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Idea for future of electronic gear shift. Beware, contains actual"tech" content.



 
 
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  #11  
Old July 5th 12, 10:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
Default Idea for future of electronic gear shift. Beware, contains actual"tech" content.

On 7/5/2012 1:16 AM, James wrote:
So they've replaced SS cables and gear levers with
electrical cables, switches and a battery. But what's next?

Those cables and the battery are still a pain.

Could each device generate enough of it's own charge to make
wireless gear shift with no need to carry heavy batteries?

Could they use piezoelectricity to power a transmitter in
the handlebars, and a miniature dynamo on the jockey wheel
of the rear deraileur to power the receiver and gear shift
mech?

What about the front deraileur I hear you ask? Could the
chain be used to modulate a static (permanent) magnetic
field and pickup AC current using a coil?

How about a helmet with mind sensors that allow us to think
"shift up" and it just happens?

It all sounds so complicated and fragile. I'm gonna hang on
to my SS gear cables as long as I can.


Options abound, which is good.

My fixed gear bike is dependable to an otherworldly level.
I change the chain annually. Haven't done anything much else
on it since 1992. Starts and runs at well below zero too.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


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  #12  
Old July 5th 12, 10:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
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Posts: 6,153
Default Idea for future of electronic gear shift. Beware, contains actual"tech" content.

On 05/07/12 16:39, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op donderdag 5 juli 2012 08:16:38 UTC+2 schreef James het volgende:
So they've replaced SS cables and gear levers with electrical cables,
switches and a battery. But what's next?

Those cables and the battery are still a pain.


How is that a pain? I'm surpised how fast they opimized the frames for electric shifting.


Electric cables are prone to being squashed, damaged and eventually
broken. They are not very robust compared with traditional gear/brake
cables. This is why bicycle computer cables are largely replaced by
wireless solutions (or at the least they sell MTB computers with heavy
duty cable).

And who wants a big battery pack stuck to the frame that you have to
think about recharging? Not me thanks. It's one of the reasons I use
dynamo powered lights.

Like Microsoft, when Shimano invents a "standard", others sprint to
catch up, not wanting to be left behind. It doesn't surprise me at all.

Could each device generate enough of it's own charge to make wireless
gear shift with no need to carry heavy batteries?

Could they use piezoelectricity to power a transmitter in the
handlebars, and a miniature dynamo on the jockey wheel of the rear
deraileur to power the receiver and gear shift mech?

What about the front deraileur I hear you ask? Could the chain be used
to modulate a static (permanent) magnetic field and pickup AC current
using a coil?

How about a helmet with mind sensors that allow us to think "shift up"
and it just happens?

It all sounds so complicated and fragile. I'm gonna hang on to my SS
gear cables as long as I can.



It is not complicated at all if you compare it with other stuff you
use without thinkng about it. You are getting old James. You have tio
watch out not to become a second 'Frank'. Nobody point a gun to your
head to buy or use anything.


Well, that's an interesting question. How long will traditional cable
driven components at, say, Ultegra/Chorus level be available?

I don't see a need for improvement on what's existing - except as Chalo
pointed out a while ago, that the front deraileur method of gear
changing is very primitive and not always 100% reliable. For that I'd
like an internally geared hub that doesn't weigh any more than a
chainring + front deraileur + a few chain links.

That would be a useful improvement - if it was made reliable and
serviceable.

--
JS.
  #13  
Old July 5th 12, 10:57 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
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Posts: 6,153
Default Idea for future of electronic gear shift. Beware, contains actual"tech" content.

On 06/07/12 03:48, datakoll wrote:
are connecting wires durable ? what gauge ? where's the ground ? Can the LBS use a multimeter ?


If it doesn't work, you'll need to replace it. ($$)

how waterproof moving parts ?


Campag EPS components have an IP67 rating.

http://eps.campagnolo.com/en/technol...ter-proof-ip67

"The Campagnolo EPS electronic drivetrain complies with IP67
international standards.

This means that the system is able to protect its electronic components
from dust and liquid infiltration.

In order to achieve the IP67 classification, all the electronic
components of the EPS system underwent a series of tests, which proved
their ability to function perfectly under one meter of water for at
least 30 minutes."

where do we get the psare rubber grommet/cover when it falls off ?


Campy will probably sell spares. Shimano will probably demand you spend
on a new derailleur.

WHAT'S THE POINT ?


That's my point.

self powered eleccycle ?


Electric scooters have been around for a while now.

--
JS.

  #14  
Old July 5th 12, 11:17 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Lou Holtman[_5_]
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Posts: 826
Default Idea for future of electronic gear shift. Beware, containsactual "tech" content.

Op donderdag 5 juli 2012 23:51:22 UTC+2 schreef James het volgende:
On 05/07/12 16:39, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op donderdag 5 juli 2012 08:16:38 UTC+2 schreef James het volgende:
So they've replaced SS cables and gear levers with electrical cables,
switches and a battery. But what's next?

Those cables and the battery are still a pain.


How is that a pain? I'm surpised how fast they opimized the frames for electric shifting.


Electric cables are prone to being squashed, damaged and eventually
broken. They are not very robust compared with traditional gear/brake
cables.


Electric cables are ideal for internal routing and the frames are optimized for that. Tests have proved that they are very robust.

This is why bicycle computer cables are largely replaced by
wireless solutions (or at the least they sell MTB computers with heavy
duty cable).


The manufacturers have never tried to make them robust and by the way people replaced them with wireless ones mainly because of the looks.

And who wants a big battery pack stuck to the frame that you have to
think about recharging?


Yep you need a battery. Recharging is not an issue once every couple of weeks or months IIRC.

Not me thanks. It's one of the reasons I use
dynamo powered lights.


Ai all the prone cables you need for your dynamo powered lights. How can you live by that?


Like Microsoft, when Shimano invents a "standard", others sprint to
catch up, not wanting to be left behind. It doesn't surprise me at all.

Could each device generate enough of it's own charge to make wireless
gear shift with no need to carry heavy batteries?

Could they use piezoelectricity to power a transmitter in the
handlebars, and a miniature dynamo on the jockey wheel of the rear
deraileur to power the receiver and gear shift mech?

What about the front deraileur I hear you ask? Could the chain be used
to modulate a static (permanent) magnetic field and pickup AC current
using a coil?

How about a helmet with mind sensors that allow us to think "shift up"
and it just happens?

It all sounds so complicated and fragile. I'm gonna hang on to my SS
gear cables as long as I can.



It is not complicated at all if you compare it with other stuff you
use without thinkng about it. You are getting old James. You have tio
watch out not to become a second 'Frank'. Nobody point a gun to your
head to buy or use anything.


Well, that's an interesting question. How long will traditional cable
driven components at, say, Ultegra/Chorus level be available?


As long as the electric stuff stay that expensive.


I don't see a need for improvement on what's existing - except as Chalo
pointed out a while ago, that the front deraileur method of gear
changing is very primitive and not always 100% reliable. For that I'd
like an internally geared hub that doesn't weigh any more than a
chainring + front deraileur + a few chain links.


Weight is not an issue, efficiency is. Front derailleur maybe primitive but it is simple, it works. The automatic trimming is the main feature of the electric powered FD IMO.


Lou
  #15  
Old July 6th 12, 02:11 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
raamman
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Posts: 634
Default Idea for future of electronic gear shift. Beware, contains actual"tech" content.

On Jul 5, 2:16*am, James wrote:
So they've replaced SS cables and gear levers with electrical cables,
switches and a battery. *But what's next?

Those cables and the battery are still a pain.

Could each device generate enough of it's own charge to make wireless
gear shift with no need to carry heavy batteries?

Could they use piezoelectricity to power a transmitter in the
handlebars, and a miniature dynamo on the jockey wheel of the rear
deraileur to power the receiver and gear shift mech?

What about the front deraileur I hear you ask? *Could the chain be used
to modulate a static (permanent) magnetic field and pickup AC current
using a coil?

How about a helmet with mind sensors that allow us to think "shift up"
and it just happens?

It all sounds so complicated and fragile. *I'm gonna hang on to my SS
gear cables as long as I can.

--
J "Not and early adopter" S.


absolutely right, and blue tooth or wireless function is the next
inevetable step. cableless brakes will follow; then a security key to
enable proper function by the rider.
  #16  
Old July 6th 12, 03:09 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
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Posts: 6,153
Default Idea for future of electronic gear shift. Beware, contains actual"tech" content.

On 06/07/12 08:17, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op donderdag 5 juli 2012 23:51:22 UTC+2 schreef James het volgende:
On 05/07/12 16:39, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op donderdag 5 juli 2012 08:16:38 UTC+2 schreef James het volgende:
So they've replaced SS cables and gear levers with electrical cables,
switches and a battery. But what's next?

Those cables and the battery are still a pain.

How is that a pain? I'm surpised how fast they opimized the frames for electric shifting.


Electric cables are prone to being squashed, damaged and eventually
broken. They are not very robust compared with traditional gear/brake
cables.


Electric cables are ideal for internal routing and the frames are

optimized for that. Tests have proved that they are very robust.


Which tests?

Obviously the wires inside the frame are well protected from being
squashed. They have to exit the frame somewhere though, and are then
prone to being yanked and crushed.

Hell, I once had a bike computer cable wrecked by a dog that chewed on
it. **** happens - and more likely to an electrical cable than a SS
gear/brake cable.

This is why bicycle computer cables are largely replaced by
wireless solutions (or at the least they sell MTB computers with heavy
duty cable).


The manufacturers have never tried to make them robust and by the
way people replaced them with wireless ones mainly because of the looks.


I disagree.

http://www.mtbr.com/cat/accessories/computer/cateye/enduro-8/prd_425993_114crx.aspx

"The reliable Enduro 8 computer offers a large gauge, heavy-duty wire -
making it ideal for off-road use and more demanding conditions."

And who wants a big battery pack stuck to the frame that you have to
think about recharging?


Yep you need a battery. Recharging is not an issue once every couple of weeks or months IIRC.


Something I'd like to avoid - hence my idea of a miniature electrical
generator/alternator and the use of supercaps or the like instead of a
bulk storage battery and wires.

Not me thanks. It's one of the reasons I use
dynamo powered lights.


Ai all the prone cables you need for your dynamo powered lights. How can you live by that?


I built mine with very heavy duty figure 8 cable. Many battery powered
lights have a separate battery pack and a cable also. I've also had a
battery die through vibration, which is another reason not to like them.


Like Microsoft, when Shimano invents a "standard", others sprint to
catch up, not wanting to be left behind. It doesn't surprise me at all.

Could each device generate enough of it's own charge to make wireless
gear shift with no need to carry heavy batteries?

Could they use piezoelectricity to power a transmitter in the
handlebars, and a miniature dynamo on the jockey wheel of the rear
deraileur to power the receiver and gear shift mech?

What about the front deraileur I hear you ask? Could the chain be used
to modulate a static (permanent) magnetic field and pickup AC current
using a coil?

How about a helmet with mind sensors that allow us to think "shift up"
and it just happens?

It all sounds so complicated and fragile. I'm gonna hang on to my SS
gear cables as long as I can.


It is not complicated at all if you compare it with other stuff you
use without thinkng about it. You are getting old James. You have tio
watch out not to become a second 'Frank'. Nobody point a gun to your
head to buy or use anything.


Well, that's an interesting question. How long will traditional cable
driven components at, say, Ultegra/Chorus level be available?


As long as the electric stuff stay that expensive.


I don't see a need for improvement on what's existing - except as Chalo
pointed out a while ago, that the front deraileur method of gear
changing is very primitive and not always 100% reliable. For that I'd
like an internally geared hub that doesn't weigh any more than a
chainring + front deraileur + a few chain links.


Weight is not an issue, efficiency is. Front derailleur maybe
primitive but it is simple, it works. The automatic trimming is the
main feature of the electric powered FD IMO.


Efficiency may be difficult to match.

--
JS.
  #17  
Old July 6th 12, 03:17 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,153
Default Idea for future of electronic gear shift. Beware, contains actual"tech" content.

On 05/07/12 16:39, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op donderdag 5 juli 2012 08:16:38 UTC+2 schreef James het volgende:
So they've replaced SS cables and gear levers with electrical cables,
switches and a battery. But what's next?


It all sounds so complicated and fragile. I'm gonna hang on to my SS
gear cables as long as I can.


It is not complicated at all if you compare it with other stuff you

use without thinkng about it. You are getting old James. You have tio
watch out not to become a second 'Frank'. Nobody point a gun to your
head to buy or use anything.


Let's not forget, I love innovations like clipless pedals, ergo levers,
cassettes and outboard BB bearings. It's not like I'm against
innovation where I see real benefit to me.

It cost a friend $300 per door to have the electronic door lock
actuators replaced. 3 out of 4 doors went faulty over a short time. My
mechanical door locks are still fine. I like DL (Distributed Locking)
as opposed to Central Locking, and manual window winders in my car.

--
JS.
  #18  
Old July 6th 12, 03:25 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
datakoll
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,793
Default Idea for future of electronic gear shift. Beware, containsactual "tech" content.

My fixed gear bike is dependable to an otherworldly level.
I change the chain annually. Haven't done anything much else
on it since 1992. Starts and runs at well below zero too.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1972



when IC horseless carraiges loomed on the horizon, as it was, did people say "****, WHO NEEDS THIS CRAP"? dissing the new IC carraige.

or did they immediately see advantages to not eating manure with meals ?

well, waht's ineffective with a bell crank clutch/brake linkage ? freezes at 15 slush ?

I was loooking, without adequate time, for a pyramid effect at the manufacturers.

If passing costs to consumers on complex bases...as the eletronics base moves way out from the bell crank foundry base...the more comllex a base the more value the manufacturer has in the marketplace.

you get the costs passed on, the manufacturers get larger and larger going to TYCO levels.

see all the functions involved in larger ?

no one needs this electronic but build the field and they will come right into thier wallet reality...LARGER.

METAPHYSICALLY, future reality may call back on past reality to afford its being.

Still, those small gauge wires are a mutha****er to deal with.

S

  #19  
Old July 6th 12, 04:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
datakoll
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Posts: 7,793
Default Idea for future of electronic gear shift. Beware, containsactual "tech" content.

wire is expensive.

when the electrics malfunction, where doya look ?

there's a market segment....one comes out of the ground hereabout's, ask him..

and the market segment begs exploitation for profit.

the benfit is the future self powering eleccycle.

gotta be so it is: Que Sera ! tainted meat !
  #20  
Old July 6th 12, 04:08 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
datakoll
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Posts: 7,793
Default Idea for future of electronic gear shift. Beware, containsactual "tech" content.

a jet....I'm in Boingland...the weather is superb in the Cascades. The kids are taking laps of Loops A thru C...
 




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