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#11
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Lance learns the truth...
Paladin wrote:
Unlike most sports champions, Lance is a great role model, and when you consider what he's overcome, and how he's done it, and where's he gotten, even a hero. You won't hear that kinda talk from me about any other GR's, but Lance is the true exception to the rule. Paladin But he ain't no saint. He's an actual, everyday dude from a poor family who made his own way. This limits his utility as a role model for (some) children. -- -- Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall "I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we could to protect our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security." --Microsoft VP in charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine. |
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#12
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Lance learns the truth...
Sorni wrote:
"Raptor" wrote in message ... Paladin wrote: Unlike most sports champions, Lance is a great role model, and when you consider what he's overcome, and how he's done it, and where's he gotten, even a hero. You won't hear that kinda talk from me about any other GR's, but Lance is the true exception to the rule. Paladin But he ain't no saint. He's an actual, everyday dude from a poor family who made his own way. This limits his utility as a role model for (some) children. Um, how? While I agree L.A.'s hardly perfect -- I'm sure he can be arrogant, self-centered, demanding, etc. -- his story and achievements are what serve as inspirations. I don't see how being "an everyday dude from a poor family who made his own way" limits his "utility as a role model". Quite the opposite, one would think. (And hope.) Just trying to get your point. Bill A hint: I live in Utah, and have for many years. I probably should have mentioned his potty mouth (not too bad by most standards) and agnosticism. I for one respect the hell out of the guy. -- -- Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall "I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we could to protect our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security." --Microsoft VP in charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine. |
#13
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Lance learns the truth...
Raptor wrote:
Sorni wrote: "Raptor" wrote in message ... Paladin wrote: Unlike most sports champions, Lance is a great role model, and when you consider what he's overcome, and how he's done it, and where's he gotten, even a hero. You won't hear that kinda talk from me about any other GR's, but Lance is the true exception to the rule. Paladin But he ain't no saint. He's an actual, everyday dude from a poor family who made his own way. This limits his utility as a role model for (some) children. Um, how? While I agree L.A.'s hardly perfect -- I'm sure he can be arrogant, self-centered, demanding, etc. -- his story and achievements are what serve as inspirations. I don't see how being "an everyday dude from a poor family who made his own way" limits his "utility as a role model". Quite the opposite, one would think. (And hope.) Just trying to get your point. Bill A hint: I live in Utah, and have for many years. I probably should have mentioned his potty mouth (not too bad by most standards) and agnosticism. I for one respect the hell out of the guy. You're scaring me here. Why is it he has limited "utility as a role model"? Because you have heard him swear and he may not believe in God. I suppose one decides on role models based on their own personal beliefs. I for one would like my kids to group up with a similar work ethic and appreciation for those around him who helped him get there. Listening to Mr. Armstrong's interviews on OLN recently, I really appreciate his attitude. He comes across as one who never blames others for his problems, understands he has good and bad days, realizes that although this is important, it is just a game. These are traits I want my childern to have and would like to continue to develope in myself. Because he may have beliefs that don't match mine should be of little importance, and in fact, should also be appreciated as a good role model, one who believes what they believe indpendent of those around him. Sorry Mr. Raptor, I just don't agree with you. -- Craig Brossman, Durango Colorado (remove ".nospam" to reply) |
#14
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Lance learns the truth...
"Craig Brossman" wrote in message news Raptor wrote: Sorni wrote: "Raptor" wrote in message ... Paladin wrote: Unlike most sports champions, Lance is a great role model, and when you consider what he's overcome, and how he's done it, and where's he gotten, even a hero. You won't hear that kinda talk from me about any other GR's, but Lance is the true exception to the rule. Paladin But he ain't no saint. He's an actual, everyday dude from a poor family who made his own way. This limits his utility as a role model for (some) children. Um, how? While I agree L.A.'s hardly perfect -- I'm sure he can be arrogant, self-centered, demanding, etc. -- his story and achievements are what serve as inspirations. I don't see how being "an everyday dude from a poor family who made his own way" limits his "utility as a role model". Quite the opposite, one would think. (And hope.) Just trying to get your point. Bill A hint: I live in Utah, and have for many years. I probably should have mentioned his potty mouth (not too bad by most standards) and agnosticism. I for one respect the hell out of the guy. You're scaring me here. Why is it he has limited "utility as a role model"? Because you have heard him swear and he may not believe in God. I suppose one decides on role models based on their own personal beliefs. I for one would like my kids to group up with a similar work ethic and appreciation for those around him who helped him get there. Listening to Mr. Armstrong's interviews on OLN recently, I really appreciate his attitude. He comes across as one who never blames others for his problems, understands he has good and bad days, realizes that although this is important, it is just a game. These are traits I want my childern to have and would like to continue to develope in myself. Because he may have beliefs that don't match mine should be of little importance, and in fact, should also be appreciated as a good role model, one who believes what they believe indpendent of those around him. Sorry Mr. Raptor, I just don't agree with you. Not to speak for the Rapstor, Craig, but I think he was commenting/slagging on UTAH-ians' holier-than-Lance attitudes, not his own. I didn't get it first time, either. Bill "oops, I'm not doing this any more" S. |
#15
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Lance learns the truth...
Sorni wrote:
"Craig Brossman" wrote in message news Raptor wrote: Sorni wrote: "Raptor" wrote in message ... Paladin wrote: Unlike most sports champions, Lance is a great role model, and when you consider what he's overcome, and how he's done it, and where's he gotten, even a hero. You won't hear that kinda talk from me about any other GR's, but Lance is the true exception to the rule. Paladin But he ain't no saint. He's an actual, everyday dude from a poor family who made his own way. This limits his utility as a role model for (some) children. Um, how? While I agree L.A.'s hardly perfect -- I'm sure he can be arrogant, self-centered, demanding, etc. -- his story and achievements are what serve as inspirations. I don't see how being "an everyday dude from a poor family who made his own way" limits his "utility as a role model". Quite the opposite, one would think. (And hope.) Just trying to get your point. Bill A hint: I live in Utah, and have for many years. I probably should have mentioned his potty mouth (not too bad by most standards) and agnosticism. I for one respect the hell out of the guy. You're scaring me here. Why is it he has limited "utility as a role model"? Because you have heard him swear and he may not believe in God. I suppose one decides on role models based on their own personal beliefs. I for one would like my kids to group up with a similar work ethic and appreciation for those around him who helped him get there. Listening to Mr. Armstrong's interviews on OLN recently, I really appreciate his attitude. He comes across as one who never blames others for his problems, understands he has good and bad days, realizes that although this is important, it is just a game. These are traits I want my childern to have and would like to continue to develope in myself. Because he may have beliefs that don't match mine should be of little importance, and in fact, should also be appreciated as a good role model, one who believes what they believe indpendent of those around him. Sorry Mr. Raptor, I just don't agree with you. Not to speak for the Rapstor, Craig, but I think he was commenting/slagging on UTAH-ians' holier-than-Lance attitudes, not his own. I didn't get it first time, either. Bill "oops, I'm not doing this any more" S. Thanks Mr. Bill. Perhaps you are correct and I have missed the point. Mr. Raptor "seems" to make the statement that "it limits his utility ...", I just want to point out that I think Mr. Armstrong has sufficient utility as a role model, perhaps not in every area, but then again a hammer has utility but I never use it to cook. If I took it all wrong Mr. Raptor, sorry, otherwise I'm not. -- Craig Brossman, Durango Colorado (remove ".nospam" to reply) |
#16
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Lance learns the truth...
Craig Brossman wrote:
Raptor wrote: Sorni wrote: "Raptor" wrote in message ... Paladin wrote: Unlike most sports champions, Lance is a great role model, and when you consider what he's overcome, and how he's done it, and where's he gotten, even a hero. You won't hear that kinda talk from me about any other GR's, but Lance is the true exception to the rule. Paladin But he ain't no saint. He's an actual, everyday dude from a poor family who made his own way. This limits his utility as a role model for (some) children. Um, how? While I agree L.A.'s hardly perfect -- I'm sure he can be arrogant, self-centered, demanding, etc. -- his story and achievements are what serve as inspirations. I don't see how being "an everyday dude from a poor family who made his own way" limits his "utility as a role model". Quite the opposite, one would think. (And hope.) Just trying to get your point. Bill A hint: I live in Utah, and have for many years. I probably should have mentioned his potty mouth (not too bad by most standards) and agnosticism. I for one respect the hell out of the guy. You're scaring me here. Why is it he has limited "utility as a role model"? Because you have heard him swear and he may not believe in God. I suppose one decides on role models based on their own personal beliefs. I for one would like my kids to group up with a similar work ethic and appreciation for those around him who helped him get there. Listening to Mr. Armstrong's interviews on OLN recently, I really appreciate his attitude. He comes across as one who never blames others for his problems, understands he has good and bad days, realizes that although this is important, it is just a game. When/if I have kids, I'll ask them to work and live to the standards set by LANCE Armstrong and John Stockton, plus any non-sports heroes I can think of (certain firefighters, doctors, the usual). These are traits I want my childern to have and would like to continue to develope in myself. Because he may have beliefs that don't match mine should be of little importance, and in fact, should also be appreciated as a good role model, one who believes what they believe indpendent of those around him. Sorry Mr. Raptor, I just don't agree with you. I know I'm not communicating it all that clearly. I meant that many don't consider LANCE to be a useful role model simply because he's a real guy. I don't agree with them. -- -- Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall "I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we could to protect our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security." --Microsoft VP in charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine. |
#17
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Lance learns the truth...
bomba wrote in message ...
Paladin wrote: Unlike most sports champions, Lance is a great role model, and when you consider what he's overcome, and how he's done it, and where's he gotten, even a hero. You won't hear that kinda talk from me about any other GR's, but Lance is the true exception to the rule. You may one day come to eat those words... Sure, no doubt it's possible, as it happens fairly regularly, but is there any aspect of the statement in particular you're focusing on? More roadies are good role models? Lance isn't a good one? ?? Paladin |
#18
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Lance learns the truth...
bomba said...
I think one has to accept that the higher echelons of road cycling are deeply competitive and it pays to have a healthy scepticism when it comes to their performance. I'm not going to make any unfounded claims, but history has shown that 'Le Tour' is rife with those capitalising on performance enhancement. I agree with your skepticism, but let's not forget that only a tiny amount of time over may hours of racing separates the top riders. Therefore if we are going to condemn one, we have to condemn them all. Lance has admitted to visiting at least one doctor who was known to dispense performance enhancing drugs, but if he does take these drugs he has managed to keep it a tidy secret. I have to wonder if such a secret could be kept over the years without a few particulars leaking out. Another thing to consider is that Lance's endurance may not be his only advantage. Let's not forget the vast resources of his sponsors. You can't buy Lance's bike at any bike dealer at any price. Some Europeans like to think that Americans are a bunch of illiterate morons, but the truth is that no other single country has such a huge reservoir of technical and manufacturing expertise, and Lance gets to tap into that. I forget the name of the doctor, but a specialist called as witness during the Festina trial testified that it was physically impossible for a human to have climbed the Alpe d'Huez in 2000(?) in the time that Armstrong did, without 'help'. Just worth bearing in mind. I'm surprised that any scientist would make such a ridiculous statement. It is completely unprovable, therefore it is at best an opinion, not a fact. If a doctor actually said this, then it only reveals his personal bias, and it says a lot more about this doctor than it does about Lance Armstrong. |
#19
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Lance learns the truth...
Super Slinky wrote:
I think one has to accept that the higher echelons of road cycling are deeply competitive and it pays to have a healthy scepticism when it comes to their performance. I'm not going to make any unfounded claims, but history has shown that 'Le Tour' is rife with those capitalising on performance enhancement. I agree with your skepticism, but let's not forget that only a tiny amount of time over may hours of racing separates the top riders. Therefore if we are going to condemn one, we have to condemn them all. My personal opinion is that they are competing on pretty much a level playing field, albeit a field on a different plain to everyone else. Lance has admitted to visiting at least one doctor who was known to dispense performance enhancing drugs, but if he does take these drugs he has managed to keep it a tidy secret. I have to wonder if such a secret could be kept over the years without a few particulars leaking out. I think most want to prevent a repeat of the Festina affair, and if, as I suspect, everyone is in on it, then spilling the beans on one could bring the whole house of cards crashing down. Another thing to consider is that Lance's endurance may not be his only advantage. Let's not forget the vast resources of his sponsors. You can't buy Lance's bike at any bike dealer at any price. Some Europeans like to think that Americans are a bunch of illiterate morons, ....not saying a thing... but the truth is that no other single country has such a huge reservoir of technical and manufacturing expertise, and Lance gets to tap into that. I think the quality of his bike is totally irrelevant. I forget the name of the doctor, but a specialist called as witness during the Festina trial testified that it was physically impossible for a human to have climbed the Alpe d'Huez in 2000(?) in the time that Armstrong did, without 'help'. Just worth bearing in mind. I'm surprised that any scientist would make such a ridiculous statement. It is completely unprovable, therefore it is at best an opinion, not a fact. I don't know under which criteria the claim was made, but I'm sure there was sufficient basis for his opinion. If a doctor actually said this, then it only reveals his personal bias, and it says a lot more about this doctor than it does about Lance Armstrong. As I say, I don't know the ins and outs of the statement, but you don't get to be an expert witness in a trial of that magnitude without some sort of credence. |
#20
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Lance learns the truth...
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 13:43:32 +0200, bomba wrote:
Super Slinky wrote: I think one has to accept that the higher echelons of road cycling are deeply competitive and it pays to have a healthy scepticism when it comes to their performance. I'm not going to make any unfounded claims, but history has shown that 'Le Tour' is rife with those capitalising on performance enhancement. I agree with your skepticism, but let's not forget that only a tiny amount of time over may hours of racing separates the top riders. Therefore if we are going to condemn one, we have to condemn them all. My personal opinion is that they are competing on pretty much a level playing field, albeit a field on a different plain to everyone else. Lance has admitted to visiting at least one doctor who was known to dispense performance enhancing drugs, but if he does take these drugs he has managed to keep it a tidy secret. I have to wonder if such a secret could be kept over the years without a few particulars leaking out. I think most want to prevent a repeat of the Festina affair, and if, as I suspect, everyone is in on it, then spilling the beans on one could bring the whole house of cards crashing down. Another thing to consider is that Lance's endurance may not be his only advantage. Let's not forget the vast resources of his sponsors. You can't buy Lance's bike at any bike dealer at any price. Some Europeans like to think that Americans are a bunch of illiterate morons, ...not saying a thing... but the truth is that no other single country has such a huge reservoir of technical and manufacturing expertise, and Lance gets to tap into that. I think the quality of his bike is totally irrelevant. I forget the name of the doctor, but a specialist called as witness during the Festina trial testified that it was physically impossible for a human to have climbed the Alpe d'Huez in 2000(?) in the time that Armstrong did, without 'help'. Just worth bearing in mind. I'm surprised that any scientist would make such a ridiculous statement. It is completely unprovable, therefore it is at best an opinion, not a fact. I don't know under which criteria the claim was made, but I'm sure there was sufficient basis for his opinion. If a doctor actually said this, then it only reveals his personal bias, and it says a lot more about this doctor than it does about Lance Armstrong. As I say, I don't know the ins and outs of the statement, but you don't get to be an expert witness in a trial of that magnitude without some sort of credence. You just call yourself an expert (at least in the US). That's all it takes to be an expert in a trial. -- Bob M in CT Remove 'x.' to reply |
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