Broken bike frame

Anyone experienced a broken bike frame as seen in the upper right corner of this picture?

https://imgur.com/7i148lV

Andy

On 8/6/2019 1:20 PM, AK wrote:
Anyone experienced a broken bike frame as seen in the upper right corner of this picture?

https://imgur.com/7i148lV

Andy


I had to copy the image and blow it up to read the sign, "My
helmet saved my life" (sincere? mockery?)

Experienced on my own bicycle? No.
Saw similar before? Yes.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=broken+car...es&ia= images

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, August 6, 2019 at 11:20:11 AM UTC-7, AK wrote:
Anyone experienced a broken bike frame as seen in the upper right corner of this picture?

https://imgur.com/7i148lV

Andy

This is NOT uncommon with carbon fiber bikes. They generally fail from internal defects that cannot be detected from outside. The manufacturing processes are maturing and this happens less often as time goes on. But it happens enough that Colnago states that they will not give a warranty of more than three years in the USA and everywhere else it is only two. The American manufacturers often give lifetime warranties because you general change bikes often enough that they are free of warranty burdens pretty rapidly.

On Wednesday, August 7, 2019 at 12:24:18 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, August 6, 2019 at 11:20:11 AM UTC-7, AK wrote:
Anyone experienced a broken bike frame as seen in the upper right corner of this picture?

https://imgur.com/7i148lV

Andy

This is NOT uncommon with carbon fiber bikes. They generally fail from internal defects that cannot be detected from outside. The manufacturing processes are maturing and this happens less often as time goes on. But it happens enough that Colnago states that they will not give a warranty of more than three years in the USA and everywhere else it is only two. The American manufacturers often give lifetime warranties because you general change bikes often enough that they are free of warranty burdens pretty rapidly.

That's interesting.

I believe my frame is steel.

It's pretty heavy especially when I take it up the stairs.

Andy

On Wednesday, August 7, 2019 at 2:51:00 PM UTC-7, AK wrote:
On Wednesday, August 7, 2019 at 12:24:18 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, August 6, 2019 at 11:20:11 AM UTC-7, AK wrote:
Anyone experienced a broken bike frame as seen in the upper right corner of this picture?

https://imgur.com/7i148lV

Andy

This is NOT uncommon with carbon fiber bikes. They generally fail from internal defects that cannot be detected from outside. The manufacturing processes are maturing and this happens less often as time goes on. But it happens enough that Colnago states that they will not give a warranty of more than three years in the USA and everywhere else it is only two. The American manufacturers often give lifetime warranties because you general change bikes often enough that they are free of warranty burdens pretty rapidly.

That's interesting.

I believe my frame is steel.

It's pretty heavy especially when I take it up the stairs.

Andy

Steel frames also fail catastrophically. You should have seen the mess that the early mountain bikes made.

The much higher end steel these days that is welded construction can be almost as light as a carbon fiber frame built to the weight limits of the UCI.

I'm presently building a LeMond Zurich made from Reynolds 853 oversize and I'm shooting for the same or less weight than my Colnago CF bike.

On 8/9/2019 6:39 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, August 9, 2019 at 2:43:18 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-08-09 09:18, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, August 7, 2019 at 2:51:00 PM UTC-7, AK wrote:
On Wednesday, August 7, 2019 at 12:24:18 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich
wrote:
On Tuesday, August 6, 2019 at 11:20:11 AM UTC-7, AK wrote:
Anyone experienced a broken bike frame as seen in the upper
right corner of this picture?

https://imgur.com/7i148lV

Andy

This is NOT uncommon with carbon fiber bikes. They generally fail
from internal defects that cannot be detected from outside. The
manufacturing processes are maturing and this happens less often
as time goes on. But it happens enough that Colnago states that
they will not give a warranty of more than three years in the USA
and everywhere else it is only two. The American manufacturers
often give lifetime warranties because you general change bikes
often enough that they are free of warranty burdens pretty
rapidly.


Except if I am the customer. My road bike frame is from 1982 and still
does at least 2500mi/year. More than twice as much as my car. The other
miles are with the MTB, now also five years old.

I used to put around 6000mi/year on it when I was young (and weighed a
lot less). Went up hills in 42/21 like a goat. I don't know how that was
ever possible, now I sometimes need to bail from 42/32 to 42/40.



That's interesting.

I believe my frame is steel.

It's pretty heavy especially when I take it up the stairs.


Doesn't have to be. My steel frame wasn't much heavier than aluminum
bikes that came out in the 90's but, of course, that changed immediately
after I bought it and ruggedized it.


Andy

Steel frames also fail catastrophically. You should have seen the
mess that the early mountain bikes made.

The much higher end steel these days that is welded construction can
be almost as light as a carbon fiber frame built to the weight limits
of the UCI.

I'm presently building a LeMond Zurich made from Reynolds 853
oversize and I'm shooting for the same or less weight than my Colnago
CF bike.


Is that a late 90's frame? I wonder if steel frames deteriorate with
miles that have been put on. Mine should be around 70000mi now.

What I noticed when riding with others is that the steel frame seems to
absorb really rough road sections better than aluminum or CF frames of
other riders. Sometimes they go "Ouch" or "Yikes!" when I don't feel much.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I have a Basso Loto of the final year. It had oversized tubing to Basso's needs. ("Basso Tubing Concepts") That was from the early 90's I expect. It rides like a dream though I presently have it taken apart getting ready to refinish it. I want to put all of the correct decals on it but that is becoming a real hassle. The sticker for that Basso Tubing Concepts doesn't exist. Even Basso won't answer emails about it. And it uses one old-style Basso headtube decal and one of the new style on the seat tube.

I've talked to decal people and they want to only make them in the stock color. So rather than the Basso in a contrasting color to the new paint (Medium Yellow with red trim around the lugs) they want to make it grey.

Also I would really like to use masks rather than decals and put the Basso labels on in normal paint.


Any commercial graphics house can cut vinyl masks for
painted letters. This is a cheap modern process.

If you want outline letters you'll need a hand
letterer/striper and their time is expensive as anyone who's
good at it is 70 years old now. Check your local motorcycle
painters for a guy who stripes fuel tanks. That's the guy
you want.

I have the 1980s Loto sets:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/BASSYELL.JPG

which do not include the 'Concept Tube' label:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/GAPBB.JPG

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, August 9, 2019 at 5:38:41 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/9/2019 6:39 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, August 9, 2019 at 2:43:18 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-08-09 09:18, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, August 7, 2019 at 2:51:00 PM UTC-7, AK wrote:
On Wednesday, August 7, 2019 at 12:24:18 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich
wrote:
On Tuesday, August 6, 2019 at 11:20:11 AM UTC-7, AK wrote:
Anyone experienced a broken bike frame as seen in the upper
right corner of this picture?

https://imgur.com/7i148lV

Andy

This is NOT uncommon with carbon fiber bikes. They generally fail
from internal defects that cannot be detected from outside. The
manufacturing processes are maturing and this happens less often
as time goes on. But it happens enough that Colnago states that
they will not give a warranty of more than three years in the USA
and everywhere else it is only two. The American manufacturers
often give lifetime warranties because you general change bikes
often enough that they are free of warranty burdens pretty
rapidly.


Except if I am the customer. My road bike frame is from 1982 and still
does at least 2500mi/year. More than twice as much as my car. The other
miles are with the MTB, now also five years old.

I used to put around 6000mi/year on it when I was young (and weighed a
lot less). Went up hills in 42/21 like a goat. I don't know how that was
ever possible, now I sometimes need to bail from 42/32 to 42/40.



That's interesting.

I believe my frame is steel.

It's pretty heavy especially when I take it up the stairs.


Doesn't have to be. My steel frame wasn't much heavier than aluminum
bikes that came out in the 90's but, of course, that changed immediately
after I bought it and ruggedized it.


Andy

Steel frames also fail catastrophically. You should have seen the
mess that the early mountain bikes made.

The much higher end steel these days that is welded construction can
be almost as light as a carbon fiber frame built to the weight limits
of the UCI.

I'm presently building a LeMond Zurich made from Reynolds 853
oversize and I'm shooting for the same or less weight than my Colnago
CF bike.


Is that a late 90's frame? I wonder if steel frames deteriorate with
miles that have been put on. Mine should be around 70000mi now.

What I noticed when riding with others is that the steel frame seems to
absorb really rough road sections better than aluminum or CF frames of
other riders. Sometimes they go "Ouch" or "Yikes!" when I don't feel much.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I have a Basso Loto of the final year. It had oversized tubing to Basso's needs. ("Basso Tubing Concepts") That was from the early 90's I expect. It rides like a dream though I presently have it taken apart getting ready to refinish it. I want to put all of the correct decals on it but that is becoming a real hassle. The sticker for that Basso Tubing Concepts doesn't exist. Even Basso won't answer emails about it. And it uses one old-style Basso headtube decal and one of the new style on the seat tube.

I've talked to decal people and they want to only make them in the stock color. So rather than the Basso in a contrasting color to the new paint (Medium Yellow with red trim around the lugs) they want to make it grey.

Also I would really like to use masks rather than decals and put the Basso labels on in normal paint.


Any commercial graphics house can cut vinyl masks for
painted letters. This is a cheap modern process.

If you want outline letters you'll need a hand
letterer/striper and their time is expensive as anyone who's
good at it is 70 years old now. Check your local motorcycle
painters for a guy who stripes fuel tanks. That's the guy
you want.

I have the 1980s Loto sets:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/BASSYELL.JPG

which do not include the 'Concept Tube' label:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/GAPBB.JPG

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

That Basso Loto decal set is from several years earlier than the one with the Basso Tubing Concepts sticker. In any case THAT picture looks exactly like the one I sent to the Decal man and he wanted a better picture of it. I have the frame stripped down now and will take the best pictures I can.

I appreciate your advice on finding a commercial graphics man. I have a couple within a mile of my home. I can paint on the Basso and Loto insignia and then have the other stuff as decals.

On 8/10/2019 3:03 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, August 9, 2019 at 5:38:41 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/9/2019 6:39 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, August 9, 2019 at 2:43:18 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-08-09 09:18, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, August 7, 2019 at 2:51:00 PM UTC-7, AK wrote:
On Wednesday, August 7, 2019 at 12:24:18 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich
wrote:
On Tuesday, August 6, 2019 at 11:20:11 AM UTC-7, AK wrote:
Anyone experienced a broken bike frame as seen in the upper
right corner of this picture?

https://imgur.com/7i148lV

Andy

This is NOT uncommon with carbon fiber bikes. They generally fail
from internal defects that cannot be detected from outside. The
manufacturing processes are maturing and this happens less often
as time goes on. But it happens enough that Colnago states that
they will not give a warranty of more than three years in the USA
and everywhere else it is only two. The American manufacturers
often give lifetime warranties because you general change bikes
often enough that they are free of warranty burdens pretty
rapidly.


Except if I am the customer. My road bike frame is from 1982 and still
does at least 2500mi/year. More than twice as much as my car. The other
miles are with the MTB, now also five years old.

I used to put around 6000mi/year on it when I was young (and weighed a
lot less). Went up hills in 42/21 like a goat. I don't know how that was
ever possible, now I sometimes need to bail from 42/32 to 42/40.



That's interesting.

I believe my frame is steel.

It's pretty heavy especially when I take it up the stairs.


Doesn't have to be. My steel frame wasn't much heavier than aluminum
bikes that came out in the 90's but, of course, that changed immediately
after I bought it and ruggedized it.


Andy

Steel frames also fail catastrophically. You should have seen the
mess that the early mountain bikes made.

The much higher end steel these days that is welded construction can
be almost as light as a carbon fiber frame built to the weight limits
of the UCI.

I'm presently building a LeMond Zurich made from Reynolds 853
oversize and I'm shooting for the same or less weight than my Colnago
CF bike.


Is that a late 90's frame? I wonder if steel frames deteriorate with
miles that have been put on. Mine should be around 70000mi now.

What I noticed when riding with others is that the steel frame seems to
absorb really rough road sections better than aluminum or CF frames of
other riders. Sometimes they go "Ouch" or "Yikes!" when I don't feel much.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I have a Basso Loto of the final year. It had oversized tubing to Basso's needs. ("Basso Tubing Concepts") That was from the early 90's I expect. It rides like a dream though I presently have it taken apart getting ready to refinish it. I want to put all of the correct decals on it but that is becoming a real hassle. The sticker for that Basso Tubing Concepts doesn't exist. Even Basso won't answer emails about it. And it uses one old-style Basso headtube decal and one of the new style on the seat tube.

I've talked to decal people and they want to only make them in the stock color. So rather than the Basso in a contrasting color to the new paint (Medium Yellow with red trim around the lugs) they want to make it grey.

Also I would really like to use masks rather than decals and put the Basso labels on in normal paint.


Any commercial graphics house can cut vinyl masks for
painted letters. This is a cheap modern process.

If you want outline letters you'll need a hand
letterer/striper and their time is expensive as anyone who's
good at it is 70 years old now. Check your local motorcycle
painters for a guy who stripes fuel tanks. That's the guy
you want.

I have the 1980s Loto sets:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/BASSYELL.JPG

which do not include the 'Concept Tube' label:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/GAPBB.JPG

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

That Basso Loto decal set is from several years earlier than the one with the Basso Tubing Concepts sticker. In any case THAT picture looks exactly like the one I sent to the Decal man and he wanted a better picture of it. I have the frame stripped down now and will take the best pictures I can.

I appreciate your advice on finding a commercial graphics man. I have a couple within a mile of my home. I can paint on the Basso and Loto insignia and then have the other stuff as decals.


Vinyl letters look like crap on a bike. But they make a very
useful and affordable paint mask. Spray letter color, allow
to cure then wetsand, apply letters, spray main frame color.
Then remove vinyl, wetsand and clear. That's what Colnago
does on these:

mask-
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...st/col162o.jpg
color-
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...st/col162p.jpg

It's tedious work and in my case time-money. YMMV.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2019-08-10 13:03, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, August 9, 2019 at 5:38:41 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/9/2019 6:39 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, August 9, 2019 at 2:43:18 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-08-09 09:18, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, August 7, 2019 at 2:51:00 PM UTC-7, AK wrote:
On Wednesday, August 7, 2019 at 12:24:18 PM UTC-5, Tom
Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, August 6, 2019 at 11:20:11 AM UTC-7, AK
wrote:
Anyone experienced a broken bike frame as seen in the
upper right corner of this picture?

https://imgur.com/7i148lV

Andy

This is NOT uncommon with carbon fiber bikes. They
generally fail from internal defects that cannot be
detected from outside. The manufacturing processes are
maturing and this happens less often as time goes on. But
it happens enough that Colnago states that they will not
give a warranty of more than three years in the USA and
everywhere else it is only two. The American
manufacturers often give lifetime warranties because you
general change bikes often enough that they are free of
warranty burdens pretty rapidly.


Except if I am the customer. My road bike frame is from 1982
and still does at least 2500mi/year. More than twice as much as
my car. The other miles are with the MTB, now also five years
old.

I used to put around 6000mi/year on it when I was young (and
weighed a lot less). Went up hills in 42/21 like a goat. I
don't know how that was ever possible, now I sometimes need to
bail from 42/32 to 42/40.



That's interesting.

I believe my frame is steel.

It's pretty heavy especially when I take it up the stairs.


Doesn't have to be. My steel frame wasn't much heavier than
aluminum bikes that came out in the 90's but, of course, that
changed immediately after I bought it and ruggedized it.


Andy

Steel frames also fail catastrophically. You should have seen
the mess that the early mountain bikes made.

The much higher end steel these days that is welded
construction can be almost as light as a carbon fiber frame
built to the weight limits of the UCI.

I'm presently building a LeMond Zurich made from Reynolds
853 oversize and I'm shooting for the same or less weight
than my Colnago CF bike.


Is that a late 90's frame? I wonder if steel frames deteriorate
with miles that have been put on. Mine should be around 70000mi
now.

What I noticed when riding with others is that the steel frame
seems to absorb really rough road sections better than aluminum
or CF frames of other riders. Sometimes they go "Ouch" or
"Yikes!" when I don't feel much.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I have a Basso Loto of the final year. It had oversized tubing to
Basso's needs. ("Basso Tubing Concepts") That was from the early
90's I expect. It rides like a dream though I presently have it
taken apart getting ready to refinish it. I want to put all of
the correct decals on it but that is becoming a real hassle. The
sticker for that Basso Tubing Concepts doesn't exist. Even Basso
won't answer emails about it. And it uses one old-style Basso
headtube decal and one of the new style on the seat tube.

I've talked to decal people and they want to only make them in
the stock color. So rather than the Basso in a contrasting color
to the new paint (Medium Yellow with red trim around the lugs)
they want to make it grey.

Also I would really like to use masks rather than decals and put
the Basso labels on in normal paint.


Any commercial graphics house can cut vinyl masks for painted
letters. This is a cheap modern process.

If you want outline letters you'll need a hand letterer/striper and
their time is expensive as anyone who's good at it is 70 years old
now. Check your local motorcycle painters for a guy who stripes
fuel tanks. That's the guy you want.

I have the 1980s Loto sets:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/BASSYELL.JPG

which do not include the 'Concept Tube' label:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/GAPBB.JPG

-- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1
April, 1971

That Basso Loto decal set is from several years earlier than the one
with the Basso Tubing Concepts sticker. In any case THAT picture
looks exactly like the one I sent to the Decal man and he wanted a
better picture of it. I have the frame stripped down now and will
take the best pictures I can.

I appreciate your advice on finding a commercial graphics man. I have
a couple within a mile of my home. I can paint on the Basso and Loto
insignia and then have the other stuff as decals.


Wow, I would never go to that length and expense to restore a bike
frame. Mine is all scuffed up from years of use and it hasn't been
washed since 1982. It won't ever get a paint job. I consider all that
patina :-)

Same with the MTB. It hasn't been washed since the day I bought it about
five years ago. After every rain ride it's clean and shortly thereafter
it resumes its usual decor, turning from white to brown, all caked in
mud. I bet it weighs 1lbs more just because of all the mud crusted onto it.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Saturday, August 10, 2019 at 5:52:03 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-08-10 13:03, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, August 9, 2019 at 5:38:41 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/9/2019 6:39 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, August 9, 2019 at 2:43:18 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-08-09 09:18, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, August 7, 2019 at 2:51:00 PM UTC-7, AK wrote:
On Wednesday, August 7, 2019 at 12:24:18 PM UTC-5, Tom
Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, August 6, 2019 at 11:20:11 AM UTC-7, AK
wrote:
Anyone experienced a broken bike frame as seen in the
upper right corner of this picture?

https://imgur.com/7i148lV

Andy

This is NOT uncommon with carbon fiber bikes. They
generally fail from internal defects that cannot be
detected from outside. The manufacturing processes are
maturing and this happens less often as time goes on. But
it happens enough that Colnago states that they will not
give a warranty of more than three years in the USA and
everywhere else it is only two. The American
manufacturers often give lifetime warranties because you
general change bikes often enough that they are free of
warranty burdens pretty rapidly.


Except if I am the customer. My road bike frame is from 1982
and still does at least 2500mi/year. More than twice as much as
my car. The other miles are with the MTB, now also five years
old.

I used to put around 6000mi/year on it when I was young (and
weighed a lot less). Went up hills in 42/21 like a goat. I
don't know how that was ever possible, now I sometimes need to
bail from 42/32 to 42/40.



That's interesting.

I believe my frame is steel.

It's pretty heavy especially when I take it up the stairs.


Doesn't have to be. My steel frame wasn't much heavier than
aluminum bikes that came out in the 90's but, of course, that
changed immediately after I bought it and ruggedized it.


Andy

Steel frames also fail catastrophically. You should have seen
the mess that the early mountain bikes made.

The much higher end steel these days that is welded
construction can be almost as light as a carbon fiber frame
built to the weight limits of the UCI.

I'm presently building a LeMond Zurich made from Reynolds
853 oversize and I'm shooting for the same or less weight
than my Colnago CF bike.


Is that a late 90's frame? I wonder if steel frames deteriorate
with miles that have been put on. Mine should be around 70000mi
now.

What I noticed when riding with others is that the steel frame
seems to absorb really rough road sections better than aluminum
or CF frames of other riders. Sometimes they go "Ouch" or
"Yikes!" when I don't feel much.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I have a Basso Loto of the final year. It had oversized tubing to
Basso's needs. ("Basso Tubing Concepts") That was from the early
90's I expect. It rides like a dream though I presently have it
taken apart getting ready to refinish it. I want to put all of
the correct decals on it but that is becoming a real hassle. The
sticker for that Basso Tubing Concepts doesn't exist. Even Basso
won't answer emails about it. And it uses one old-style Basso
headtube decal and one of the new style on the seat tube.

I've talked to decal people and they want to only make them in
the stock color. So rather than the Basso in a contrasting color
to the new paint (Medium Yellow with red trim around the lugs)
they want to make it grey.

Also I would really like to use masks rather than decals and put
the Basso labels on in normal paint.


Any commercial graphics house can cut vinyl masks for painted
letters. This is a cheap modern process.

If you want outline letters you'll need a hand letterer/striper and
their time is expensive as anyone who's good at it is 70 years old
now. Check your local motorcycle painters for a guy who stripes
fuel tanks. That's the guy you want.

I have the 1980s Loto sets:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/BASSYELL.JPG

which do not include the 'Concept Tube' label:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/GAPBB.JPG

-- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1
April, 1971

That Basso Loto decal set is from several years earlier than the one
with the Basso Tubing Concepts sticker. In any case THAT picture
looks exactly like the one I sent to the Decal man and he wanted a
better picture of it. I have the frame stripped down now and will
take the best pictures I can.

I appreciate your advice on finding a commercial graphics man. I have
a couple within a mile of my home. I can paint on the Basso and Loto
insignia and then have the other stuff as decals.


Wow, I would never go to that length and expense to restore a bike
frame. Mine is all scuffed up from years of use and it hasn't been
washed since 1982. It won't ever get a paint job. I consider all that
patina :-)

Same with the MTB. It hasn't been washed since the day I bought it about
five years ago. After every rain ride it's clean and shortly thereafter
it resumes its usual decor, turning from white to brown, all caked in
mud. I bet it weighs 1lbs more just because of all the mud crusted onto it.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

That just might be why you had so many problems with things breaking. LOL VBEG ;)

Cheers