Waxing Chains?

"nThe Mighty Ant" considered Thu, 24 Nov 2016
18:14:45 +0700 the perfect time to write:

On Wed, 23 Nov 2016 23:53:01 +0000, Phil Lee
wrote:

John B Slocomb considered Wed, 23 Nov 2016
14:33:33 +0700 the perfect time to write:

On Wed, 23 Nov 2016 00:33:21 +0000, Phil Lee
wrote:

John B Slocomb considered Tue, 22 Nov 2016
08:50:40 +0700 the perfect time to write:

On Mon, 21 Nov 2016 08:34:25 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 11/20/2016 4:51 PM, John B Slocomb wrote:

Does anyone have any statistics regarding the length of time paraffin
wax lasts as a chain lubricant? Either in miles/kilometers ridden,
days/months between lube jobs, or other statistics?

When I used to use wax I used to re-wax probably every two weeks or so
but wonder whether a more relaxed schedule might be sufficient?

You can't go by time _or_ mileage, there are other factors as well.
What's the weather? Are you mixing oil in with the wax so there is a
lubricant still present once the wax is displaced?

What the Experts say About Chain Waxing:

"When wax was popular, we'd get customers coming in all the time
complaining about shifting problems on their bikes. Removed the wax and
lubed with conventional stuff and voila, shifting back to normal." Mike
Jacoubowsky, co-owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles.

I'm not sure I believe that. I used wax, applied at high temperatures
and allowed to harden with both down tube friction shifters and
"Brifters" and never had a single instance of shifting problems.

"Wax is not mobile and cannot return to a location from which it has
been removed by rotation of one part on another." Jobst Brandt, author
of The Bicycle Wheel

"If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often.
In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very
quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas." Craig
Metalcraft, manufacturer of Super Link III.

"Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal
of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or
grease." Sheldon Brown

"Paraffin (canning wax), although clean, works poorly because it is not
mobile and cannot replenish the bearing surfaces once it has been
displaced. This becomes apparent with any water that gets on the chain.
It immediately squeaks.

[I have found that motor oil works poorly: it washes out of the chain
due to its detergent properties -- John Allen.]"

Of course Jon Allen is clueless, and it hurts to see him wrecking
Sheldon's web site. You don't use detergent oil on a chain, if you are
going to use motor oil then you use non-detergent oil, i.e.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0052KYAMC


And even more recently a bloke who actually measures the effectiveness
of paraffin wax says it is the most effective lubricant. Most of the
above just talked a good race.

Can you show me a definitive test of the suitability of paraffin as a
lubricant by any of the above?

Note John Allen, above on the detergent qualities of motor oil. The
word, when applied to motor oil means the ability to dissolve and hold
in suspension foreign matter, i.e., dirt and metal particles. It
doesn't include water. Ask anyone that has gotten water in an engine's
oil. It doesn't form a solution and does separates into the two
components, water and oil, very rapidly.

Which is then rapidly forced into a messy emulsion when agitated by
the engine's operation.

Not really. In fact water in the oil is not exactly an uncommon
happening in marine engines. the solution is to drain the mixture - it
looks sort of like milk - and refill with oil. Crank up the engine,
fun for a few minutes and check the oil. Continue until oil stays oil.
Obviulsly one changes the oil filter :-)

Less common now than in the days when plain water was used as coolant
in summer, but I've seen enough cases of mayonnaise in the oil filler
to be able to instantly recognise that kind of failure - and to
include a check for it as a matter of course.
On detergents in motor oil, that is the major difference between that
intended for petrol (gasoline) and diesel engines. Lubricant for
diesels needs far more detergent if it is not going to turn into
sludge.

Strange how diesel engines ran on just plain old oil, from their
invention until sometime in the 1950's or 60's.... what's that? 70 or
80 years, maybe?

You mean until they started working to extend change intervals then?
On diesels where very extended intervals are worthwhile, they've been
using centrifugal "filters" for a very long time, which is an
alternative way around the problem to using high detergent levels to
keep the soot in suspension.

I would have to ask whether your centrifugal filters were in the fuel
or the oil systems?

Oil, in every case I've seen, although I don't doubt that they are
also used in some fuel systems - they are very effective at removing
very small particles without being subject to clogging up (the worst
that happens is that they just don't remove any more particles).
You can even get a conversion for many diesel road vehicles which adds
a centrifugal filter to the original arrangement in order to allow
change intervals to be extended.
Some types use a replaceable canister, while others are designed so
that the "cake" of compacted particles can be pressed or scraped out
and disposed of. Oddly, the only vehicle I've ever owned myself with
such a filter was a motorcycle - in that instance, it was designed to
be cleaned rather than replaced (and why not? - there's no element to
be clogged up!).
Several of the Heavy goods vehicles I operated while working in the
trucking industry were equipped with centrifugal filters, although
that's long enough ago that I can't remember which models, or even
makes. And of course, as a hired driver I wouldn't have any idea if
they were standard fitment or additional equipment fitted by the fleet
owner anyway. They could even be market specific.

I've seen many. many centrifugal fuel cleaning
devices, very common in stationary and marine power plant systems, but
I can't remember ever seeing a centrifugal oil filter.... which is not
to say that they don't exist but rather that I have never come across
one installed on an engine.

I did come across one compression ignition single cylinder engine that
operated 50, or perhaps more, well pumps by means of a whole web of
pull lines. The Motorman said that he had been there for 10 years and
the engine had never been shut down while he was there.... and that it
was running when he got there. Not a sign of either fuel or oil filter
to be seen. :-)

That seems strange, to say the least, unless maybe it was using a
total loss lubrication system - quite practical if you can arrange for
the loss to go into the output of the oil well, along with the crude.
On a slow running engine, the oil consumption need not be all that
high - total loss systems were common on steam railway locomotives,
for example - Just top the oil feed up to the line once a day, week,
or whatever.

considered Thu, 24 Nov 2016 10:58:46 -0800 (PST)
the perfect time to write:

On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 5:33:14 AM UTC-8, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
https://www.google.com/#q=oil+centrifuge&tbm=shop

Err - those expensive devices are for cleaning WASTE oil and not that being used in a vehicle.

Err, read down the list a bit and you'll find a number that aren't,
but are for cars, vans and motorcycles.

On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 04:13:31 +0000, Phil Lee
wrote:

"nThe Mighty Ant" considered Thu, 24 Nov 2016
18:14:45 +0700 the perfect time to write:

On Wed, 23 Nov 2016 23:53:01 +0000, Phil Lee
wrote:

John B Slocomb considered Wed, 23 Nov 2016
14:33:33 +0700 the perfect time to write:

On Wed, 23 Nov 2016 00:33:21 +0000, Phil Lee
wrote:

John B Slocomb considered Tue, 22 Nov 2016
08:50:40 +0700 the perfect time to write:

On Mon, 21 Nov 2016 08:34:25 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 11/20/2016 4:51 PM, John B Slocomb wrote:

Does anyone have any statistics regarding the length of time paraffin
wax lasts as a chain lubricant? Either in miles/kilometers ridden,
days/months between lube jobs, or other statistics?

When I used to use wax I used to re-wax probably every two weeks or so
but wonder whether a more relaxed schedule might be sufficient?

You can't go by time _or_ mileage, there are other factors as well.
What's the weather? Are you mixing oil in with the wax so there is a
lubricant still present once the wax is displaced?

What the Experts say About Chain Waxing:

"When wax was popular, we'd get customers coming in all the time
complaining about shifting problems on their bikes. Removed the wax and
lubed with conventional stuff and voila, shifting back to normal." Mike
Jacoubowsky, co-owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles.

I'm not sure I believe that. I used wax, applied at high temperatures
and allowed to harden with both down tube friction shifters and
"Brifters" and never had a single instance of shifting problems.

"Wax is not mobile and cannot return to a location from which it has
been removed by rotation of one part on another." Jobst Brandt, author
of The Bicycle Wheel

"If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often.
In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very
quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas." Craig
Metalcraft, manufacturer of Super Link III.

"Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal
of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or
grease." Sheldon Brown

"Paraffin (canning wax), although clean, works poorly because it is not
mobile and cannot replenish the bearing surfaces once it has been
displaced. This becomes apparent with any water that gets on the chain.
It immediately squeaks.

[I have found that motor oil works poorly: it washes out of the chain
due to its detergent properties -- John Allen.]"

Of course Jon Allen is clueless, and it hurts to see him wrecking
Sheldon's web site. You don't use detergent oil on a chain, if you are
going to use motor oil then you use non-detergent oil, i.e.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0052KYAMC


And even more recently a bloke who actually measures the effectiveness
of paraffin wax says it is the most effective lubricant. Most of the
above just talked a good race.

Can you show me a definitive test of the suitability of paraffin as a
lubricant by any of the above?

Note John Allen, above on the detergent qualities of motor oil. The
word, when applied to motor oil means the ability to dissolve and hold
in suspension foreign matter, i.e., dirt and metal particles. It
doesn't include water. Ask anyone that has gotten water in an engine's
oil. It doesn't form a solution and does separates into the two
components, water and oil, very rapidly.

Which is then rapidly forced into a messy emulsion when agitated by
the engine's operation.

Not really. In fact water in the oil is not exactly an uncommon
happening in marine engines. the solution is to drain the mixture - it
looks sort of like milk - and refill with oil. Crank up the engine,
fun for a few minutes and check the oil. Continue until oil stays oil.
Obviulsly one changes the oil filter :-)

Less common now than in the days when plain water was used as coolant
in summer, but I've seen enough cases of mayonnaise in the oil filler
to be able to instantly recognise that kind of failure - and to
include a check for it as a matter of course.
On detergents in motor oil, that is the major difference between that
intended for petrol (gasoline) and diesel engines. Lubricant for
diesels needs far more detergent if it is not going to turn into
sludge.

Strange how diesel engines ran on just plain old oil, from their
invention until sometime in the 1950's or 60's.... what's that? 70 or
80 years, maybe?

You mean until they started working to extend change intervals then?
On diesels where very extended intervals are worthwhile, they've been
using centrifugal "filters" for a very long time, which is an
alternative way around the problem to using high detergent levels to
keep the soot in suspension.

I would have to ask whether your centrifugal filters were in the fuel
or the oil systems?

Oil, in every case I've seen, although I don't doubt that they are
also used in some fuel systems - they are very effective at removing
very small particles without being subject to clogging up (the worst
that happens is that they just don't remove any more particles).
You can even get a conversion for many diesel road vehicles which adds
a centrifugal filter to the original arrangement in order to allow
change intervals to be extended.
Some types use a replaceable canister, while others are designed so
that the "cake" of compacted particles can be pressed or scraped out
and disposed of. Oddly, the only vehicle I've ever owned myself with
such a filter was a motorcycle - in that instance, it was designed to
be cleaned rather than replaced (and why not? - there's no element to
be clogged up!).
Several of the Heavy goods vehicles I operated while working in the
trucking industry were equipped with centrifugal filters, although
that's long enough ago that I can't remember which models, or even
makes. And of course, as a hired driver I wouldn't have any idea if
they were standard fitment or additional equipment fitted by the fleet
owner anyway. They could even be market specific.

I've seen many. many centrifugal fuel cleaning
devices, very common in stationary and marine power plant systems, but
I can't remember ever seeing a centrifugal oil filter.... which is not
to say that they don't exist but rather that I have never come across
one installed on an engine.

I did come across one compression ignition single cylinder engine that
operated 50, or perhaps more, well pumps by means of a whole web of
pull lines. The Motorman said that he had been there for 10 years and
the engine had never been shut down while he was there.... and that it
was running when he got there. Not a sign of either fuel or oil filter
to be seen. :-)

That seems strange, to say the least, unless maybe it was using a
total loss lubrication system - quite practical if you can arrange for
the loss to go into the output of the oil well, along with the crude.
On a slow running engine, the oil consumption need not be all that
high - total loss systems were common on steam railway locomotives,
for example - Just top the oil feed up to the line once a day, week,
or whatever.

The engine was a single cylinder "Semi diesel" - perhaps Usian
terminology - a partially compression ignition engine that used a
heated steel plug screwed into the cylinder head as a sort of "glow
plug" to get it started. It ran on crude oil straight out of the flow
line but I'm not sure how the crude got into the cylinder - injection
or carburetor? Big heavy external flywheels, maybe 5 - 6 feet in
diameter and a spirited 50 RPM, or so :-)

But I've worked around diesel engines ranging from little 1 cylinder
generators to 3,500 Hp prime movers, for a lot of years, and had/have
never seen a centrifugal oil filtering device. In fact the largest
engine I have been daily associated with had only large cartridge
filters - two in parallel with valveing to allow them to be switch in
or out of service. These were engines equipped with external oil tanks
and level control valveing to maintain crankcase oil level
automatically.

To repeat, this is not an indication of whether centrifugal filters
exist or not.

In fact, I have never seen any particular problem with diesel engines
and oil and while they weren't compression ignition engines I do have
experience with kerosene fueled (very close to diesel fuel) engines
that certainly predated detergent oil. My father owned and used a
Fordson tractor, that certainly dated in the late '30's, that ran on
kerosene and as I remember it had no oil filters at all. I also worked
on a International Harvester (I believe) kerosene fueled engine in an
old crane. I can't even estimate the date of this jewel except to say
that it had 1 inch threaded sparkplug's that could be disassembled for
cleaning :-)

Admittedly I have no experience with over the road heavy trucking but
I do have experience with heavy (50 ton) Oil Field trucks, but of
course these vehicles are only used when moving or supplying a rig.

On the other hand, marine craft with approximately truck sized power
plants - say 6 to 12-71 GMC - which were operated for days at a time
on occasion didn't seem to have oil problems either.

On 25/11/16 23:03, John B Slocomb wrote:


But I've worked around diesel engines ranging from little 1 cylinder
generators to 3,500 Hp prime movers, for a lot of years, and had/have
never seen a centrifugal oil filtering device.

"The TD5 Disco actually has 2 oil filters, a standard one as do all cars
and also a centrifugal one as well."

http://www.discovery2.co.uk/oil_change.html

--
JS

On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 3:54:10 PM UTC-5, James wrote:
On 25/11/16 23:03, John B Slocomb wrote:


But I've worked around diesel engines ranging from little 1 cylinder
generators to 3,500 Hp prime movers, for a lot of years, and had/have
never seen a centrifugal oil filtering device.

"The TD5 Disco actually has 2 oil filters, a standard one as do all cars
and also a centrifugal one as well."

http://www.discovery2.co.uk/oil_change.html

--
JS

a thought....diesel compression can produce head water leaks into oil on the road....

On Sat, 26 Nov 2016 07:54:03 +1100, James
wrote:

On 25/11/16 23:03, John B Slocomb wrote:


But I've worked around diesel engines ranging from little 1 cylinder
generators to 3,500 Hp prime movers, for a lot of years, and had/have
never seen a centrifugal oil filtering device.

"The TD5 Disco actually has 2 oil filters, a standard one as do all cars
and also a centrifugal one as well."

http://www.discovery2.co.uk/oil_change.html

I don't doubt it a bit. Nor did I ever imply that there were no such
thing.

I simply stated that is, in some 70 years of working on, using, simply
being around, internal combustion engines I had never seen one.
The implication was that, at least in the U.S., centrifugal oil
filters weren't exactly common.

For example, I was once in an electrical generating plant that had two
electrical powered, stand alone, centrifugal fuel filters filtering
all fuel that entered the plant. The 5 prime movers had simple
cartridge oil filters.

On 26/11/16 11:52, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 26 Nov 2016 07:54:03 +1100, James
wrote:

On 25/11/16 23:03, John B Slocomb wrote:


But I've worked around diesel engines ranging from little 1 cylinder
generators to 3,500 Hp prime movers, for a lot of years, and had/have
never seen a centrifugal oil filtering device.

"The TD5 Disco actually has 2 oil filters, a standard one as do all cars
and also a centrifugal one as well."

http://www.discovery2.co.uk/oil_change.html

I don't doubt it a bit. Nor did I ever imply that there were no such
thing.

I simply stated that is, in some 70 years of working on, using, simply
being around, internal combustion engines I had never seen one.
The implication was that, at least in the U.S., centrifugal oil
filters weren't exactly common.

For example, I was once in an electrical generating plant that had two
electrical powered, stand alone, centrifugal fuel filters filtering
all fuel that entered the plant. The 5 prime movers had simple
cartridge oil filters.



Whatever. I was only giving an example of one I had come across in
recent years. (Not on my vehicle.)

--
JS

On Sat, 26 Nov 2016 15:35:05 +1100, James
wrote:

On 26/11/16 11:52, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 26 Nov 2016 07:54:03 +1100, James
wrote:

On 25/11/16 23:03, John B Slocomb wrote:


But I've worked around diesel engines ranging from little 1 cylinder
generators to 3,500 Hp prime movers, for a lot of years, and had/have
never seen a centrifugal oil filtering device.

"The TD5 Disco actually has 2 oil filters, a standard one as do all cars
and also a centrifugal one as well."

http://www.discovery2.co.uk/oil_change.html

I don't doubt it a bit. Nor did I ever imply that there were no such
thing.

I simply stated that is, in some 70 years of working on, using, simply
being around, internal combustion engines I had never seen one.
The implication was that, at least in the U.S., centrifugal oil
filters weren't exactly common.

For example, I was once in an electrical generating plant that had two
electrical powered, stand alone, centrifugal fuel filters filtering
all fuel that entered the plant. The 5 prime movers had simple
cartridge oil filters.



Whatever. I was only giving an example of one I had come across in
recent years. (Not on my vehicle.)

Out of curiosity was that model Land Rover very common? I had read
that the engine was not a German design and that Land Rover had some
sort of special agreement to allow them to use the design.

On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 3:54:10 PM UTC-5, James wrote:
On 25/11/16 23:03, John B Slocomb wrote:


But I've worked around diesel engines ranging from little 1 cylinder
generators to 3,500 Hp prime movers, for a lot of years, and had/have
never seen a centrifugal oil filtering device.

"The TD5 Disco actually has 2 oil filters, a standard one as do all cars
and also a centrifugal one as well."

http://www.discovery2.co.uk/oil_change.html

--
JS

goo.gl/LGtUnI

outback outback

On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 8:18:33 PM UTC-8, Phil Lee wrote:
considered Thu, 24 Nov 2016 10:58:46 -0800 (PST)
the perfect time to write:

On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 5:33:14 AM UTC-8, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
https://www.google.com/#q=oil+centrifuge&tbm=shop

Err - those expensive devices are for cleaning WASTE oil and not that being used in a vehicle.

Err, read down the list a bit and you'll find a number that aren't,
but are for cars, vans and motorcycles.

These are expensive devices that clog very rapidly and have to be cleaned more often than filters are replaced. The very large one's that are used in trucks take this into account and are large enough not to cause excessive problems.

I drove 250 miles over the last three days with my Ford Torus almost entirely on the freeway AT THE SPEED LIMIT and made 35 mpg. Having a plastic oil sump on top of the engine where you can see when it needs replacing and flushing is as good as anything.