What is the point of tubeless tires?

On 16/01/2019 1:00 p.m., Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 12:55:14 PM UTC-5, duane wrote:
On 16/01/2019 12:17 p.m., jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 8:40:36 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/16/2019 8:26 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 1:18:06 PM UTC+1, news18 wrote:


If their choices don't affect me, then I don't care about what marketing
people want to believe. If they ask, I'll give my experiences and opinion
and leave it at that. However, there are some products that over the
years I requard as highy undesireable and will not allow anyone to use on
any event that I organise.

One of those is slick tyres. I don't care whatever reason they give, they
are a definite no-no on any thing I organise. In my experience, riding on
slicks on a ride it is just a matter of when you're going to return home
in an ambulance. Seen it too many times on other rides.

On tarmac or off road? Define slicks. If on tarmac we disagree and I'm not allowed on your organized rides. I can live with that.

I agree with Lou on this. I've done many, many miles on Avocet slicks
and liked them really well. I never had a problem.

(Well, except the time my car was parked in the hot sun with my bike
inside. One Avocet tire blew out in the heat.)

Basically every high-end road tire on the market is a slick or semi-slick. https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...d-bike-reviews Knobby tires are notoriously squirmy and slippery on wet asphalt. The best wet grip tires have a big contact patch and a grippy compound and either a modest file tread (my choice in fall with the leaves) or slicks when the leaves get swept. And setting into a wet corner with oil or other slick contaminant, nothing will keep you up short of outriggers. The good news is that I've never returned home in an ambulance because of a crash on wet pavement. I typically rode home and then drove myself to the hospital later -- or urgent care. My wife did pick me up the last time when I cartwheeled over my son who crashed on a wet descent, but I had to ride 5-10 miles to the pick-up point with a broken hand (which now has a swanky Ti plate in it)

-- Jay Beattie.





What would be the logic of knobs on concrete?

A lot of people think that knobby tires, especially on MTBs, protect better from glass and other forms of punctures.

Cheers


It seems to me that with less contact on the tarmac you'd have less grip
though. I'm talking about a road bike though. Not an MTB.

On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 1:09:59 PM UTC-5, duane wrote:
On 16/01/2019 1:00 p.m., Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 12:55:14 PM UTC-5, duane wrote:
On 16/01/2019 12:17 p.m., jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 8:40:36 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/16/2019 8:26 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 1:18:06 PM UTC+1, news18 wrote:


If their choices don't affect me, then I don't care about what marketing
people want to believe. If they ask, I'll give my experiences and opinion
and leave it at that. However, there are some products that over the
years I requard as highy undesireable and will not allow anyone to use on
any event that I organise.

One of those is slick tyres. I don't care whatever reason they give, they
are a definite no-no on any thing I organise. In my experience, riding on
slicks on a ride it is just a matter of when you're going to return home
in an ambulance. Seen it too many times on other rides.

On tarmac or off road? Define slicks. If on tarmac we disagree and I'm not allowed on your organized rides. I can live with that.

I agree with Lou on this. I've done many, many miles on Avocet slicks
and liked them really well. I never had a problem.

(Well, except the time my car was parked in the hot sun with my bike
inside. One Avocet tire blew out in the heat.)

Basically every high-end road tire on the market is a slick or semi-slick. https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...d-bike-reviews Knobby tires are notoriously squirmy and slippery on wet asphalt. The best wet grip tires have a big contact patch and a grippy compound and either a modest file tread (my choice in fall with the leaves) or slicks when the leaves get swept. And setting into a wet corner with oil or other slick contaminant, nothing will keep you up short of outriggers. The good news is that I've never returned home in an ambulance because of a crash on wet pavement. I typically rode home and then drove myself to the hospital later -- or urgent care. My wife did pick me up the last time when I cartwheeled over my son who crashed on a wet descent, but I had to ride 5-10 miles to the pick-up point with a broken hand (which now has a swanky Ti plate in it)

-- Jay Beattie.





What would be the logic of knobs on concrete?

A lot of people think that knobby tires, especially on MTBs, protect better from glass and other forms of punctures.

Cheers


It seems to me that with less contact on the tarmac you'd have less grip
though. I'm talking about a road bike though. Not an MTB.

I too think there'd be less grip with knobby tires whether MTB or road if one was riding on pavement rather than dirt. Still, a lot of people who don't ride much or who get their bikes from a department store are more worried about getting a flat than they are about maximum tire traction or even rolling resistance.

Cheers

On 1/15/2019 11:09 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 7:30:14 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I have friends who bought Specialized bikes with Zertz inserts. They
were convinced by the ads but disappointed by the results. But
Specialized and the dealer were happy with the results (that is, sales).

Really? I got a Roubaix and never saw ads about Zerts.

Really! In particular, one friend of mine bought her bike specifically
because of the Zertz (well, and the supposed comfort from carbon fiber).
I don't know if she saw ads or believed the local shop guy (who, BTW, is
a very good guy and probably believed the hype himself). She had some
back problems causing some discomfort and hoped for a real improvement,
but she said she felt no difference at all.

Another friend has said she intends to buy just one more bike some day,
a bike with disc brakes. She rarely rides in the rain and never off
road. She's never had a problem with caliper brakes. She just thinks she
ought to have discs on one bike. What do you suppose convinced her?

Probably a salesman? What does she say?

I don't know. We talked about it only once, maybe two years ago. I
didn't ask for details.

I do have riding friends who are engineers. With them, I might ask more
details, and we might have discussed. But this person is a lawyer. I've
learned that with lawyers, it's better to just let certain things go.
Except here, of course. ;-)

Of course, I can't count the number of folks I know who would never ride
without their day-glo clothing (the data on that stuff's benefit is
pretty close to zero), their magic plastic hat (very questionable
benefit and almost no demonstrated need), their aerodynamic sunglasses
and more. I don't really discuss these things with them. If they bring
them up, I generally try to be diplomatic.

Well, we can agree to disagree. My magic plastic hat has given me good value. In fact, it prevent a nice scalp injury when I ran into a low hanging tree branch last week. Wow, this is so SMS! I was riding up one my steep goat roads at night when a car came down the road, and to avoid disaster, I squeezed to the right and whacked a branch I did not see because of no upward spew -- and actually, because I was blinded by the car headlights. I almost got knocked off my bike. It was so dopey. I think it was this tree on the right: https://tinyurl.com/ybbc56yj

Um... on that "road"? I think I'm reading a work of fiction. That
wouldn't qualify as an alley around here.

But yes, I'm skeptical about the idea that every time a helmet touches
something, an injury was prevented - even a "nice scalp injury." (Should
the people jogging on that path wear helmets for the same reason?)


OTOH, I have a friend who alternately shows up for rides on either a
1980s steel frame, or a modern touring bike with 35mm tires, hammered
aluminum fenders, a canvas handlebar bag the size and shape of a
breadbox, and an artisanal brass bell that probably cost $20. I think
that bike's pretty cool. Even though it's got disc brakes.

Disc brakes are great, particularly with fat tire bikes because you can use really fat tires and fenders with no brake interference. You can also use STI and get much better braking than with cantilevers. You certainly don't need them on your uber-light race bike (and I don't), but they're great for loaded touring, fat tires, wet weather, etc., etc. With that said, there are plenty of non-disc options in fat tire bikes out there.

I don't doubt disc brakes work great. And I know by experience that
caliper brakes do, too.

I don't mind any of these people buying what they want. I do mind the
industry that tells them what they _have_ to have.

It doesn't. You can buy whatever you want.

Sorry, the industry _does_ tell you what you have to have. Sometimes
it's explicit, in (say) a Buycycling magazine cover page or article
headline. I'm sure "The Gear you Have to Have!" has been in print there.
But just as often, the phrasing is different but the meaning is the
same, telling the gullible they have to buy this or that to keep up with
their friends, or to be safe on the roads, or stay in fashion or whatever.

Can you buy whatever you want anyway? Yes, it's still a (mostly) free
country and the industry's push doesn't necessarily work. But the
marketers never stop trying.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 9:55:14 AM UTC-8, duane wrote:
On 16/01/2019 12:17 p.m., jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 8:40:36 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/16/2019 8:26 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 1:18:06 PM UTC+1, news18 wrote:


If their choices don't affect me, then I don't care about what marketing
people want to believe. If they ask, I'll give my experiences and opinion
and leave it at that. However, there are some products that over the
years I requard as highy undesireable and will not allow anyone to use on
any event that I organise.

One of those is slick tyres. I don't care whatever reason they give, they
are a definite no-no on any thing I organise. In my experience, riding on
slicks on a ride it is just a matter of when you're going to return home
in an ambulance. Seen it too many times on other rides.

On tarmac or off road? Define slicks. If on tarmac we disagree and I'm not allowed on your organized rides. I can live with that.

I agree with Lou on this. I've done many, many miles on Avocet slicks
and liked them really well. I never had a problem.

(Well, except the time my car was parked in the hot sun with my bike
inside. One Avocet tire blew out in the heat.)

Basically every high-end road tire on the market is a slick or semi-slick. https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...d-bike-reviews Knobby tires are notoriously squirmy and slippery on wet asphalt. The best wet grip tires have a big contact patch and a grippy compound and either a modest file tread (my choice in fall with the leaves) or slicks when the leaves get swept. And setting into a wet corner with oil or other slick contaminant, nothing will keep you up short of outriggers. The good news is that I've never returned home in an ambulance because of a crash on wet pavement. I typically rode home and then drove myself to the hospital later -- or urgent care. My wife did pick me up the last time when I cartwheeled over my son who crashed on a wet descent, but I had to ride 5-10 miles to the pick-up point with a broken hand (which now has a swanky Ti plate in it)

-- Jay Beattie.





What would be the logic of knobs on concrete?

None. A file or light tread pattern like a Pasela is great for leaves or soft material on concrete. Some claim that file tread pattern can "grab" cracks and discontinuities in asphalt and concrete like a squeegee blade catching a crack, but I'm not so sure about that and rely on rubber compound rather than tread pattern on asphalt and concrete.

If Sir is talking about a 19mm Michelin, it was probably an old HD. Those were really grippy tires -- with a carbon black compound before the various silica compounds. I loved those tires. I remember switching to the 21mm version and thinking I was going "fat." Conti 23s became popular, and I thought those were too fat. 25mm wouldn't even fit under my rear brake arch. How things have changed.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 1/16/2019 8:26 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/15/2019 9:25 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

There used to be a magazine that tested everything under the sun. I
can't for the life of me remember the name of it but someone will.
Anyway, I used to read and believe everything that they printed until
one issue tested aÂ* .22 cal. target rifle and condemned it as it was
only a single shot. Not knowing, I guess that most .22 (rifle) target
shooters at that time only loaded one round at a time :-)


Consumer Reports, who famously rated several three speed bicycles
(Huffy, Murray Ohio, Rollfast etc) then ranked the Raleigh Sports
unacceptable because the brakes were overly responsive.

I remember back in the early 1970s 10 speed days, they did what was
probably their first test of 10 speed bicycles. They set up a ramp,
coasted bikes down the ramp and noted how far they rolled. They used
that distance as their main measure of bike quality. They didn't even
notice that all the bikes that rated high had high pressure tires, and
vice versa.

They try to do a good job in their own way, I suppose, and I think their
car reliability ratings (based on survey data) are good. But they are
marketers, too.

As one example, every time they test bike helmets they start off with an
anecdote about terrible brain injury either suffered or purportedly
averted. They still use the completely discredited "85% benefit" claim.
They give no actual numbers for the impacts they measure in their tests.
And of course, they'll never show a photo of a bicyclist with any other
hat, or no hat. They favor mandating helmets - but only for biking, not
for the truly big sources of serious brain injury.

So in brief, it's "Bicycling is SO dangerous! Buy these near-useless
chunks of styrofoam!" That's marketing.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/16/2019 11:17 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 8:40:36 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/16/2019 8:26 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 1:18:06 PM UTC+1, news18 wrote:


If their choices don't affect me, then I don't care about what marketing
people want to believe. If they ask, I'll give my experiences and opinion
and leave it at that. However, there are some products that over the
years I requard as highy undesireable and will not allow anyone to use on
any event that I organise.

One of those is slick tyres. I don't care whatever reason they give, they
are a definite no-no on any thing I organise. In my experience, riding on
slicks on a ride it is just a matter of when you're going to return home
in an ambulance. Seen it too many times on other rides.

On tarmac or off road? Define slicks. If on tarmac we disagree and I'm not allowed on your organized rides. I can live with that.

I agree with Lou on this. I've done many, many miles on Avocet slicks
and liked them really well. I never had a problem.

(Well, except the time my car was parked in the hot sun with my bike
inside. One Avocet tire blew out in the heat.)

Basically every high-end road tire on the market is a slick or semi-slick. https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...d-bike-reviews Knobby tires are notoriously squirmy and slippery on wet asphalt. The best wet grip tires have a big contact patch and a grippy compound and either a modest file tread (my choice in fall with the leaves) or slicks when the leaves get swept. And setting into a wet corner with oil or other slick contaminant, nothing will keep you up short of outriggers. The good news is that I've never returned home in an ambulance because of a crash on wet pavement. I typically rode home and then drove myself to the hospital later -- or urgent care. My wife did pick me up the last time when I cartwheeled over my son who crashed on a wet descent, but I had to ride 5-10 miles to the pick-up point with a broken hand (which now has a swanky Ti plate in it)

-- Jay Beattie.




When I was young and impressionable, I bought a set of
knobby cyclo cross tubulars from Gene Portuesi in October,
thinking I could ride all winter on them.

I rode home from work down the same hill into the same
reverse-bank corner on the same clean dry pavement as always
and promptly slid the back wheel out, smashing up against
the curb. For the next 47 winters I just used my regular
smooth-tread tubs.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 16/01/2019 1:47 p.m., jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 9:55:14 AM UTC-8, duane wrote:
On 16/01/2019 12:17 p.m., jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 8:40:36 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/16/2019 8:26 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 1:18:06 PM UTC+1, news18 wrote:


If their choices don't affect me, then I don't care about what marketing
people want to believe. If they ask, I'll give my experiences and opinion
and leave it at that. However, there are some products that over the
years I requard as highy undesireable and will not allow anyone to use on
any event that I organise.

One of those is slick tyres. I don't care whatever reason they give, they
are a definite no-no on any thing I organise. In my experience, riding on
slicks on a ride it is just a matter of when you're going to return home
in an ambulance. Seen it too many times on other rides.

On tarmac or off road? Define slicks. If on tarmac we disagree and I'm not allowed on your organized rides. I can live with that.

I agree with Lou on this. I've done many, many miles on Avocet slicks
and liked them really well. I never had a problem.

(Well, except the time my car was parked in the hot sun with my bike
inside. One Avocet tire blew out in the heat.)

Basically every high-end road tire on the market is a slick or semi-slick. https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...d-bike-reviews Knobby tires are notoriously squirmy and slippery on wet asphalt. The best wet grip tires have a big contact patch and a grippy compound and either a modest file tread (my choice in fall with the leaves) or slicks when the leaves get swept. And setting into a wet corner with oil or other slick contaminant, nothing will keep you up short of outriggers. The good news is that I've never returned home in an ambulance because of a crash on wet pavement. I typically rode home and then drove myself to the hospital later -- or urgent care. My wife did pick me up the last time when I cartwheeled over my son who crashed on a wet descent, but I had to ride 5-10 miles to the pick-up point with a broken hand (which now has a swanky Ti plate in it)

-- Jay Beattie.





What would be the logic of knobs on concrete?

None. A file or light tread pattern like a Pasela is great for leaves or soft material on concrete. Some claim that file tread pattern can "grab" cracks and discontinuities in asphalt and concrete like a squeegee blade catching a crack, but I'm not so sure about that and rely on rubber compound rather than tread pattern on asphalt and concrete.

If Sir is talking about a 19mm Michelin, it was probably an old HD. Those were really grippy tires -- with a carbon black compound before the various silica compounds. I loved those tires. I remember switching to the 21mm version and thinking I was going "fat." Conti 23s became popular, and I thought those were too fat. 25mm wouldn't even fit under my rear brake arch. How things have changed.

-- Jay Beattie.


Yes, I find the Conti 23s pretty good. I prefer the Specialized Pros for
grip but my LBS dropped their Spec line and Spec doesn't sell online.
And I don't like the LBS that took over Spec so now I use Contis.

I've ridden a mountain bike with knobby tires over concrete and I'd
settle for the flats rather than the loss of traction. Though both Spec
and Conti have flat protection that works well enough if you aren't in
goathead country.

On 1/16/2019 10:06 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 12:18:00 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 8:40:36 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/16/2019 8:26 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 1:18:06 PM UTC+1, news18 wrote:


If their choices don't affect me, then I don't care about what marketing
people want to believe. If they ask, I'll give my experiences and opinion
and leave it at that. However, there are some products that over the
years I requard as highy undesireable and will not allow anyone to use on
any event that I organise.

One of those is slick tyres. I don't care whatever reason they give, they
are a definite no-no on any thing I organise. In my experience, riding on
slicks on a ride it is just a matter of when you're going to return home
in an ambulance. Seen it too many times on other rides.

On tarmac or off road? Define slicks. If on tarmac we disagree and I'm not allowed on your organized rides. I can live with that.

I agree with Lou on this. I've done many, many miles on Avocet slicks
and liked them really well. I never had a problem.

(Well, except the time my car was parked in the hot sun with my bike
inside. One Avocet tire blew out in the heat.)

Basically every high-end road tire on the market is a slick or semi-slick. https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...d-bike-reviews Knobby tires are notoriously squirmy and slippery on wet asphalt. The best wet grip tires have a big contact patch and a grippy compound and either a modest file tread (my choice in fall with the leaves) or slicks when the leaves get swept. And setting into a wet corner with oil or other slick contaminant, nothing will keep you up short of outriggers. The good news is that I've never returned home in an ambulance because of a crash on wet pavement. I typically rode home and then drove myself to the hospital later -- or urgent care. My wife did pick me up the last time when I cartwheeled over my son who crashed on a wet descent, but I had to ride 5-10 miles to the pick-up point with a broken hand (which now has a swanky Ti plate in it)

-- Jay Beattie.

Many, many years ago I had the folding 19mm Michelin slicks on my road bike. I road that bike in the winter and one early evening I had to ride on a side-road that had packed snow on its entire surface. i stood on the pedals but could NOT break that tire loose so that the rear wheel spun. I was amazed at the grip they had.


Sir, I don't question your experience, it fits mine (not so much with
slicks though), but I feel compelled to point out to our more
impressionable readers that such performance will depend heavily on the
ambient temperature and/or temperature of the snow. Some snow is a bit
"grippy", esp. if very dry. Other snow, only spikes/studs will save
you. In other words, try this at your own risk.

Mark J.

On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 1:47:04 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
Snipped
If Sir is talking about a 19mm Michelin, it was probably an old HD. Those were really grippy tires -- with a carbon black compound before the various silica compounds. I loved those tires. I remember switching to the 21mm version and thinking I was going "fat." Conti 23s became popular, and I thought those were too fat. 25mm wouldn't even fit under my rear brake arch. How things have changed.

-- Jay Beattie.

YES! that's the tire Michelin HD. Two years ago i saw one in a bicycle shop out of town where I also bought some new never used Uniglide cassettes and some Dura Ace AX brake blocks. I was tempted to buy the Michelin HD tire but was concerned at just how useful it would be after all of those years folded up in the original box and therefore I passed on it.

Cheers

On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 2:37:51 PM UTC-5, Mark J. wrote:
On 1/16/2019 10:06 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Snipped

Many, many years ago I had the folding 19mm Michelin slicks on my road bike. I road that bike in the winter and one early evening I had to ride on a side-road that had packed snow on its entire surface. i stood on the pedals but could NOT break that tire loose so that the rear wheel spun. I was amazed at the grip they had.


Sir, I don't question your experience, it fits mine (not so much with
slicks though), but I feel compelled to point out to our more
impressionable readers that such performance will depend heavily on the
ambient temperature and/or temperature of the snow. Some snow is a bit
"grippy", esp. if very dry. Other snow, only spikes/studs will save
you. In other words, try this at your own risk.

Mark J.

I also remember that around the same time I discovered the great advantage of good quality MTB tires with a tread compound that did not freeze in winter. At night I used to take my MTB to an outdoor temporary ice rink the city set up and let some air out of the tires and then practice riding on the black ice rink surface. I never went down and I attribute that to riding style as well as the tire compound gripping the ice far better than a cheap tire did. That practice paid off whenever there was black ice on the roads. I'd simply reduce my tire pressure and slow down a bit and stay off the front brake. I never went down on my commute to work although others who worked there sometimes fell a few time on their ride in.

It's not just the tires but also the skill of the rider BUT without decent grippy tires the rider's skill can be negated.

I wish those Michelin HD tires were still available.

Cheers