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Gear set up problem



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 30th 12, 07:52 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Graham
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Posts: 206
Default Gear set up problem

A friend of mine has just built up a new bike with what I believe to be a bit of a mismash of components and cannot get his gears set up properly. The components are as follows:

Shifters - Shimano dura ace 10 speed STI, front mech - Shimano dura ace, rear mech - Shimano XTR M971, cassette - SRAM 10 speed 11-32 , chain - KMC 10 speed and chainset - FSA compact 50/34.

He assures me that he has checked on a number of forums and with suppliers and apparently this lot is compatible. Can anyone confirm or deny this.

I have tried to set up the gears and whilst the front shifts perfectly I can only get accepable shifting on either the big ring or the small ring but not both. If I get acceptable shifting on the small ring then the chain is reluctant to come off the largest sprocket as if the cable were too tight. Slackening the cable by turning the barrel adjuster 2-3 clicks regains acceptable shifting on the big ring. Now if I shift to the small ring the chain tries to skip off the smaller sprockets to the one below indicating the cable is too slack. Reversing the clicks on the barrel adjuster gets acceptable shifting back on the small chain ring but it is now off again on the big ring as before.

So far I have checked the chain length and in the big/big combination directly i.e. not passing through the rear mech it is the classical overlap plus one link so that looks OK. By eye the hanger looks vertical and in line but I cannot be perfectly sure. There is no slack in the cable after the last change to the smallest sprocket and if I disconnect the cable from the mech and operate the STI whilst holding the cable there does not seem to be any appreciable resistance of the inner cable in the outer.

So Assuming this lot is actually compatible has anyone any ideas???

Thanks.

Graham.
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  #2  
Old September 30th 12, 09:03 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
Default Gear set up problem

On 9/30/2012 1:52 PM, Graham wrote:
A friend of mine has just built up a new bike with what I believe to be a bit of a mismash of components and cannot get his gears set up properly. The components are as follows:

Shifters - Shimano dura ace 10 speed STI, front mech - Shimano dura ace, rear mech - Shimano XTR M971, cassette - SRAM 10 speed 11-32 , chain - KMC 10 speed and chainset - FSA compact 50/34.

He assures me that he has checked on a number of forums and with suppliers and apparently this lot is compatible. Can anyone confirm or deny this.

I have tried to set up the gears and whilst the front shifts perfectly I can only get accepable shifting on either the big ring or the small ring but not both. If I get acceptable shifting on the small ring then the chain is reluctant to come off the largest sprocket as if the cable were too tight. Slackening the cable by turning the barrel adjuster 2-3 clicks regains acceptable shifting on the big ring. Now if I shift to the small ring the chain tries to skip off the smaller sprockets to the one below indicating the cable is too slack. Reversing the clicks on the barrel adjuster gets acceptable shifting back on the small chain ring but it is now off again on the big ring as before.

So far I have checked the chain length and in the big/big combination directly i.e. not passing through the rear mech it is the classical overlap plus one link so that looks OK. By eye the hanger looks vertical and in line but I cannot be perfectly sure. There is no slack in the cable after the last change to the smallest sprocket and if I disconnect the cable from the mech and operate the STI whilst holding the cable there does not seem to be any appreciable resistance of the inner cable in the outer.

So Assuming this lot is actually compatible has anyone any ideas???

Thanks.

Graham.


Sounds like minor if frustrating setup issues.

Ensure rear changer is vertical, not bent or damaged.

Check your top pivot ("B") screw adjustment.
Ensure high and low limit screws are correct, especially low
gear with a firm thumb push on the changer body,
When you have all 3 set properly you should get good
shifting in and out of low gear.

Then connect the gear wire and set as usual for index response.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #3  
Old September 30th 12, 11:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 5,270
Default Gear set up problem

On Sunday, September 30, 2012 4:03:02 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/30/2012 1:52 PM, Graham wrote:

A friend of mine has just built up a new bike with what I believe to be a bit of a mismash of components and cannot get his gears set up properly. The components are as follows:




Shifters - Shimano dura ace 10 speed STI, front mech - Shimano dura ace, rear mech - Shimano XTR M971, cassette - SRAM 10 speed 11-32 , chain - KMC 10 speed and chainset - FSA compact 50/34.




He assures me that he has checked on a number of forums and with suppliers and apparently this lot is compatible. Can anyone confirm or deny this.




I have tried to set up the gears and whilst the front shifts perfectly I can only get accepable shifting on either the big ring or the small ring but not both. If I get acceptable shifting on the small ring then the chain is reluctant to come off the largest sprocket as if the cable were too tight. Slackening the cable by turning the barrel adjuster 2-3 clicks regains acceptable shifting on the big ring. Now if I shift to the small ring the chain tries to skip off the smaller sprockets to the one below indicating the cable is too slack. Reversing the clicks on the barrel adjuster gets acceptable shifting back on the small chain ring but it is now off again on the big ring as before.




So far I have checked the chain length and in the big/big combination directly i.e. not passing through the rear mech it is the classical overlap plus one link so that looks OK. By eye the hanger looks vertical and in line but I cannot be perfectly sure. There is no slack in the cable after the last change to the smallest sprocket and if I disconnect the cable from the mech and operate the STI whilst holding the cable there does not seem to be any appreciable resistance of the inner cable in the outer.




So Assuming this lot is actually compatible has anyone any ideas???




Thanks.




Graham.






Sounds like minor if frustrating setup issues.



Ensure rear changer is vertical, not bent or damaged.



Check your top pivot ("B") screw adjustment.

Ensure high and low limit screws are correct, especially low

gear with a firm thumb push on the changer body,

When you have all 3 set properly you should get good

shifting in and out of low gear.



Then connect the gear wire and set as usual for index response.



--

Andrew Muzi

www.yellowjersey.org/

Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Andrew, are the Shimano dura ace 10 speed STI brifters compatible with a Shimano XTR M971 rear mech?

Cheers
  #4  
Old October 1st 12, 12:16 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
Default Gear set up problem

On 9/30/2012 5:42 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, September 30, 2012 4:03:02 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/30/2012 1:52 PM, Graham wrote:

A friend of mine has just built up a new bike with what I believe to be a bit of a mismash of components and cannot get his gears set up properly. The components are as follows:




Shifters - Shimano dura ace 10 speed STI, front mech - Shimano dura ace, rear mech - Shimano XTR M971, cassette - SRAM 10 speed 11-32 , chain - KMC 10 speed and chainset - FSA compact 50/34.




He assures me that he has checked on a number of forums and with suppliers and apparently this lot is compatible. Can anyone confirm or deny this.




I have tried to set up the gears and whilst the front shifts perfectly I can only get accepable shifting on either the big ring or the small ring but not both. If I get acceptable shifting on the small ring then the chain is reluctant to come off the largest sprocket as if the cable were too tight. Slackening the cable by turning the barrel adjuster 2-3 clicks regains acceptable shifting on the big ring. Now if I shift to the small ring the chain tries to skip off the smaller sprockets to the one below indicating the cable is too slack. Reversing the clicks on the barrel adjuster gets acceptable shifting back on the small chain ring but it is now off again on the big ring as before.




So far I have checked the chain length and in the big/big combination directly i.e. not passing through the rear mech it is the classical overlap plus one link so that looks OK. By eye the hanger looks vertical and in line but I cannot be perfectly sure. There is no slack in the cable after the last change to the smallest sprocket and if I disconnect the cable from the mech and operate the STI whilst holding the cable there does not seem to be any appreciable resistance of the inner cable in the outer.




So Assuming this lot is actually compatible has anyone any ideas???




Thanks.




Graham.






Sounds like minor if frustrating setup issues.



Ensure rear changer is vertical, not bent or damaged.



Check your top pivot ("B") screw adjustment.

Ensure high and low limit screws are correct, especially low

gear with a firm thumb push on the changer body,

When you have all 3 set properly you should get good

shifting in and out of low gear.



Then connect the gear wire and set as usual for index response.



--

Andrew Muzi

www.yellowjersey.org/

Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Andrew, are the Shimano dura ace 10 speed STI brifters compatible with a Shimano XTR M971 rear mech?

Cheers


Yes. Santanas for example ship with XTR and STi Ten, 36t
cassette just as you describe.

Official statement:
http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/te...9830607913.pdf

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #5  
Old October 1st 12, 01:30 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
thirty-six
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,049
Default Gear set up problem

On 30 Sep, 19:52, "Graham" wrote:
A friend of mine has just built up a new bike with what I believe to be a bit of a mismash of components and cannot get his gears set up properly. The components are as follows:

Shifters - Shimano dura ace 10 speed STI, front mech - Shimano dura ace, rear mech - Shimano XTR M971, cassette - SRAM 10 speed 11-32 , chain - KMC 10 speed and chainset - FSA compact 50/34.

He assures me that he has checked on a number of forums and with suppliers and apparently this lot is compatible. Can anyone confirm or deny this.

I have tried to set up the gears and whilst the front shifts perfectly I can only get accepable shifting on either the big ring or the small ring but not both. If I get acceptable shifting on the small ring then the chain is reluctant to come off the largest sprocket as if the cable were too tight.. Slackening the cable by turning the barrel adjuster 2-3 clicks regains acceptable shifting on the big ring. Now if I shift to the small ring the chain tries to skip off the smaller sprockets to the one below indicating the cable is too slack. Reversing the clicks on the barrel adjuster gets acceptable shifting back on the small chain ring but it is now off again on the big ring as before.

So far I have checked the chain length and in the big/big combination directly i.e. not passing through the rear mech it is the classical overlap plus one link so that looks OK. By eye the hanger looks vertical and in line but I cannot be perfectly sure. There is no slack in the cable after the last change to the smallest sprocket and if I disconnect the cable from the mech and operate the STI whilst holding the cable there does not seem to be any appreciable resistance of the inner cable in the outer.

So Assuming this lot is actually compatible has anyone any ideas???

Thanks.

Graham.


type GS has a total capacity of 37 teeth, one can generally push the
large sprocket size but not the total capacity as this is set by the
cage length. If it's the SGS then you should be able to make it
work , but make a positive identification before further testing,
adjusting and bashing it about.
  #6  
Old October 1st 12, 03:54 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Graham
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 206
Default Gear set up problem


"AMuzi" wrote in message ...
Sounds like minor if frustrating setup issues.


Ensure rear changer is vertical, not bent or damaged.


Thanks Andrew for the reply and your subsequent reply to another poster confirming the XTR should work with the STIs and providing a link to the Shimano tech doc.

After thoroughly going through the setup once again with no luck I finally removed the hanger from the drop out and discovered some paint on part of the mating face between the drop out and the hanger. Shoddy manufacure I guess. This is a relatively cheap carbon frame my friend imported from China. Having cleaned the surface and made sure it was as flat as possible I replaced the hanger after which I got better but not perfect shifting performance. Looking from the back of the bike with it upside down the jockey wheels look to be vertical but slightly toe out relative to the sprockets. I am not sure if that would make a difference but given it is not my bike and a carbon frame I am not up for trying to line things up perfectly. I will leave that to one of our LBSs if my friend cannot live with the shifting performance I have achieved - shifts into all gears but with slow upshifting on the big ring from the very lowest gears (tight cable?) and slightly noisy running in the higher gears (chain Just rubbing on the smaller cog - slack cable?) on the small ring. All intermediate combinations fine.

From the Shimano tech doc you referenced I noted that it recommended that this mech should not be used on a bike with internally routed cables. Unfortunately my friend's bike has internally routed cables. Disconnecting the cable from the mech and working the STI seems to indicate the cable is moving very freely but I accept this is effectively a no load test. When under tension from the mech spring things could be different. Could this be a cause of some of the residual gear set up problem?

Thanks again,

Graham.
  #7  
Old October 1st 12, 04:18 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
thirty-six
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Posts: 10,049
Default Gear set up problem

On 1 Oct, 15:54, "Graham" wrote:
"AMuzi" wrote in ...
Sounds like minor if frustrating setup issues.
Ensure rear changer is vertical, not bent or damaged.


Thanks Andrew for the reply and your subsequent reply to another poster confirming the XTR should work with the STIs and providing a link to the Shimano tech doc.

After thoroughly going through the setup once again with no luck I finally removed the hanger from the drop out and discovered some paint on part of the mating face between the drop out and the hanger. Shoddy manufacure I guess. This is a relatively cheap carbon frame my friend imported from China.. Having cleaned the surface and made sure it was as flat as possible I replaced the hanger after which I got better but not perfect shifting performance. Looking from the back of the bike with it upside down the jockey wheels look to be vertical but slightly toe out relative to the sprockets. I am not sure if that would make a difference but given it is not my bike and a carbon frame I am not up for trying to line things up perfectly. I will leave that to one of our LBSs if my friend cannot live with the shifting performance I have achieved - shifts into all gears but with slow upshifting on the big ring from the very lowest gears (tight cable?) and slightly noisy running in the higher gears (chain Just rubbing on the smaller cog - slack cable?) on the small ring. All intermediate combinations fine.

From the Shimano tech doc you referenced I noted that it recommended that this mech should not be used on a bike with internally routed cables. Unfortunately my friend's bike has internally routed cables. Disconnecting the cable from the mech and working the STI seems to indicate the cable is moving very freely but I accept this is effectively a no load test. When under tension from the mech spring things could be different. Could this be a cause of some of the residual gear set up problem?

Thanks again,

Graham.


Ah well, there's none so blind as those who don't want to see.

perhaps someone else might like to help to point out there is a GS
(long arm) and an SGS (longer than long) pulley-cage and only the sgs
cage is stated as suitable by the manufacturer for the gear range
Graham has quoted..
  #8  
Old October 1st 12, 06:58 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Graham
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 206
Default Gear set up problem


"thirty-six" wrote in message ...
On 1 Oct, 15:54, "Graham" wrote:
"AMuzi" wrote in ...


Ah well, there's none so blind as those who don't want to see.

perhaps someone else might like to help to point out there is a GS
(long arm) and an SGS (longer than long) pulley-cage and only the sgs
cage is stated as suitable by the manufacturer for the gear range
Graham has quoted..

What I quoted was:

Shifters - Shimano dura ace 10 speed STI, front mech - Shimano dura ace, rear mech - Shimano XTR M971, cassette - SRAM 10 speed 11-32 , chain - KMC 10 speed and chainset - FSA compact 50/34.

What you advised was:

type GS has a total capacity of 37 teeth, one can generally push the
large sprocket size but not the total capacity as this is set by the
cage length. If it's the SGS then you should be able to make it
work , but make a positive identification before further testing,
adjusting and bashing it about.

So by my reckoning (50-34)+(32-11)= 37 total capacity. Just at the limit of the GS. So armed with your advice I did not think it necessary to worry about which model it was. Having now studied carefully the tech doc Andrew posted the link to it actually says 34 for the GS limit so I guess your 37 was a typo which I guess you did not "see".

My experience with road mechs indicates Shimano are very conservative over their capacities. I have the same chain ring and sprocket set up working smoothly with an Ultegra short cage with the B screw wound fully in. The cage on my friends XTR is way longer than the Ultegra and it was no where near the limits of travel on either big/big or small/small combinations.

Anyway just in case others advise that the capacity of Shimano mountain bike mechs is more critical than their road mechs and would have the effect on shifting performance I have described I have emailed my friend asking him to confirm which model he has. He has already taken his bike home and was happy with its shifting performance although after riding it for a while he might be back!

Cheers,

Graham.
  #9  
Old October 1st 12, 09:21 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
thirty-six
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,049
Default Gear set up problem

On 1 Oct, 18:59, "Graham" wrote:
"thirty-six" wrote in ...

On 1 Oct, 15:54, "Graham" wrote:

"AMuzi" wrote in ...


Ah well, there's none so blind as those who don't want to see.

perhaps someone else might like to help to point out there is a GS
(long arm) and an SGS (longer than long) *pulley-cage and only the sgs
cage is stated as suitable by the manufacturer for the gear range
Graham has quoted..

What I quoted was:

*Shifters - Shimano dura ace 10 speed STI, front mech - Shimano dura ace, rear mech - Shimano XTR M971, cassette - SRAM 10 speed 11-32 , chain - KMC 10 speed and chainset - FSA compact 50/34.

What you advised was:

type GS has a total capacity of 37 teeth, one can generally push the
large sprocket size but not the total capacity as this is set by the
cage length. *If it's the SGS then you should be able to make it
work , but make a positive identification before further testing,
adjusting and bashing it about.

So by my reckoning (50-34)+(32-11)= 37 total capacity. Just at the limit of the GS. So armed with your advice I did not think it necessary to worry about which model it was. Having now studied carefully the tech doc Andrew posted the link to it actually says 34 for the GS limit so I guess your 37 was a typo which I guess you did not "see".


I made that mistake, an unfortunate rework on my intended post led to
some inappropriate editing with transposed value.


My experience with road mechs indicates Shimano are very conservative over their capacities. I have the same chain ring and sprocket set up working smoothly with an Ultegra short cage with the B screw wound fully in. The cage on my friends XTR is way longer than the Ultegra and it was no where near the limits of travel on either big/big or small/small combinations.

Anyway just in case others advise that the capacity of Shimano mountain bike mechs is more critical than their road mechs and would have the effect on shifting performance I have described I have emailed my friend asking him to confirm which model he has. He has already taken his bike home and was happy with its shifting performance although after riding it for a while he might be back!


One can push the largest sprocket size but AFAIK one cannot push the
total-capacity and any derailleur will offer improved performance if
this capacity is shied away from.
  #10  
Old October 1st 12, 09:41 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Graham
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 206
Default Gear set up problem


"thirty-six" wrote in message ...
On 1 Oct, 18:59, "Graham" wrote:
"thirty-six" wrote in ...

On 1 Oct, 15:54, "Graham" wrote:

"AMuzi" wrote in ...


Ah well, there's none so blind as those who don't want to see.

perhaps someone else might like to help to point out there is a GS
(long arm) and an SGS (longer than long) pulley-cage and only the sgs
cage is stated as suitable by the manufacturer for the gear range
Graham has quoted..

What I quoted was:

Shifters - Shimano dura ace 10 speed STI, front mech - Shimano dura ace, rear mech - Shimano XTR M971, cassette - SRAM 10 speed 11-32 , chain - KMC 10 speed and chainset - FSA compact 50/34.

What you advised was:

type GS has a total capacity of 37 teeth, one can generally push the
large sprocket size but not the total capacity as this is set by the
cage length. If it's the SGS then you should be able to make it
work , but make a positive identification before further testing,
adjusting and bashing it about.

So by my reckoning (50-34)+(32-11)= 37 total capacity. Just at the limit of the GS. So armed with your advice I did not think it necessary to worry about which model it was. Having now studied carefully the tech doc Andrew posted the link to it actually says 34 for the GS limit so I guess your 37 was a typo which I guess you did not "see".


I made that mistake, an unfortunate rework on my intended post led to
some inappropriate editing with transposed value.


My experience with road mechs indicates Shimano are very conservative over their capacities. I have the same chain ring and sprocket set up working smoothly with an Ultegra short cage with the B screw wound fully in. The cage on my friends XTR is way longer than the Ultegra and it was no where near the limits of travel on either big/big or small/small combinations.

Anyway just in case others advise that the capacity of Shimano mountain bike mechs is more critical than their road mechs and would have the effect on shifting performance I have described I have emailed my friend asking him to confirm which model he has. He has already taken his bike home and was happy with its shifting performance although after riding it for a while he might be back!


One can push the largest sprocket size but AFAIK one cannot push the

total-capacity and any derailleur will offer improved performance if
this capacity is shied away from.


As I have stated above the capacity point is not true from my own experience with Shimano road mechs. That aside my friend has just confirmed that his XTR is indeed the SGS long version which helps to explain why it had no difficulty in handling the big/big and small/small combinations. That being the case I think we can now rule out the cage length as a contributor to the shifting problem (except possibly too long and floppy!) as the spec for the SGS is:

Total capacity: 43 teeth, Largest sprocket: 34 teeth, Smallest sprocket: 11 teeth
Front chainwheel tooth difference: 22 teeth.

My friend's set up lies comfortably within that spec.

Graham.

 




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