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Bicycling Magazine - Time to Vent!



 
 
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  #91  
Old April 26th 09, 03:09 AM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Edward Dolan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 14,212
Default Bicycling Magazine - Time to Vent!


"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...
Edward Dolan wrote:
[...]
There is not much training involved in riding an upright. After all, you
are in an almost standing position on such a bike.[...]


If a person does not regularly train on an upright bicycle, it will
literally be a pain in the ass on anything but short rides.


Yes, I agree about the pain factor. But I am maintaining that there is
something about positioning on a recumbent that militates against
efficiency. I don't think you can improve on being situated right over the
crank where the gravitational effect is maximized as well as the pumping
motion of blood circulating in your legs. On final consideration, a laid
back position is a resting position, not a working position. The psychology
is all wrong.

However, there is no one who is a greater proponent of recumbents than yours
truly. But recumbents are all about
comfort and not much else. Anyone who gets them for any other reason is
quite mistaken.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota




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  #92  
Old April 27th 09, 02:12 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Jeff Grippe
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Posts: 277
Default Bicycling Magazine - Time to Vent!

Hmmm, I'm seeing that side of the Ed Dolan character that I don't much care
for. There is no real dialog with him so I think we can call this
conversation finished.

Best Always,
Jeff
"Edward Dolan" wrote in message
...

"Jeff Grippe" wrote in message
m...

"Edward Dolan" wrote in message
news:qsKdnaJstswNEG_UnZ2dnUVZ_tSdnZ2d@prairiewave. com...

You couldn't be more wrong! Quality can be measured in the arts, but not
by the numbers. It is measured by deferring to the opinions of our
betters. Who are our betters? Experts and connoisseurs are our betters -
folks who have spent their lives following the arts. These have been
mostly European aristocrats, not bourgeois slobs like you and me. I have
enough sense to know who my betters are. And the funny thing is, they
are
never wrong in the aggregate. There is nothing subjective about the
arts.
It can be ranked and rated just like anything else, only not by the
numbers.


If you were correct then we should all know clearly what is good and what
is not but there seems to be some confusion about it. What you call
quality, my son would call crap. You could line up the experts from one
end of the earth to other (note: the earth doesn't have ends) and he
would
still call it crap. The reverse would be true. Who's right?


Your 16 year old son has not lived long enough to know anything worth
knowing. If he is in fact your son, he may never know anything about
quality - just like you don't. After all, he may end up a chip off the old
block.

You because you know who the
experts and and have consulted them? What a ridiculous argument.


Expertise is easily available on every subject under the sun. Libraries
storehouse this kind of wisdom.

The arts are entirely subjective. I remember I was once shown a monograph
(big expensive book of pictures of paintings) by an artist who's whole
schtick was painting a canvas one solid color and then painting one or
two
vertical stripes of another color. I thought it was the was crazy that
anyone would want to own these thing or would pay anything for them. The
monograph sold for hundreds of dollars. The paintings themselves all sold
for the 5 figures or more. The experts had spoken and this mans paintings
of stripes were quality. Give me a break! I wouldn't pay money for either
the paintings or the monographs but your "betters" do and in no small
number.


Such art galleries are only trafficking in what sells. Again, it is about
popularity, not quality. You have to wait a few generations before final
pronouncements can be arrived at.

The arts are fashion. Sometimes they are sold. Even those things that are
considered timeless (Bach comes to mind) don't find a universal audience.
It is subjective. It has always been subjective. It will always be
subjective. That is why there are different sections in the record store
(if you can find a record store).


Nope, I don't particularly like Bach (way too religious to suit me) but
his
art is great art and it doesn't matter what you and I think about it. Nor
does it matter in the least what your idiot 16 year old son thinks about
it either. There
is absolutely nothing subjective about Bach if you belong to Western
Civilization. If you want to opt out of Western Civilization, that is fine
with me, but if you don't, then you are subject to the tried and true
opinion of our betters. Anyone who thinks all opinions are equal
(subjective and nothing but a fashion) is clearly an idiot.

Good luck finding a measure for quality that matters to anyone other than
you. If you are going to tell me that what matters to others isn't
important, well then you've proved my point for me that quality is
subjective.


The measures are everywhere, but you are too lazy and arrogant to educate
yourself. Like most, you think your confounded opinion is as good as
anyone else's. Therefore, everything can be subjective to you. It is how
you justify your abominably bad taste to yourself. But the ages say
differently. You and your opinions will be left in the dust bin of
history. All that counts in the end are expert opinions, not popularity in
the moment. And those expert opinions are as true as any so-called hard
scientific facts.

"The arts are entirely subjective." No more ridiculous statement has ever
been made. My suggestion to you is to enjoy whatever it is that you enjoy,
but please, do not think for a moment that you have a clue about quality
in the arts. Leave that to the cultural elites.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota





  #93  
Old April 27th 09, 02:45 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Edward Dolan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 14,212
Default Bicycling Magazine - Time to Vent!


"Jeff Grippe" wrote in message
...

ALL TOP POSTERS ARE IDIOTS!

Hmmm, I'm seeing that side of the Ed Dolan character that I don't much
care for. There is no real dialog with him so I think we can call this
conversation finished.


You are not used to being disagreed with in a forceful fashion. In order to
have a dialogue, you have to say something sensible. Since you refuse to do
that, you are quite right. I am better off talking to the wall than to you.
[...]

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota


  #94  
Old April 27th 09, 07:03 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Jeff Grippe
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 277
Default Bicycling Magazine - Time to Vent!

Oh you sweet little button pusher you! Have fun with the wall!
Jeff
"Edward Dolan" wrote in message
news:PMadnRnsC_55K2jUnZ2dnUVZ_hudnZ2d@prairiewave. com...

"Jeff Grippe" wrote in message
...

ALL TOP POSTERS ARE IDIOTS!

Hmmm, I'm seeing that side of the Ed Dolan character that I don't much
care for. There is no real dialog with him so I think we can call this
conversation finished.


You are not used to being disagreed with in a forceful fashion. In order
to have a dialogue, you have to say something sensible. Since you refuse
to do that, you are quite right. I am better off talking to the wall than
to you.
[...]

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota




  #95  
Old April 28th 09, 08:17 AM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Edward Dolan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 14,212
Default Bicycling Magazine - Time to Vent!


"Jeff Grippe" wrote in message
m...

ALL TOP POSTERS ARE IDIOTS!

Oh you sweet little button pusher you! Have fun with the wall!
Jeff


And you have fun talking to your 16 year old idiot son whom I am sure is
like all 16 year olds - they do not know **** from shinola. Maybe when you
tire of his rap, you can also attack his character, ever the last refuge of
liberal scoundrels when they have lost an argument.
[...]

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota


"Edward Dolan" wrote in message
news:PMadnRnsC_55K2jUnZ2dnUVZ_hudnZ2d@prairiewave. com...

"Jeff Grippe" wrote in message
...

ALL TOP POSTERS ARE IDIOTS!

Hmmm, I'm seeing that side of the Ed Dolan character that I don't much
care for. There is no real dialog with him so I think we can call this
conversation finished.


You are not used to being disagreed with in a forceful fashion. In order
to have a dialogue, you have to say something sensible. Since you refuse
to do that, you are quite right. I am better off talking to the wall than
to you.
[...]



  #96  
Old April 28th 09, 02:07 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Jeff Grippe
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 277
Default Bicycling Magazine - Time to Vent!

You know what they say (and I'm paraphrasing here)...Flattery will get you
top posting...

All the best, Ed.

Jeff
"Edward Dolan" wrote in message
news:P5mdnRUEkowIMGvUnZ2dnUVZ_rGdnZ2d@prairiewave. com...

"Jeff Grippe" wrote in message
m...

ALL TOP POSTERS ARE IDIOTS!

Oh you sweet little button pusher you! Have fun with the wall!
Jeff


And you have fun talking to your 16 year old idiot son whom I am sure is
like all 16 year olds - they do not know **** from shinola. Maybe when you
tire of his rap, you can also attack his character, ever the last refuge
of liberal scoundrels when they have lost an argument.
[...]

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota


"Edward Dolan" wrote in message
news:PMadnRnsC_55K2jUnZ2dnUVZ_hudnZ2d@prairiewave. com...

"Jeff Grippe" wrote in message
...

ALL TOP POSTERS ARE IDIOTS!

Hmmm, I'm seeing that side of the Ed Dolan character that I don't much
care for. There is no real dialog with him so I think we can call this
conversation finished.

You are not used to being disagreed with in a forceful fashion. In order
to have a dialogue, you have to say something sensible. Since you refuse
to do that, you are quite right. I am better off talking to the wall
than to you.
[...]





  #97  
Old April 28th 09, 07:49 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Mike
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 150
Default Bicycling Magazine - Time to Vent!

On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 20:09:22 -0500, Tom Sherman
wrote:

Edward Dolan wrote:
[...]
There is not much training involved in riding an upright. After all, you are
in an almost standing position on such a bike.[...]


If a person does not regularly train on an upright bicycle, it will
literally be a pain in the ass on anything but short rides.


I can vouch for that, even 20 mins on a DF on my rollers last week was
enough to induce a pain in the ass, tingling in my balls and an ache
in my lumbar region.

--
  #98  
Old April 28th 09, 08:31 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Opus[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 414
Default Bicycling Magazine - Time to Vent!

On Apr 26, 12:25 am, "Edward Dolan" wrote:
snip

Ed, you just don't get the point. Climbing on a wedgie takes training,
climbing on a 'bent takes training, if you are trained for climbing on
a wedgie then your muscles are not trained for climbing on a 'bent.
With my personal power to weight ratio I will never be an "Angel" in
the mountains, but after training on my Stratus I was no slower
climbing than I had been riding my mountain bike on road slicks at the
same weight. It isn't that 'bents are any worse at climbing than
wedgies it's that 'bents use different muscles that need to be trained
to the same level as wedgie riders.


There is not much training involved in riding an upright. After all, you are
in an almost standing position on such a bike. Recumbents are drastically
different as you are truly in a sitting position, sometimes an almost lying
down position. This is not an attitude conducive to work nor friendly to leg
motion. I hope I don't have to explain to you how gravity works and how
blood circulates in our legs.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota


I respectfully disagree on the training to ride an upright. If it
didn't require training then why are so few people out racing bikes up
hills? If it didn't require training then people should be able to
just hop on a bike and fly up a hill. And as for the circulation
strawman, blood has to be able to get out as well as in, and the legs
high(er) position of a recumbent helps drainage of blood. In fact for
the first 4 or 5 years after my last wreck I could only ride
recumbents for that very reason. But the situation remains that riding
'bent requires different muscles firing at different places in the
pedal stroke than riding wedgie, and not only that but different types
of 'bents require different muscles than other 'bents. Unless you're
riding a Varna which was designed to use the exact same muscles and
timing as a wedgie so that his favorite motors could train on road and
mountain bikes until Battle Mountain, and still be able to break the
speed limits of 37 states.

Opus
  #99  
Old April 29th 09, 05:12 AM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Edward Dolan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 14,212
Default Bicycling Magazine - Time to Vent!


"Mike" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 20:09:22 -0500, Tom Sherman
wrote:

Edward Dolan wrote:
[...]
There is not much training involved in riding an upright. After all, you
are
in an almost standing position on such a bike.[...]


If a person does not regularly train on an upright bicycle, it will
literally be a pain in the ass on anything but short rides.


I can vouch for that, even 20 mins on a DF on my rollers last week was
enough to induce a pain in the ass, tingling in my balls and an ache
in my lumbar region.


The conventional upright road bicycle with the typical saddle will cause all
kinds of groin problems, some of which can be quite serious and permanent.
Upright bicycles handle well and you can be fast on them, but they are not
friendly to the human body.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota


  #100  
Old April 29th 09, 05:29 AM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Edward Dolan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 14,212
Default Bicycling Magazine - Time to Vent!


"Opus" wrote in message
...
On Apr 26, 12:25 am, "Edward Dolan" wrote:
snip

Ed, you just don't get the point. Climbing on a wedgie takes training,
climbing on a 'bent takes training, if you are trained for climbing on
a wedgie then your muscles are not trained for climbing on a 'bent.
With my personal power to weight ratio I will never be an "Angel" in
the mountains, but after training on my Stratus I was no slower
climbing than I had been riding my mountain bike on road slicks at the
same weight. It isn't that 'bents are any worse at climbing than
wedgies it's that 'bents use different muscles that need to be trained
to the same level as wedgie riders.


There is not much training involved in riding an upright. After all, you
are
in an almost standing position on such a bike. Recumbents are
drastically
different as you are truly in a sitting position, sometimes an almost
lying
down position. This is not an attitude conducive to work nor friendly to
leg
motion. I hope I don't have to explain to you how gravity works and how
blood circulates in our legs.


I respectfully disagree on the training to ride an upright. If it
didn't require training then why are so few people out racing bikes up
hills? If it didn't require training then people should be able to
just hop on a bike and fly up a hill.


No one ever just flies up hills on a bicycle no matter how much training
they have had. It is hard work to climb hills on any kind of bicycle, but it
is much harder on a recumbent.

And as for the circulation
strawman, blood has to be able to get out as well as in, and the legs
high(er) position of a recumbent helps drainage of blood. In fact for
the first 4 or 5 years after my last wreck I could only ride
recumbents for that very reason.


As upright primates, blood circulation in our legs is designed for an
upright position - or did evolution not get it right after hundreds of
thousands of years of working on the problem?

But the situation remains that riding
'bent requires different muscles firing at different places in the
pedal stroke than riding wedgie, and not only that but different types
of 'bents require different muscles than other 'bents. Unless you're
riding a Varna which was designed to use the exact same muscles and
timing as a wedgie so that his favorite motors could train on road and
mountain bikes until Battle Mountain, and still be able to break the
speed limits of 37 states.


I am not saying that training those leg muscles does not count. I am simply
saying that an upright is more conducive to that training since it is an
upright position, one that nature designed us for.

But we humans need seats, not saddles. Only recumbents will give us a proper
seat.

The ideal way to ride an upright would be with no saddle at all. It would
consist of standing and peddling only. That would most closely parallel
walking and running.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota


 




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