Chain cleaners

On Sun, 01 Dec 2013 17:28:11 +0100, Martin Borsje
wrote:

sms has brought this to us :
On 12/1/2013 6:37 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

Given the fact that a chain that is cleaned by running it through a
rough rag before lubrication after every wet ride give about the same
lifetime this is a questionable, messy and unnesessary troublesome regime.

If your metric is solely the useful life of the chain then you're correct.
Few riders base their chain cleaning and lubrication regime on that metric.

What other metric there could be?

My metric is the grease line on my right pant leg. If the chain is
dirty enough to leave a mark, then it's time for a cleaning. I just
wipe the outside chain plates, where they hit my pant leg, and leave
the rest of the chain alone. If I have a reason to later remove the
chain, it gets wiped somewhat more thoroughly. I was reversing the
direction of the chain to even out wear on the other side of the pin,
but that has not proven to be beneficial. When the chain shows
evidence of "chain stretch", it gets replaced (along with any other
worn gears). I don't ride enough to justify re-lubrication.

I do have an on-the-bicycle chain cleaner contraption. I've used it a
few times with dubious results. The cleaner (solvent or soap) washes
off the chain lube, which then requires re-lubrication. To me, that
means getting the oil into the pin and sleeve area, which requires a
baptism in more solvent and then hot oil or hot wax. Dripping oil on
the surface of the chain does nothing useful.

Incidentally, I found a marginal way to check if the chain is properly
lubricated and that there is no filth left between the pins and
sleeves. Remove the quick-link and dangle the chain vertically. Swing
the upper end back and forth and look at the motion of the chain. If
it forms perfect sinusoidal waves, it's clean. If the chain jerks
back and forth, there's a problem. If you make a video of the motion,
and play it back slowly, you can see where its binding or where a side
plate has been bent. A newly waxed chain may have some temporary
binding from wax buildup, but that can be relieved by exercising the
chain around a small radius (broom handle) a few times. I just let it
spiral up the broom handle in one direction, then do it again in the
other direction. The only problem with this test is that it won't
detect non-lubricated links or a worn chain as these both swing quite
freely.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

A RAG WIPE doesn't qualify as chain cleaning. Above ragging, the cleaning techniques prolong chain life yet only in probabbbleness.

While you can strive, fabricate and carry thru on top end grit removal , the road will dictate. So say over 20 chains, top end cleaning may add miles to 5 chains with the remainder succumbing to road hazards

EG, over long fast hot smooth and relatively clean roads over a very sharp edged silica soil-beach sand- cleaning chains EVERY DAY BEFORE RIDING, the chain was lost with 2 opposing pairs links succumbing to road grit....salvaged with saved end links n pins.

here, a double rinse with first rinse in recycled thinner and a second rinse in clean thinner reveals only a minute grit quantity...of silica grains from the second rinse. A third rinse shows no grains.

One would imagine a geared down electric motor running a looped chain thru a thinner bath then sacre blue oneadem on chain gizmos followed by a HOT BATH and stir in Valvo Synthetic transmission oil would be primo.

Overall, the deal is top end cleaning yields riding satisfaction more than a guarantee for chain life exceeding the usual clams of 5000 miles.

IHS

On Monday, December 2, 2013 12:26:21 AM UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 01 Dec 2013 17:28:11 +0100, Martin Borsje

wrote:



sms has brought this to us :

On 12/1/2013 6:37 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:



Given the fact that a chain that is cleaned by running it through a

rough rag before lubrication after every wet ride give about the same

lifetime this is a questionable, messy and unnesessary troublesome regime.



If your metric is solely the useful life of the chain then you're correct.

Few riders base their chain cleaning and lubrication regime on that metric.



What other metric there could be?



My metric is the grease line on my right pant leg. If the chain is

dirty enough to leave a mark, then it's time for a cleaning. I just

wipe the outside chain plates, where they hit my pant leg, and leave

the rest of the chain alone. If I have a reason to later remove the

chain, it gets wiped somewhat more thoroughly. I was reversing the

direction of the chain to even out wear on the other side of the pin,

but that has not proven to be beneficial. When the chain shows

evidence of "chain stretch", it gets replaced (along with any other

worn gears). I don't ride enough to justify re-lubrication.



I do have an on-the-bicycle chain cleaner contraption. I've used it a

few times with dubious results. The cleaner (solvent or soap) washes

off the chain lube, which then requires re-lubrication. To me, that

means getting the oil into the pin and sleeve area, which requires a

baptism in more solvent and then hot oil or hot wax. Dripping oil on

the surface of the chain does nothing useful.



Incidentally, I found a marginal way to check if the chain is properly

lubricated and that there is no filth left between the pins and

sleeves. Remove the quick-link and dangle the chain vertically. Swing

the upper end back and forth and look at the motion of the chain. If

it forms perfect sinusoidal waves, it's clean. If the chain jerks

back and forth, there's a problem. If you make a video of the motion,

and play it back slowly, you can see where its binding or where a side

plate has been bent. A newly waxed chain may have some temporary

binding from wax buildup, but that can be relieved by exercising the

chain around a small radius (broom handle) a few times. I just let it

spiral up the broom handle in one direction, then do it again in the

other direction. The only problem with this test is that it won't

detect non-lubricated links or a worn chain as these both swing quite

freely.





--

Jeff Liebermann

150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com

Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com

Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

use wax ? ugh. try Pedro's 2.? then spray Pedro's driveline/CR/cogs/derays (not rim) with CRC silicone (Wal) for the 3rd.....ride.

On 12/1/2013 9:26 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

I do have an on-the-bicycle chain cleaner contraption. I've used it a
few times with dubious results. The cleaner (solvent or soap) washes
off the chain lube, which then requires re-lubrication. To me, that
means getting the oil into the pin and sleeve area, which requires a
baptism in more solvent and then hot oil or hot wax. Dripping oil on
the surface of the chain does nothing useful.

You're correct that dripping oil from a bottle onto the chain does
nothing (or at least little). Well actually a lot of companies and
stores make a lot of money packaging and selling it so while it may do
little for your chain, it does do something for someone. There were
probably 50 companies at Interbike marketing tiny bottles of their own
concoction.

Where you're wrong is thinking that you have to baptize the chain in
order to achieve proper re-lubrication after cleaning. The reason that
foaming chain lubes were invented was to address this issue. You can
find them at motorcycle shops (look for one for non-O ring chains) or
you can order them on-line. They are widely used for chains that simply
can't be removed when they need to be lubricated, and they work
extremely well. The foam is a carrier for the lubricant and it carries
it into the pin and sleeve area then the foam evaporates. The lubricant
is slightly sticky so it isn't flung out as the chain moves.

Too many people spend too much time on "recreational chain cleaning and
lubrication" for no real purpose.

One device that makes the use of those on-bicycle chain cleaners a bit
easier is the Chain Master
http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product_10053_10052_172868_-1.

Also see my web site http://nordicgroup.us/chain/ for more information
on chain cleaning and lubrication.

Above all, avoid hot waxing!

On 12/2/2013 6:08 AM, wrote:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

use wax ? ugh.

Wax is a terrible choice. Mike Jacubowsky has stated as much. Sheldon
Brown has stated as much. Wax has no "memory." It doesn't flow. The only
advantage it has is that doesn't get your clothes dirty. Don't even call
wax a chain lubricant. It should be illegal. Anyone that uses it should
be deported.

On 12/2/2013 6:08 AM, wrote:

snip

use wax ? ugh. try Pedro's 2.? then spray Pedro's driveline/CR/cogs/derays (not rim) with CRC silicone (Wal) for the 3rd.....ride.

From http://nordicgroup.us/chain/

What the Experts say About Chain Waxing:

"When wax was popular, we'd get customers coming in all the time
complaining about shifting problems on their bikes. Removed the wax and
lubed with conventional stuff and voila, shifting back to normal." Mike
Jacoubowsky, co-owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles.

"Wax is not mobile and cannot return to a location from which it has
been removed by rotation of one part on another." Jobst Brandt, author
of The Bicycle Wheel

"If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often.
In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very
quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas." Craig
Metalcraft, manufacturer of Super Link III.

"Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal
of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or
grease." Sheldon Brown

On 12/2/2013 10:59 AM, sms wrote:
On 12/1/2013 9:26 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

I do have an on-the-bicycle chain cleaner contraption. I've used it a
few times with dubious results. The cleaner (solvent or soap) washes
off the chain lube, which then requires re-lubrication. To me, that
means getting the oil into the pin and sleeve area, which requires a
baptism in more solvent and then hot oil or hot wax. Dripping oil on
the surface of the chain does nothing useful.

You're correct that dripping oil from a bottle onto the chain does
nothing (or at least little). Well actually a lot of companies and
stores make a lot of money packaging and selling it so while it may do
little for your chain, it does do something for someone. There were
probably 50 companies at Interbike marketing tiny bottles of their own
concoction.

You realize that what you are saying is the opposite of what most LBS
think? Mine recommended wiping the chain and putting a drop on each
link and then running it through the gears and wiping off the excess.
Why would this not work?

On 12/2/2013 9:07 AM, Duane wrote:

snip

You realize that what you are saying is the opposite of what most LBS
think? Mine recommended wiping the chain and putting a drop on each
link and then running it through the gears and wiping off the excess.
Why would this not work?

_Of course_ the LBS recommends that you buy bottles of whatever chain
lube they are selling. The margins on these products are ginormous. If
only they could get out of the low margin bicycle business and sell only
small bottles of oil they'd all be wealthy.

The problem with dripping oil on the chain is, as Jeff pointed out,
"Dripping oil on the surface of the chain does nothing useful." Well a
small amount of that oil might find it's way to the pin and sleeve, but
very little.

Proper chain lubrication requires that the lubricant actually reach the
pin and sleeve. The two methods of achieving this are a) remove the
chain and dip it in a light, non-detergent, oil or b) use a foaming,
spray-on, chain lubricant. Besides actually lubricating the chain, it's
far less costly.

While you should not use wax, if you do wax you need to dip the chain in
hot liquid wax, you can't drip wax onto the chain with a butane or
propane torch and have any hope of it penetrating into the pins and sleeves.

On Mon, 02 Dec 2013 07:59:26 -0800, sms
wrote:

You're correct that dripping oil from a bottle onto the chain does
nothing (or at least little). Well actually a lot of companies and
stores make a lot of money packaging and selling it so while it may do
little for your chain, it does do something for someone. There were
probably 50 companies at Interbike marketing tiny bottles of their own
concoction.

I had the bright idea of formulating a penetrating oil that needs to
be applied hot in order reduce the viscosity sufficiently to sneak in
between the chain pin and sleeve. The oil was dissolved in a
flammable solvent and is quite thin. I used paint thinner, but
something more exotic should probably be used for the final product.
To apply warm, simply set fire to the chain. I added a fluorescent
dye so I can see how well the oil penetrated. It worked amazingly
well. However, the client declined to market it because of the
potential liability issues.

Where you're wrong is thinking that you have to baptize the chain in
order to achieve proper re-lubrication after cleaning. The reason that
foaming chain lubes were invented was to address this issue. You can
find them at motorcycle shops (look for one for non-O ring chains) or
you can order them on-line. They are widely used for chains that simply
can't be removed when they need to be lubricated, and they work
extremely well. The foam is a carrier for the lubricant and it carries
it into the pin and sleeve area then the foam evaporates. The lubricant
is slightly sticky so it isn't flung out as the chain moves.

Well, the next time you apply the foam, mix in some oil soluble
fluorescent dye. You can find it at the local automotive shop as
"leak detector". A UV LED flashlight is needed to see the glow.
Inspect the chain for penetration. CAREFULLY remove a few pins to see
how well the oil penetrated. The oil will smear on extraction, but
you can get a clue by the quantity of dye, not the location, as to how
well it penetrated. I've found that unless I heat the oil, I don't
get much penetration.

Above all, avoid hot waxing!

On my legs (to remove hair) or my chain? I don't have a hyperpilosity
problem (except on the night of the full moon).


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 12/2/2013 12:21 PM, sms wrote:
On 12/2/2013 9:07 AM, Duane wrote:

snip

You realize that what you are saying is the opposite of what most LBS
think? Mine recommended wiping the chain and putting a drop on each
link and then running it through the gears and wiping off the excess.
Why would this not work?

_Of course_ the LBS recommends that you buy bottles of whatever chain
lube they are selling. The margins on these products are ginormous. If
only they could get out of the low margin bicycle business and sell only
small bottles of oil they'd all be wealthy.


And since this doesn't work they get to sell me more chains and
cassettes! Except that I don't buy oil from the shop and I don't think
that their purpose in life is to **** me over. And doing this seems to
extend the life of my chains. YMMV.

The problem with dripping oil on the chain is, as Jeff pointed out,
"Dripping oil on the surface of the chain does nothing useful." Well a
small amount of that oil might find it's way to the pin and sleeve, but
very little.


Saying that it does nothing useful isn't really an answer to the
question why this won't work.