Can't Use Helmets in the Sun????

wrote:
Hadron Quark wrote:
writes:

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
Sid wrote:

Yeah, OK. So, what is your point. I would rather fall over and hit my hit
while wearing a helmet than while not wearing a helmet.

Seems so commonsensical, doesn't it? I am amazed at those who can't
grasp this simple point. Are they blinded by their anti-helmet agenda?

I'd describe the point as "simplistic" rather than "simple."

Ozark and Sorni are big fans of reducing complex issues down to levels
they can understand.


You really are a pompous gasbag, aren't you?


Read up on Occams Razor.

I've done that long ago, thanks.


You may have read it, but did you _understand_? In essence, it is to
"postulate the fewest hypothetical entities" (i.e., the simplest
plausible explanation is usually best). Your reaching and hiding in
statistical BS would make Occam hide his head in shame. See: "Helmet
Poll: First Hand Experience" for what people ae really experiencing.
Experience, Frank....it means actually doing it, having it happen, not
curling up with Penthouse, AstroGlide and your imagination.


BTW, what brand of bumwad is best, based on your extensive research?


surplus hot gases snipped

"Ozark Bicycle" wrote in message
oups.com...

Sid wrote:
While 90% of all accidents fall into that catagory you should probably
be aware that just falling over and hitting your head against a curb
will substantially exceed the protective capacity of a helmet.


Yeah, OK. So, what is your point. I would rather fall over and hit my
hit
while wearing a helmet than while not wearing a helmet.

Seems so commonsensical, doesn't it? I am amazed at those who can't
grasp this simple point. Are they blinded by their anti-helmet agenda?

To me it seems that a helmet would save your head in any fall, whether there
is a bike in the vicinity or not. It would help on stairs, in showers, in
car crashes, all of which have more injuries per capita than bicycles. So,
if it's so commonsensical, why aren't people wearing helmets whenever they
get off the couch?

I unbelievingly often get called out for not wearing a helmet while pedaling
to my daugher's school. Note that I run this same route, on the same roads
(there are no sidewalks), at the same speed more often, yet not one person
has mentioned I should be wearing a helmet when I go running.

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
wrote:
Hadron Quark wrote:
writes:

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
Sid wrote:

Yeah, OK. So, what is your point. I would rather fall over and
hit my hit while wearing a helmet than while not wearing a
helmet.

Seems so commonsensical, doesn't it? I am amazed at those who
can't grasp this simple point. Are they blinded by their
anti-helmet agenda?

I'd describe the point as "simplistic" rather than "simple."

Ozark and Sorni are big fans of reducing complex issues down to
levels they can understand.


You really are a pompous gasbag, aren't you?

Invective! Invective! Haven't you figured it out yet, O? We're supposed
to let Frank and JFT and Press and Dough and {insert favorite AHZ persona
here} talk down to us, insult us, dismiss us, etc. and then just say "Thank
you, sir, may I have another?"

How DARE you resort to name-calling?

{sarcams off; sorni out}

Per Cathy Kearns:
To me it seems that a helmet would save your head in any fall, whether there
is a bike in the vicinity or not. It would help on stairs, in showers, in
car crashes, all of which have more injuries per capita than bicycles. So,
if it's so commonsensical, why aren't people wearing helmets whenever they
get off the couch?

I can't prove it, but I believe that a helmet would save my life it I fell in
such a way that the side of my head were slapped into a 3" pointed
pyramid-shaped outcropping sticking up from the ground around it.

I don't expect such outcroppings or other rocks on the stairs, in showers, or in
my car - so I'd never think of wearing a helmet there.

Similarly, when I'm riding in conditions where rocks aren't an issue, I may or
may not bother with my helmet - mostly depending on weather and my mood...

I cite that particular example because having my head slapped on the ground hard
enough to knock me out - but a few inches clear of such an outcropping - was
what got me wearing a helmet after heaven-only-knows how many thousand miles of
road riding with the wind in my hair.
--
PeteCresswell

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
wrote:


Read up on Occams Razor.

I've done that long ago, thanks.

You may have read it, but did you _understand_?

Quite well, thank you. FWIW, one of my best friends is a recognized
expert who wrote a college textbook on critical thinking.

Your reaching and hiding in
statistical BS would make Occam hide his head in shame.

:-) In your expert opinion?

See: "Helmet
Poll: First Hand Experience" for what people ae really experiencing.

Yes, I've seen it. An exercise for those who believe "data" is the
plural of "anecdote." You'd get similar positive results by polling
clients of faith healers, you know.

Why _do_ you think national-level studies show different results?
Scientist conspiracies?

- Frank Krygowski

(PeteCresswell) wrote:


I can't prove it, but I believe that a helmet would save my life it I fell in
such a way that the side of my head were slapped into a 3" pointed
pyramid-shaped outcropping sticking up from the ground around it.

I don't expect such outcroppings or other rocks on the stairs, in showers, or in
my car - so I'd never think of wearing a helmet there.

Similarly, when I'm riding in conditions where rocks aren't an issue, I may or
may not bother with my helmet - mostly depending on weather and my mood...

I cite that particular example because having my head slapped on the ground hard
enough to knock me out - but a few inches clear of such an outcropping - was
what got me wearing a helmet after heaven-only-knows how many thousand miles of
road riding with the wind in my hair.

FWIW, I had a somewhat similar experience about ten years ago.

I was on foot. I'd taken the garbage out at night in wintertime.
Coming back to the house, my feet slipped on a film of ice and I went
down like a judo throw, hard on my left side.

As I lay there, I looked down and saw a pointed edge of our sidewalk
that my pelvis had missed by six inches or less. And I instantaneously
thought "Wow. I could have broken my pelvis." I got up, walked into
the house... and to my amazement, started literally shaking.

However, I did _not_ start wearing hip protectors when walking in
winter. And nobody would. As usual, it's only cycling that gets the
"protective equipment" treatment.

- Frank Krygowski

wrote:
Ozark Bicycle wrote:
wrote:


Read up on Occams Razor.

I've done that long ago, thanks.

You may have read it, but did you _understand_?

Quite well, thank you. FWIW, one of my best friends is a recognized
expert who wrote a college textbook on critical thinking.

Your reaching and hiding in
statistical BS would make Occam hide his head in shame.

:-) In your expert opinion?

See: "Helmet
Poll: First Hand Experience" for what people ae really experiencing.

Yes, I've seen it. An exercise for those who believe "data" is the
plural of "anecdote."


Discount real world experiences all you like, that's all you have.

Remember to inflate that doll and "lube up". Have a happy night!


Frank's noctural emissions snipped

"Hadron Quark" wrote in message
...

You seem intent on spouting ridiculous reports which rely on minutae
data to disprove something simple : a helmet protects the head.

So does a baseball cap. The difference in fact isn't large enough between a
bicycle crash helmet and a baseball cap to make much difference. If you WANT
to wear one that's perfectly OK with me. If you want to insist they work I
suggest you actually learn something. Start at the Snell Memorial
Foundation's web site. They will explain if you can understand fairly simple
mathematics, that their standard is pitifully inadequate for purposes of
simple protection in a dead stop fall-over.

After you finished with that you can look at the CPSC helmet standard and
you will see that standard is significantly BELOW the Snell standard.

Now go tune in to the one of the latest issues of Consumer Reports and
WHEEEEEEE - MOST of the helmets BARELY make the lower standard, a
significant number don't even pass that lower standard and the most
expensive helmets are worse that the cheaper ones.

Funny how education might modify the mind of someone who actually has one.

Tell me : do gloves protect the hand? Or because they dont protect
against a chain saw they are equally useless when doing manual labour?
Your whole course of argument is fatally flawed.

If you're trying to protect your hand from a chainsaw with a glove then the
answer is NO. Go that? The BEST gloves won't protect your hand from a chain
saw. Or is it your suggestion that we redefine a gauntlet as a glove so that
you can feel clever?

If you're suggesting that gloves on a bicyclist are not significant
protection for your hands you are incorrect.

A bicycle helmet in the vast majority of serious or fatal bicycle accidents
has NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER!!!

If you're trying to sell helmets as mediating minor head injuries then
indeed we have something to discuss. Perhaps THAT is the reason that you
wear a helmet? After all we have all seen the Bell and Giro ads - "Bicycle
Helmets Help Reduce Minor Injuries".

Someone is holding a big stick covered in tar and gravel : now, would
you prefer them to hit your bald head or your helemted head with it?

I can honestly say that in my 45 years of riding motorcycles all over the
US, road racing, desert racing, cross country, touring, Safety Director for
the American Federation of Motorcyclists, bicycling for the last 20 years,
off road, on road, road racing etc. I have NEVER heard of nor seen a single
head injury caused by a big stick covered in tar and gravel.

And I would be really interested in your discription of this accident in
which a helmet apparently saved your life.

"Bill" wrote in message
...

How about the "Helmets cause over confidence" argument.

That does appear to be the case. Nevertheless the accidents that seem to be
caused by overconfidence seem to me to be more of the riding down hill too
fast and crashing into the hedge sort of thing.

Bicycle helmets
still leave your forehead, nose, and teeth out there to get hit, but
mainly
protect the critical back part of your brain, where a hard whack could
mean
sudden death. I saw a more protective type of helmet in Mountain Bike
Action magazine but it covers the ears and may not be much good for road
riding.

Here's the problem with that - a helmet provides protection by the foam
crushing. You can't make the foam any larger because they the helmet starts
hitting the ground before any other body part. Remember that more people are
killed by the twising motion which scrambles the brains or snaps the neck
than from crushing of the skull.

In these "full coverage" helmets the foam can't be any thicker than in a
standard helmet. They just cover parts of the head that aren't covered in
other helmets and anyone that road bikes will tell you in a second that
wearing a helmet on a hard climb is almost unbearable. I've experimented
myself in riding 50 mile climbing rides with and without a helmet and it
very definitely tires you more to wear a helmet and are incapable of venting
heat from your head on a climb. You can try it yourself if you don't believe
it. After a 50 mile ride I could tell a significant difference in how tired
I was. And that neatly ties in to the Specialized tests which said EXACTLY
the opposite in the "conclusions" and then in the data plainly showed a
large performance drop off in trained riders at lower air speeds.

Here's the worst part of all this - studies show that teaching children the
proper way to ride a bicycle has a trememdous safey impact. And it lasts for
their entire life.

When you promote helmets as providing safety of any sort the world simply
drops the arduous education and just says "Always wear your helmet".

I've got this idea that Sori and Hadron Quark are a couple of really geeky
guys and they want everyone to wear helmets so that they don't feel too out
of place.

And to repeat for the 1000th time: 90% of all accidents are minor as are 90%
of all head injuries (unfortunately something like 75% of minor head
injuries are to the chin, ears or face but nevertheless). We BELIEVE that
helmets can mediate these sorts of injuries but we cannot cite any studies.
These are good enough reasons for most people to wear a helmet and there's
no criticism of these people.

Those whom we do criticize are the idiots who seem to repeat endlessly,
"Helmets Save Lives". They don't and there's 15 years of DMV data proving
that point beyond any question.

"GaryG" wrote in message
...

And you're complaining about others not adequately "studying the
issues"???
The example you cite, and the paragraph above are anecdotal hearsay...at
best.

Well, the San Jose Mercury printed a story many years ago from the Director
of Advertising for Specialized helmets and he was laughing and said that
they had a tiny advertsing budget because the safety freaks were more than
happy to spend all their own money to promote helmets.