WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE

Still Just Me wrote:
On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 19:43:05 -0700, jim beam
wrote:

Aluminum can be a fine material with which to make a bike frame. And it
can be a poor choice, as I am sure you already know.
you're such a ****ing retard timmy, i can't even be bothered to put your
dumb ass straight. and not only are you ****ing retarded, you're BORING
and ****ing retarded.

Oh, oh, JB is into his namesake again.

is that the best you've got? why not dazzle us with your elastomer
bonding theory? maybe you have a spoke fatigue theory too?

Michael Press wrote:

*Tim McNamara wrote:

*Michael Press wrote:

It is not a custom frame unless you consult in person with a master
frame maker. He talks with you, watches you ride, then builds the
exact frame that you need. Mailing in dimensions is just that.

How about if you consult with a non-master framebuilder? *;-)

What do you think? The idea is to hire the best advice
you can if you want a custom frame. Otherwise it is
semi-custom.

You presume the framebuilding expert would understand more about your
riding than you do. Building well and coaching well are very
different skills, and I imagine they are usually exclusive of each
other. In any case, I don't think a custom frame buyer would usually
be best served by letting the builder tell him what he wants.

If I had done that with any of the several frambuilders I approached,
I would have gotten a frame with roughly 17" chainstays, when really I
needed 21" to maintain normal proportions.

Chalo

Chalo wrote:
Michael Press wrote:
�Tim McNamara wrote:
�Michael Press wrote:
It is not a custom frame unless you consult in person with a master
frame maker. He talks with you, watches you ride, then builds the
exact frame that you need. Mailing in dimensions is just that.
How about if you consult with a non-master framebuilder? �;-)
What do you think? The idea is to hire the best advice
you can if you want a custom frame. Otherwise it is
semi-custom.

You presume the framebuilding expert would understand more about your
riding than you do.

so what variables does a steel frame builder have at their disposal
chalo? how much math do they do?


Building well and coaching well are very
different skills, and I imagine they are usually exclusive of each
other. In any case, I don't think a custom frame buyer would usually
be best served by letting the builder tell him what he wants.

all they typically, and all they basically /can/ do, given the
limitations of tubesets available, is make something to a certain size.
beyond that, their parameters are pretty much fixed. and i've yet to
meet a steel frame artisan that does any math to address things like shimmy.



If I had done that with any of the several frambuilders I approached,
I would have gotten a frame with roughly 17" chainstays, when really I
needed 21" to maintain normal proportions.

so how exactly does greater elasticity serve you then big guy?

In article ,
Michael Press wrote:

In article ,
Tim McNamara wrote:

In article ,
Michael Press wrote:

In article

,
landotter wrote:

On Apr 24, 7:45*pm, Andre Jute wrote:
WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE [drivelsnip]

No, a Waterford is a work of art made by craftsmen. They are
very pretty and that's why, if you have a couple grand burning
a hole in your pocket, and love bicycles, you should buy one.
If indeed it's the bike your heart desires. They do seem a few
hundred bux overpriced to me--but whadda I know? That might be
due to fancy dropouts or laquer or something I'm missing.
People spend more on Harley farts.

It is not a custom frame unless you consult in person with a
master frame maker. He talks with you, watches you ride, then
builds the exact frame that you need. Mailing in dimensions is
just that.

How about if you consult with a non-master framebuilder? ;-)

What do you think? The idea is to hire the best advice you can if you
want a custom frame. Otherwise it is semi-custom.

I built a frame for myself to my specification. It's a custom built
bike. But I am by no means a master frame builder. You're defining
this much too narrowly.

In article ,
Still Just Me wrote:

On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 19:43:05 -0700, jim beam
wrote:

Aluminum can be a fine material with which to make a bike frame.
And it can be a poor choice, as I am sure you already know.

you're such a ****ing retard timmy, i can't even be bothered to put
your dumb ass straight. and not only are you ****ing retarded,
you're BORING and ****ing retarded.

Oh, oh, JB is into his namesake again.

Yup, as usual. And as usual his grasp of reality is shaky. Oh well,
it's entertaining to get him all whipped up in a lather until he soils
himself. I'm a bad man.

Tim McNamara wrote:
In article ,
Still Just Me wrote:

On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 19:43:05 -0700, jim beam
wrote:

Aluminum can be a fine material with which to make a bike frame.
And it can be a poor choice, as I am sure you already know.
you're such a ****ing retard timmy, i can't even be bothered to put
your dumb ass straight. and not only are you ****ing retarded,
you're BORING and ****ing retarded.
Oh, oh, JB is into his namesake again.

Yup, as usual. And as usual his grasp of reality is shaky. Oh well,
it's entertaining to get him all whipped up in a lather until he soils
himself. I'm a bad man.

no, you're a ****ing retarded man, timmy. badly ****ing retarded.

Tim McNamara wrote:
In article ,
Michael Press wrote:

In article ,
Tim McNamara wrote:

In article ,
Michael Press wrote:

In article

,
landotter wrote:

On Apr 24, 7:45�pm, Andre Jute wrote:
WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE [drivelsnip]
No, a Waterford is a work of art made by craftsmen. They are
very pretty and that's why, if you have a couple grand burning
a hole in your pocket, and love bicycles, you should buy one.
If indeed it's the bike your heart desires. They do seem a few
hundred bux overpriced to me--but whadda I know? That might be
due to fancy dropouts or laquer or something I'm missing.
People spend more on Harley farts.
It is not a custom frame unless you consult in person with a
master frame maker. He talks with you, watches you ride, then
builds the exact frame that you need. Mailing in dimensions is
just that.
How about if you consult with a non-master framebuilder? ;-)
What do you think? The idea is to hire the best advice you can if you
want a custom frame. Otherwise it is semi-custom.

I built a frame for myself to my specification. It's a custom built
bike. But I am by no means a master frame builder. You're defining
this much too narrowly.

so how did you calculate the tube diameters to use to shift the shimmy
resonance out of range for your weight/size them timmy? oh, you didn't?
well, there's a ****ing retarded surprise.

On Apr 26, 3:42*am, jim beam wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:

I'm serious. You and I are generally on the same side on materials
properties and uses. But I have vast experience of discriminating
matters of taste from strict engineering, and you should give me a
break there if you expect a break on materials science.

oh ****, there you go again. *"discriminating taste" is just an excuse
for willful ignorance.

Not at all, dear Jumbo. It is a reason not to let tenth-rate techies
like you tell me how to spend my money.

Andre Jute
Not everything in materials are dreamt of in Timoshenko

On Apr 25, 3:05*pm, Andre Jute wrote:
On Apr 25, 5:35*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:





On Apr 24, 9:35*pm, Andre Jute wrote:

On Apr 25, 4:42*am, RonSonic wrote:

On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:23:52 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute wrote:
On Apr 25, 4:05*am, jim beam wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
I have two aliminium bikes which are both eminently satisfactory
except for one detail: the welding on one is ugly

that's an ignorant jobstian bull**** excuse. *if the mechanicals are
good and the microstructure good, that's all that matters to your
ability to ride the damned thing.

How it it "ignorant" to demand aesthetic satisfaction from the
artifacts one owns. Stop blustering, Jimbo; it makes you sound like a
troll. A Ford gets you there. A Bentley gets you there with a smile on
your face.

Andre Jute
*"The brain of an engineer is a delicate instrument instrument which
must be protected against the unevenness of the ground." -- Wifredo-
Pelayo Ricart Medina

yeah, and the brains of non-engineers need boiling in brine and vinegar
sometimes.

Especially the zero-aesthetic barbarians.

Andre Jute
The Real Thing -- slogan I coined for wool, later used for a fizzy
drink

Original text, in case you want to know, dealt with value for money
and pedigree in steel bikes:

Criticising Waterford as lacking "pedigree" is probably not a real strong
argument.

Nobody accused Waterford of having zero pedigree, Ronni. The problem
is that Waterford just doesn't have the pedigree of say Bob Jackson or
Mercian, but Waterford charges three to five times as much as they do
-- not three to five per cent more, three to five whole multiples.
Holy Moses, i've heard of the last of the big spenders, but Waterford
is the last of the big chargers.

And it isn't just a difference in depth of pedigree that makes
Waterford look so greedy. At Bob Jackson (and possibly at Mercian too,
I can't remember now and there are plenty on RBT to *look it up) you
get a bike without local frame-stresses because it is brazed in an
open hearth for even heating, so there are technical superiorities
too. And the historic connections, for instance Bob Jackson is the
only place where you can get authorized Hetchins wavy chainstays.

I have no connection with Bob Jackson or Mercian, who are both long-
established traditional British bike makers; I normally order my bikes
in the Benelux or Germany.

There are some good bargains to be had with the Mercians even with
shipping, and depending on the exchange rate. *As for hearth brazing
and the heat affected zone, modern air hardened steels do not behave
in the same way as 531 or SL/SP. *Mercian uses air hardened steels,
starting with Reynolds 631 in its lower priced frames, which
purportedly gains strength in the heat affected zone. *The Waterfords
are a whole other animal judging by the website, and some of the
additional cost can be justified by the proprietary tube sets, etc.
Some is obviously hype.

I'm not unwilling to pay something for pedigree, given that it is not
overpriced like Waterford's, and given that it is real, not just some
wiseguys in a building once used by a famous name, or who bought the
right to use the name.

But the surprising thing about the best pedigreed products is that
their makers usually charge very little or nothing for the name
itself, merely insisting on not cutting quality of components and
workmanship in order to appear competitive on price. So you get what
you pay for.

Waterford clearly charges a premium for the name. I think it far too
high. YMMV.

BTW, I think the mystery attached to custom steel frames in the UK is
much less than in the USA. The UK has a history of street corner bike
shops with resident builders and a more utilitarian approach to frame
building. It is sort of like the Amish not getting all that excited
about Amish chairs, whereas the same chair mightbe revered as art in
some Manhattan gallery. Over here, custom steel is art, and the
builders are revered as rock stars, barely a rung below really good
baristas. So there Amercans do pay a premium for mystique.

You should see what we pay in the US for the old, fruitwood, crap
furniture from the 30s that the British have cleared out of their
basements and that are sold here as "antiques." On the other hand,
the Japanese were paying $70 for used Jeans from the US, so I guess it
goes both ways. -- Jay Beattie.

Jay Beattie wrote:
On Apr 25, 3:05�pm, Andre Jute wrote:
On Apr 25, 5:35�pm, Jay Beattie wrote:





On Apr 24, 9:35�pm, Andre Jute wrote:
On Apr 25, 4:42�am, RonSonic wrote:
On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:23:52 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute wrote:
On Apr 25, 4:05�am, jim beam wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
I have two aliminium bikes which are both eminently satisfactory
except for one detail: the welding on one is ugly
that's an ignorant jobstian bull**** excuse. �if the mechanicals are
good and the microstructure good, that's all that matters to your
ability to ride the damned thing.
How it it "ignorant" to demand aesthetic satisfaction from the
artifacts one owns. Stop blustering, Jimbo; it makes you sound like a
troll. A Ford gets you there. A Bentley gets you there with a smile on
your face.
Andre Jute
�"The brain of an engineer is a delicate instrument instrument which
must be protected against the unevenness of the ground." -- Wifredo-
Pelayo Ricart Medina
yeah, and the brains of non-engineers need boiling in brine and vinegar
sometimes.
Especially the zero-aesthetic barbarians.
Andre Jute
The Real Thing -- slogan I coined for wool, later used for a fizzy
drink
Original text, in case you want to know, dealt with value for money
and pedigree in steel bikes:
Criticising Waterford as lacking "pedigree" is probably not a real strong
argument.
Nobody accused Waterford of having zero pedigree, Ronni. The problem
is that Waterford just doesn't have the pedigree of say Bob Jackson or
Mercian, but Waterford charges three to five times as much as they do
-- not three to five per cent more, three to five whole multiples.
Holy Moses, i've heard of the last of the big spenders, but Waterford
is the last of the big chargers.
And it isn't just a difference in depth of pedigree that makes
Waterford look so greedy. At Bob Jackson (and possibly at Mercian too,
I can't remember now and there are plenty on RBT to �look it up) you
get a bike without local frame-stresses because it is brazed in an
open hearth for even heating, so there are technical superiorities
too. And the historic connections, for instance Bob Jackson is the
only place where you can get authorized Hetchins wavy chainstays.
I have no connection with Bob Jackson or Mercian, who are both long-
established traditional British bike makers; I normally order my bikes
in the Benelux or Germany.
There are some good bargains to be had with the Mercians even with
shipping, and depending on the exchange rate. �As for hearth brazing
and the heat affected zone, modern air hardened steels do not behave
in the same way as 531 or SL/SP. �Mercian uses air hardened steels,
starting with Reynolds 631 in its lower priced frames, which
purportedly gains strength in the heat affected zone. �The Waterfords
are a whole other animal judging by the website, and some of the
additional cost can be justified by the proprietary tube sets, etc.
Some is obviously hype.
I'm not unwilling to pay something for pedigree, given that it is not
overpriced like Waterford's, and given that it is real, not just some
wiseguys in a building once used by a famous name, or who bought the
right to use the name.

But the surprising thing about the best pedigreed products is that
their makers usually charge very little or nothing for the name
itself, merely insisting on not cutting quality of components and
workmanship in order to appear competitive on price. So you get what
you pay for.

Waterford clearly charges a premium for the name. I think it far too
high. YMMV.

BTW, I think the mystery attached to custom steel frames in the UK is
much less than in the USA. The UK has a history of street corner bike
shops with resident builders and a more utilitarian approach to frame
building. It is sort of like the Amish not getting all that excited
about Amish chairs, whereas the same chair mightbe revered as art in
some Manhattan gallery. Over here, custom steel is art, and the
builders are revered as rock stars, barely a rung below really good
baristas. So there Amercans do pay a premium for mystique.

no ****.



You should see what we pay in the US for the old, fruitwood, crap
furniture from the 30s that the British have cleared out of their
basements and that are sold here as "antiques." On the other hand,
the Japanese were paying $70 for used Jeans from the US, so I guess it
goes both ways.

it doesn't take the japanese to do that - we can do it here too. old
jeans for sale in haight/ashbury, san francisco, for $400 - vintage
levi's allegedly from the 1950's. rich white trendy kids store.