TdF and recumbents

Carl Sundquist wrote:

"Jon Bendtsen" wrote in message
...
Carl Sundquist wrote:
"Jon Bendtsen" wrote in message
...
What is the _unfaired_ recumbent hour record?
I think it was 29.76 Miles, i saw a youtube of it today.
Which seems a little slower than the UCI hour record, but
maybe that is because the rider is not the same?
Ok. Now we're getting somewhere. I'd say that the unfaired
recumbent hour record is pretty darn remarkable. Did any noteworthy
rider do it?
I dont know, look him up


I looked on the IHPVA site before I asked the question. The only
(recognized) hour record that looks to possibly be an unfaired
recumbent was set in 1938 at 31.4 mph. Quite a remarkable time if
that was the case. Help me out here a little bit.

This is were i looked.

http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wrra/records.asp


JonB

Thanks. I did a quick search on Sean Costin. It's clear that he loves
building HPV/recumbents and likely spends more time tinkering with them
than trying to maximize his fitness.

He could be rocket scientist:
http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/costin/seancostin.htm.

Nothing wrong with that at all and
as I said, pretty darn remarkable. And judging from the looks, given
equal wattage from riders his would be able to go 20 % faster than an
upright (on a flat, wind protected surface ;-)

Sean's Monkey Hand bicycle had him almost completely flat on his back. I
do recall him riding it on the Udder Century invitational ride a few
years back before getting the Forte':
http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/costin/forte_bike.htm.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”

"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...
Carl Sundquist wrote:

"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
On Jul 29, 7:15 am, "Edward Dolan" wrote:

There is no recumbent that is 20% faster than an upright on the flats
everything else being equal. At best, it is possible that a recumbent
will
be only ever so slightly faster than an upright on the flats, but even
that
is debatable. What is not debatable is how freaking slow they are
climbing
hills, even small hills. Case closed as far as I am concerned.

I guess that sound is the my point whizzing over you head

Ed was never one to let things like mere facts confuse him...

However, if he bothered to look at the UCI hour record and the IHPVA
hour record he'd find a lot more than 20% difference.

Pete.

Now _that's_ mixing apples and oranges.

What is the _unfaired_ recumbent hour record?

Sean Costin rode 47.89 km in one hour on an unfaired Velokraft NoCom,
which is not too far off the 49.431 km Merckx hour or the UCI legal
bicycle record of Ondřej Sosenka at 49.70 km.

See my other post.


The non-UCI legal upright hour record is by Chris Boardman at 56.375 km,
on a bicycle that could not be safely ridden on the street, unlike the
NoCom, which several people ride on the roads, including urban and
suburban Chicagoland.

People actually ride those things on the street? What's the visibility like,
either seeing or being seen? How does it handle potholes? Does it have a
suspension? For all the advocates of recumbents regarding comfort, is this
the vehicle they have in mind? I'm not anti recumbent (would have loved to
have had a Counterpoint Opus/ViewPoint) but without personally trying this
rig, I question it's daily practicality. The Obree Superman style bike,
while a step further than an aerobar setup, was specifically designed to
operate on a track. But there is no reason the same handlebar setup couldn't
have been applied to a road bicycle. While I don't think I would probably
recommend riding the Superman handlebar setup within The Loop areas, I think
it would be no less safe than triathletes riding in their aerobar positions
in suburban Chicagoland.


Needless to say, the UCI records were set by world class cyclists. I have
met Sean and I doubt he would be insulted if I said while he is one of the
better amateur recumbent racers in the US, he is not a world class rider.
So, with equal riders, we are indeed comparing apples and oranges.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.�

"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...
Edward Dolan wrote:
[...]
All this blather about racing is for the birds. A true cyclist will want
to do extended tours. An organized group tour is best because it is a
royal pain in the ass to have to carry your own camping gear on a bike.

Racing discussion may be for the birds [1], but it is the topic of this
thread.

The topic has wandered thanks to me. That is what I am here for.

For heaven's sakes, take a couple of weeks off and do a bike tour. I
think you would enjoy GRABAAWR in Wisconsin. That is in early July. There
is one in North Dakota, CANDISC, that takes place in early August. If you
really want to do an easy bike tour, there is one in Ohio known as GOBA
in early June that is super friendly. I have done all of these rides many
times and I have always enjoyed them immensely.

Well, I will be eligible for full retirement in 32 years.

So work yourself to death. Who cares?

Trust me on this, life is too god damn short to spend all of it working
at a freaking job. Take some time off and do something that you think you
would really enjoy - like bike touring!

Some of my co-workers were just given permanent time off from their jobs.
Not a good situation, unless like Dolan you can live off the fruits of
your parent's labors.

**** it! Just get another job. You do not have a proper contempt for work,
something I was born with.

Tom Sherman has apparently been able to fit cycling into his life (just
barely), but that should only be the beginning. He is single, a civil
engineer with a good job, yet he can't manage a measly 2 week vacation. Just
how freaking stupid can one get! Instead, he has elected to fritter his life
away on nonsense as if his work amounts to anything. Folks, you can lead an
ass to water, but you can't make it drink.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

"Carl Sundquist" wrote in message
...

What is the _unfaired_ recumbent hour record?

Sean Costin rode 47.89 km in one hour on an unfaired Velokraft NoCom,
which is not too far off the 49.431 km Merckx hour or the UCI legal
bicycle record of Ondřej Sosenka at 49.70 km.

BTW, Costin's flying 200 M time is very impressive, especially at
Northbrook.

Carl Sundquist wrote:

"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...
Carl Sundquist wrote:

"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
On Jul 29, 7:15 am, "Edward Dolan" wrote:

There is no recumbent that is 20% faster than an upright on the flats
everything else being equal. At best, it is possible that a
recumbent will
be only ever so slightly faster than an upright on the flats, but
even that
is debatable. What is not debatable is how freaking slow they are
climbing
hills, even small hills. Case closed as far as I am concerned.

I guess that sound is the my point whizzing over you head

Ed was never one to let things like mere facts confuse him...

However, if he bothered to look at the UCI hour record and the IHPVA
hour record he'd find a lot more than 20% difference.

Pete.

Now _that's_ mixing apples and oranges.

What is the _unfaired_ recumbent hour record?

Sean Costin rode 47.89 km in one hour on an unfaired Velokraft NoCom,
which is not too far off the 49.431 km Merckx hour or the UCI legal
bicycle record of Ondřej Sosenka at 49.70 km.

See my other post.


The non-UCI legal upright hour record is by Chris Boardman at 56.375
km, on a bicycle that could not be safely ridden on the street, unlike
the NoCom, which several people ride on the roads, including urban and
suburban Chicagoland.

People actually ride those things on the street? What's the visibility
like, either seeing or being seen? How does it handle potholes? Does it
have a suspension?

While the NoCom is far from an all-around bike due to the compromises
made in other areas to maximize performance, it can be ridden on the street.

For decent performance with greater comfort, there is always the
practical lowracer such as the Earth Cycles Sunset:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/19704682@N08/1939602865/. Unfortunately
only 20 were made, and no, neither of mine is for sale.

A bike along the lines of the Challenge Taifun would be both practical
and fast (and available):
http://www.challenge-recumbents.com/html/index.php?taal=en&selectie=taifun.

For all the advocates of recumbents regarding
comfort, is this the vehicle they have in mind? I'm not anti recumbent
(would have loved to have had a Counterpoint Opus/ViewPoint) but without
personally trying this rig, I question it's daily practicality. The
Obree Superman style bike, while a step further than an aerobar setup,
was specifically designed to operate on a track. But there is no reason
the same handlebar setup couldn't have been applied to a road bicycle.
While I don't think I would probably recommend riding the Superman
handlebar setup within The Loop areas, I think it would be no less safe
than triathletes riding in their aerobar positions in suburban Chicagoland.

The Obree or "Superman" position rider better have well developed neck
muscles if he/she wants to keep an eye on the road ahead:
http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/web/MultimediaFiles/20061209_REV15_OBREE.JPG.
I have not ridden such a bike, but the large amount of "tiller" could
make for odd handling. Are not aerobars forbidden and/or discouraged for
any type of group riding?

I believe that a lot more people can tolerate being reclined on a
lowracer (like sitting on a lawn chair) than the severe tuck of the
Obree position.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.�

Carl Sundquist wrote:

"Carl Sundquist" wrote in message
...

What is the _unfaired_ recumbent hour record?

Sean Costin rode 47.89 km in one hour on an unfaired Velokraft NoCom,
which is not too far off the 49.431 km Merckx hour or the UCI legal
bicycle record of Ondřej Sosenka at 49.70 km.

BTW, Costin's flying 200 M time is very impressive, especially at
Northbrook.

Sean was the winner of the 200 meter sprint at the 1999 IHPVA World
Championship event.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.�

"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...

While the NoCom is far from an all-around bike due to the compromises made
in other areas to maximize performance, it can be ridden on the street.

Can we agree that it is not practical for the street (neither is a Superman
handlebar upright)?


A bike along the lines of the Challenge Taifun would be both practical and
fast (and available):
http://www.challenge-recumbents.com/html/index.php?taal=en&selectie=taifun.

"The Taifun was originally developed as a Hardtail Semi-Lowracer with 20"
wheels front and rear for quick handling and blistering acceleration."
Blistering acceleration?


For all the advocates of recumbents regarding comfort, is this the
vehicle they have in mind? I'm not anti recumbent (would have loved to
have had a Counterpoint Opus/ViewPoint) but without personally trying
this rig, I question it's daily practicality. The Obree Superman style
bike, while a step further than an aerobar setup, was specifically
designed to operate on a track. But there is no reason the same handlebar
setup couldn't have been applied to a road bicycle. While I don't think I
would probably recommend riding the Superman handlebar setup within The
Loop areas, I think it would be no less safe than triathletes riding in
their aerobar positions in suburban Chicagoland.

The Obree or "Superman" position rider better have well developed neck
muscles if he/she wants to keep an eye on the road ahead:
http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/web/MultimediaFiles/20061209_REV15_OBREE.JPG.

That's not the Superman position. Superman position has elbows/torso much
higher. Compare knee to elbow on the pic you provided (that looks like Obree
on a conventional setup) with http://www.wolfgang-menn.de/superpos.htm


I have not ridden such a bike, but the large amount of "tiller" could make
for odd handling. Are not aerobars forbidden and/or discouraged for any
type of group riding?

The tiller effect you speak of is not so pronounced. You do more of your
steering with your forearms than your hands. During road races, riders in
the lead will sometimes rest their forearms on the handlebar tops to
simulate the position of aerobars, leaving their hands attached to no part
of the bicycle. Aerobars are forbidden in mass start bicycle races (like
road races and criteriums), but are used in team time trials and team
pursuit events. The odd handling comes from not having a wide, stable base,
such as riding on the drops or on the brake levers for sharp or unexpected
maneuvers. Aerobar use in group riding is discouraged, usually because of
people using them without much experience and in locations where their use
is not prudent, such on city streets where you may have to swerve suddenly
or make a sharp turn on to a different road.


I believe that a lot more people can tolerate being reclined on a lowracer
(like sitting on a lawn chair) than the severe tuck of the Obree position.

Again, your reference is not the correct position. I can't speak personally
about the comfort of the Superman as I haven't tried it, but in 1994 I was
lent Moser's Obree style bike that he used a few months before to go faster
than his 1984 hour record. It was amazingly comfortable and easy to ride
(for someone used to riding a conventional upright bike).

http://www.wolfgang-menn.de/pics/pic_moser.jpg

BTW, here is a chart that could clear everything up, although I don't know
where they obtained their data:
http://www.adventuresofgreg.com/hpvl...speedchart.jpg

In alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent on Tue, 29 Jul 2008 20:28:43 -0500
Tom Sherman wrote:

Here is your unfaired recumbent which is at least 20% faster on a flat
course than a UCI legal bike: http://www.velokraft.com/-nc.htm. And
yes, I have personally witnessed the NoCom being ridden on public
suburban roads that were NOT closed to traffic. And yes (pace Jobst),
the chain is far enough away from the front wheel to allow reasonably
tight turns.

I've been riding in traffic with low racers although not that one
specifically, and I've seen someone commuting on a low racer.

Visibility is fine, you can see the heads turning everywhere!

Vision, according to the commuter, is a matter of road position and
intelligent anticipation.

As he'd been commuting on the thing for 2 years, I presume he had
learned how to do it well.

I doubt I'd want to commute on it, but I expect I could.

Zebee

Tom Sherman wrote:
Carl Sundquist wrote:
"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...
Carl Sundquist wrote:
There is no recumbent that is 20% faster than an upright on the
flats
everything else being equal.
Now _that's_ mixing apples and oranges.

What is the _unfaired_ recumbent hour record?
Who cares? The above point was "no recumbent", no distinction about
fairings or otherwise, simply *no* recumbent and a flat course
specified. And of course faired uprights are welcome to take part in
IHPVA records but nobody sees much point. I guess because they're not
so quick...


If you can specify a flat course, I can specify unfaired recumbents.
Here is your unfaired recumbent which is at least 20% faster on a flat
course than a UCI legal bike: http://www.velokraft.com/-nc.htm. And
yes, I have personally witnessed the NoCom being ridden on public
suburban roads that were NOT closed to traffic. And yes (pace Jobst),
the chain is far enough away from the front wheel to allow reasonably
tight turns.

That was the bike that the unfaired recumbent 1 hour world
record was set on. The record which by the way is slower
than the one for normal bikes. But that might be due to the
rider not being as good, who knows.

Maybe 1 hour is too short time for the upright bike to become
really uncomfortable, and thus a rider can ride it.



JonB

Carl Sundquist wrote:

"Jon Bendtsen" wrote in message
...
Carl Sundquist wrote:
"Jon Bendtsen" wrote in message
...
What is the _unfaired_ recumbent hour record?
I think it was 29.76 Miles, i saw a youtube of it today.
Which seems a little slower than the UCI hour record, but
maybe that is because the rider is not the same?
Ok. Now we're getting somewhere. I'd say that the unfaired
recumbent hour record is pretty darn remarkable. Did any noteworthy
rider do it?
I dont know, look him up


I looked on the IHPVA site before I asked the question. The only
(recognized) hour record that looks to possibly be an unfaired
recumbent was set in 1938 at 31.4 mph. Quite a remarkable time if
that was the case. Help me out here a little bit.

This is were i looked.

http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wrra/records.asp


JonB

Thanks. I did a quick search on Sean Costin. It's clear that he loves
building HPV/recumbents and likely spends more time tinkering with them
than trying to maximize his fitness. Nothing wrong with that at all and
as I said, pretty darn remarkable. And judging from the looks, given
equal wattage from riders his would be able to go 20 % faster than an
upright (on a flat, wind protected surface ;-)

I think you are right. I read that this world record seems like
a low hanging fruit, because it has not yet been targeted by
professional bicyclists.


JonB