government making the distinction between a road bike and a commuter.

I would guess that if bicycles were sold with a mandated dyno-hub and
lights meeting some sort of "standard" there would be a huge outcry
from the cycling brotherhood.

We might ask A Muzi what he estimates a mandated lighting system might
add to the price of a bike, but my guess would be that if it was a
matter of government fiat, with manufacturers required to pass some
sort of government inspection and gain government approval together
with penalties for those who sold non-approved lighting, it would not
be cheap.

Then too, if one has a mandated requirement then one must have some
sort of inspection function to ensure that "unsafe" systems are not
being used, and of course, some sort of documentation that the
inspection had been passed......

It's easy to find the illegal ones.
They trail swearing and threats of justified violence in their wake.

I'm betting that A Muzzi would LOVE to see cycle sales in the US reach
German levels.

I believe that bike sales in the U.S. are considerably higher, both in
volume and dollar value, then German sales.

Per capita?

I'd be very very surprised.

"Both in volume and dollar value"
:-)

Which proves only that you can't sell anything to a population you
don't have

It's the rate (per capita) that matters, not the total figure.

Err... You wrote, "I'm betting that A Muzzi would LOVE to see cycle
sales in the US reach German levels." I mentioned volume in units and
dollars. You then changed the tune to per capita.

My guess that Muzzi calculates his annual profit and loss in dollars
and cents. Not per capita sales.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 17 Aug 2013 12:15:26 -0700, Dan
wrote:

Martin ?rautmann writes:

On Wed, 14 Aug 2013 11:37:24 -0700, sms wrote:
BTW, on this mornings outbound ride _every_ other cyclist I encountered
had LED front flashing lights. Looks like intelligence is winning out
over obstinance, at least in Silicon Valley. Education seems to be working.

Flashing lights do not sound like intelligence to me.
I think a permanent light is much more reasonable.


In most of the US, transportation bicyclists are an anomoly -
unexpected by motorists - and often do not receive attention
/ notice (respect is another matter once noticed).

A solid on light makes sense, but a flashing light can even
more effectively gain notice / attention.

That in itself does not make a flashing light better than a
solid one, but factor the tremendously extended battery run
time, and the rationale is there.

snip

Since this thread started I've been paying more attention to bike
lights I see on my rides. Now, granted that I live in a tropical
country, but from what I see and from a "Hey, look I'm here"
viewpoint, almost any light helps make the bike more visible in low
light conditions but are essentially useless in bright sunlight, and
that in low light conditions - early in the morning or evening or in
overcast conditions - flashing lights are far more noticeable.

After dark, in city traffic, I have yet to see a bicycle light, front
or rear, that made the bike particularly noticeable, as all of the
other traffic have far larger and brighter lights.

It might also be noted that with all the discussion of generators and
batteries that most small motorcycles have at least 50 watts of
headlight and larger motorcycles and cars, trucks, usually have 100
watt or more. (A Honda Goldwing has four 50 watt headlights :-)

While one might compare a bicycle light with another bicycle light if
one compares it with all the other highway users' lights bike lights
are all very feeble indeed.

--
Cheers,

John B.