WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE

Carl Fogel wrote:

Chalo wrote:

Long stays are the best way yet to make room for a big pile of
goods while preserving as much as possible the qualities that make a
bike pleasant to ride.

Our great-grandfathers favored long wheelbases:

http://www.auctionflex.com/showlot.a...4596&weventite....
*or
*http://tinyurl.com/cvnsol

To appreciate how long the chainstays were and how far the front wheel
stuck out, look at the gaps between the tires and the front sprocket.

The gap between the rear tire and the sprocket is about 3 inches, and
there's about a six-inch gap between the end of a horizontal pedal and
the front tire. (The steel cranks and inch-pitch front sprockets back
then were about the same size overall as modern aluminum cranks and
half-inch front sprockets.)

For comparison, a modern short-coupled 2009 Paris-Roubaix bike:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?...h/features/par....

The modern rear tire overlaps the chainring, and the end of the modern
pedal is only an inch or two behind the front tire.

The long wheelbase gave a smoother ride on the hideous roads of the
1890s. Wooden-track racing bikes had shorter wheelbases, but still
looked like stretch limos compared to modern bikes:
*http://www.virginmedia.com/digital/g...kes.php?ssid=2

You have to squint, but you can see that there's still a gap between
the rear tire and the front sprocket on Major Taylor's oddball
4-chainstay 1899 Eagle track bike, and the pedal would still be a long
ways behind the front wheel for a modern bike.

Thanks for the excellent examples and succinct analysis.

In my observation, street conditions have deteriorated continually
during my street cycling and driving career which began in the
mid-'80s. At this rate I might be needing a high wheeler before I
collect a pension.

Chalo

In article
,
Jay Beattie wrote:

On Apr 25, 3:05*pm, Andre Jute wrote:
On Apr 25, 5:35*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:





On Apr 24, 9:35*pm, Andre Jute wrote:

On Apr 25, 4:42*am, RonSonic wrote:

On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:23:52 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute wrote:
On Apr 25, 4:05*am, jim beam wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
I have two aliminium bikes which are both eminently satisfactory
except for one detail: the welding on one is ugly

that's an ignorant jobstian bull**** excuse. *if the mechanicals are
good and the microstructure good, that's all that matters to your
ability to ride the damned thing.

How it it "ignorant" to demand aesthetic satisfaction from the
artifacts one owns. Stop blustering, Jimbo; it makes you sound like a
troll. A Ford gets you there. A Bentley gets you there with a smile on
your face.

Andre Jute
*"The brain of an engineer is a delicate instrument instrument which
must be protected against the unevenness of the ground." -- Wifredo-
Pelayo Ricart Medina

yeah, and the brains of non-engineers need boiling in brine and vinegar
sometimes.

Especially the zero-aesthetic barbarians.

Andre Jute
The Real Thing -- slogan I coined for wool, later used for a fizzy
drink

Original text, in case you want to know, dealt with value for money
and pedigree in steel bikes:

Criticising Waterford as lacking "pedigree" is probably not a real strong
argument.

Nobody accused Waterford of having zero pedigree, Ronni. The problem
is that Waterford just doesn't have the pedigree of say Bob Jackson or
Mercian, but Waterford charges three to five times as much as they do
-- not three to five per cent more, three to five whole multiples.
Holy Moses, i've heard of the last of the big spenders, but Waterford
is the last of the big chargers.

And it isn't just a difference in depth of pedigree that makes
Waterford look so greedy. At Bob Jackson (and possibly at Mercian too,
I can't remember now and there are plenty on RBT to *look it up) you
get a bike without local frame-stresses because it is brazed in an
open hearth for even heating, so there are technical superiorities
too. And the historic connections, for instance Bob Jackson is the
only place where you can get authorized Hetchins wavy chainstays.

I have no connection with Bob Jackson or Mercian, who are both long-
established traditional British bike makers; I normally order my bikes
in the Benelux or Germany.

There are some good bargains to be had with the Mercians even with
shipping, and depending on the exchange rate. *As for hearth brazing
and the heat affected zone, modern air hardened steels do not behave
in the same way as 531 or SL/SP. *Mercian uses air hardened steels,
starting with Reynolds 631 in its lower priced frames, which
purportedly gains strength in the heat affected zone. *The Waterfords
are a whole other animal judging by the website, and some of the
additional cost can be justified by the proprietary tube sets, etc.
Some is obviously hype.

I'm not unwilling to pay something for pedigree, given that it is not
overpriced like Waterford's, and given that it is real, not just some
wiseguys in a building once used by a famous name, or who bought the
right to use the name.

But the surprising thing about the best pedigreed products is that
their makers usually charge very little or nothing for the name
itself, merely insisting on not cutting quality of components and
workmanship in order to appear competitive on price. So you get what
you pay for.

Waterford clearly charges a premium for the name. I think it far too
high. YMMV.

BTW, I think the mystery attached to custom steel frames in the UK is
much less than in the USA. The UK has a history of street corner bike
shops with resident builders and a more utilitarian approach to frame
building. It is sort of like the Amish not getting all that excited
about Amish chairs, whereas the same chair mightbe revered as art in
some Manhattan gallery. Over here, custom steel is art, and the
builders are revered as rock stars, barely a rung below really good
baristas. So there Amercans do pay a premium for mystique.

You should see what we pay in the US for the old, fruitwood, crap
furniture from the 30s that the British have cleared out of their
basements and that are sold here as "antiques." On the other hand,
the Japanese were paying $70 for used Jeans from the US, so I guess it
goes both ways. -- Jay Beattie.

There are many excellent frame makers without that kind of mystery,
principally because they act to disperse any such mystery. They
build first rate frames for riding.

--
Michael Press

"jim beam" wrote:
[...]
any fool can use pain tube. and it seems they do.
^^^^

Now that was a hurtful comment.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll

Chalo Colina wrote:
[...]
Yep. Not only does a Carl Fogel-like survey of vintage cycles confirm
it, but even longer chainstays are making an appearance in the new
crop of longtail frames like the Surly Big Dummy, Yuba Mundo, and Kona
Ute. Long stays are the best way yet to make room for a big pile of
goods while preserving as much as possible the qualities that make a
bike pleasant to ride.

Even available in crank-forward (CF) designs:
http://www.ransbikes.com/Hammertruck09.htm!

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll

"RonSonic" wrote:
[...]
I hadn't thought of using fork blade tubes. Nice.
[...]

Here is a bike where the chainstays are a Cro-Moly MTB fork:
http://www.tfl.net/thebike.html [1]. There is enough vertical
compliance to make for a nice ride on rough pavement, but too much for
pulling a single-wheel trailer.

[1] Note obligatory white garage door.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll

Tom Sherman wrote:
"jim beam" wrote:
[...]
any fool can use pain tube. and it seems they do.
^^^^

Now that was a hurtful comment.


your "humor" is so plain.

I am sorry but, you are the joke here.
Have you considered the quality of the build? The precision?
Have you ever compared the rootless "root" you considered your mxte.... compared to the "root" that waterfod people has had on modern cycling?
DO you think you would behaving these bicycles if it wasn't for these people?
A non-frame builder should never criticize the works of a master, legend, and a trendsetter just because what you see is the price.

YOU ARE THE JOKE.
Try to make a frameset like that
see how much it costs you in time, labor, skills, precision, equipment, allignment, and size adjusting.

HOW ****ING SHALLOW!
On Friday, April 24, 2009 6:45:21 PM UTC-5, Andre Jute wrote:
WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE
An investigation consequent on being hounded by American roadies
by Andre Jute

Last year when I was shopping for a low stepover bike, Tom Sherman and
other Americans, touting for business for their own industry,
suggested I look at Waterford Cycles' Godiva model:
http://waterfordbikes.com/now/models.php?Model=655
I looked, shuddered but said thanks politely, and moved on,
eventually buying a German/Dutch crossframe mixte design with historic
roots.

Now a bunch of American roadies, led by Russell Seaton, have been
hounding me for being different. Seaton cites the Waterford Godiva as
the sort of bike I should have bought. All right, since these pushy
roadies insist, let's look into a Waterford bike in more detail. The
pricelist, here,
http://waterfordbikes.com/now/pricel...dels&Model=655
reads like some kind of a sick joke. The bare frame with the cheapest
lowest common denominator lugs costs $1800, a fork is $350 and up,
getting the fork painted to match is another $125 (!). box
"pinstriping" is $250, Rohloff dropouts $150, upgrade to decent
Rohloff dropouts from Paragon another $150 (a total of $300 for
Rohloff dropouts!). The total for the frame and fork is $2825.

No, I'm not pulling your leg. I looked it up and wrote it all down,
and then added it up carefully, several times. A Waterford frame with
a fork and the cheapest lugs plus good Rohloff dropouts, with the
single luxury of box pinstriping, will cost $2825 or 2130 Euro.

Better lugs will drive the price up by a minimum of $225, and a
machined brake bridge is $125. Remember these sums, for which you can
buy a whole bike some places. The total of $350 for a lug upgrade and
a carved brake bridge at Waterford is more than halfway to the price
of a frame with superb lugs and paint from a distinguished bicycle
maker with breeding, as I shall shortly demonstrate.

So, $3175 or 2400 Euro for a rather commonplace Waterford frame and
fork with pinstriping.

GET A FRAME WITH BREEDING INSTEAD --
FOR A FRACTION OF THE WATERFORD PRICE!

Hmm. In Germany, one can buy a Patria or Utopia custom-lugged steel
frame, with fork in the same colour, and stainless Rohloff dropouts,
and no thought of charging $350 extra (!) for the good lugs and the
delightfully carved brake bridge, and box coachlining by a famous
bikebuilder, for 700-850 Euro or a maximum of $1125, that's $2050
cheaper than the Waterford frame. And that is not for a common or
garden frame, that is for a very special frame.

Or, if you actually want the narrow-tyre road frame rather than the
German frames for tourers with Big Apple balloons, you can go to
Mercian for a Miss Mercian ($920)
http://www.merciancycles.co.uk/frame_miss_mercia.asp
or to Bob Jackson (prices from $653, including Rohloff dropouts)
http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/de...c9 b6796b2ac5
and get a beautifully painted, arrow-lugged, luglined, frame and fork
with a distinguished road pedigree.


WITH THE SAVINGS OF NOT BUYING WATERFORD,
GO UPMARKET

Who in his right mind would choose a Waterford Godiva frame instead at
over three times to five times the price of a Mercian or a Bob
Jackson? A cyclist could have a Mercian or a Bob Jackson couriered to
the street in front of Waterford Cycles, go ask them if they can match
the pedigree, and still be ahead over two thousand dollars,
essentially the price of outfitting a bike without ever asking the
price of Rohloff/SON/BUMM/Brooks/Nitto/Ortlieb/the best of everything.

A Waterford frame and fork alone costs as much as a completely
equipped dream bike, with pedigree, from Mercian or Bob Jackson,
fitted out with the best of everything. There is no contest.

You're off your gourd, Russell Seaton, and your pals aren't any more
sane. Waterford is a joke.


IS WATERFORD'S GODIVA A MIXTE?

There's another reason to give Waterford a big miss besides having no
breeding and being grotesquely overpriced. It is that their frames
appear to be bog-standard and dull.

The same Russell Eaton we've already met as an example of someone
crazed with roadie nationalism, also tells us that Waterford calling
the Godiva a "mixte" frame is his excuse for taunting me that my
Utopia Kranich unisex crossframe-mixte
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...20CYCLING.html
is a "girl's" bike. (I'm not even bothering to answer such crass
American stupidity.)

A mixte is a bicycle with two thinnish bars running from the head tube
to the rear dropouts (or frame-ends, to be technically correct). The
Godiva doesn't have these mixte bars and therefore isn't a mixte. The
Godiva is a simple traditional parallelogram ladies' frame, pretty
commonplace really.

What Waterford actually says about the Godiva is a typical piece of
advertising department weaselling: that it has "a classy mixte
profile". In other words, Waterford knows the Godiva is not a mixte
but is trying to claim for the Godiva the prestige or perhaps the
cross-gender sales of the (unisex) mixte.

Russell Seaton simply was too crazed with nationalist roadyism (or
should that be rowdyism?) to comprehend that Waterford were
intentionally misleading him. Poor Russell.

Copyright © 2009 Andre Jute. Free to reprint on not-for-profit
netsites. For any other use approach the author.

On Tuesday, April 16, 2013 4:05:17 AM UTC+1, wrote:

You're coming to this one a bit late, "ide..." I haven't seen you around here.

I am sorry but, you are the joke here.

Don't be sorry. You're singing my song. I always wanted to be a standup comedian, but it turned out I wasn't common enough for the clubs.

Have you considered the quality of the build? The precision?

Yes. Nothing special about it once you get above Taiwanese mass production. As I demonstrated, for a third down to a fifth of Waterford prices you get a high quality build with precision — elsewhere. At this level, quality and precision are taken for granted; they're minimum entry skills.

Have you ever compared the rootless "root" you considered your mxte.... compared to the "root" that waterfod people has had on modern cycling?

You can read about the prewar (that's not pre-Afghanistan, or pre-Gulf, that's pre-World War II) roots of my mixte at http://coolmainpress.com/AndreJute'sUtopiaKranich.pdf The history you want starts in the second section, and in the third section you will find photographs of Meister Kluwer who painted the coachlines on my bike. Meister Kluwer (Meister is a title meaning Master that a few exceptional craftsmen earn) worked on the line when the lineal ancestor of my bike was first built by Locomotief in 1936.

How do you like them roots?

Next time, do your homework before you waste everyone's time with easily refuted crap like "the rootless 'root' you considered your mxte".

As for "the 'root' that waterfod people has had on modern cycling", the makers of my Kranich, Utopia, have done more to modernize a distinctive part of the Schwinn/Waterford "legend", balloon-tyred beach cruisers, than Waterford ever did. You, and the RBT clowns are merely screeching in outrage that I should have the impertinence to criticise an AMERICAN brazier. You don't a foot to stand on. D'you see, "ide..." I'm just responding to points about Waterford you, and the RBT gang of wannabe street corner bullies, raised. I didn't choose Waterford for the comparison, Russell Eaton and Tom Sherman did. It isn't my problem if your chosen champion, Waterford, fails to measure up.

DO you think you would behaving these bicycles if it wasn't for these people?

Your sentence doesn't make sense.

A non-frame builder should never criticize the works of a master, legend, and a trendsetter just because what you see is the price.

Rubbish. That's a recipe for incompetents and the slack and the greedy to hide behind "respect". In any event, my article, and the discussion following, demonstrates the lack of mastery and trendsetting at Waterford, and the shallowness of their "legend" when compared with what is available in Europe.

If you think I care about the price of my bike, you haven't understood this argument. It isn't about the actual amount of money. It is about VALUE FOR MONEY. I named firms that give one much more value for one's money, between three and five times as much as Waterford gives one. Since these firms have much more substantial legends than Waterford, and in the case of the one I chose are spectacular trendsetters and innovators too, the point was conclusively proven. The only people who don't grasp that yet are romantics like you, overwhelmed by Waterford marketing and American nationalism, and their own inability to separate their emotions from the facts.

YOU ARE THE JOKE.

Yay, fame as comedian at last! Thanks, feller. May you live in interesting times.

Try to make a frameset like that

Er, have you actually read the thread? There are five pages of messages all aimed at the point that I DON"T WANT A DULL FRAMESET LIKE THE WATERFORD GODIVA. Why should I want to build a copy of such a dull bike?

see how much it costs you in time, labor, skills, precision, equipment, allignment, and size adjusting.

Oh, absolutely. My time until about thirty years ago, before it it became available only to those who have been paying annual retainers since their fathers' time, was a thousand sterling an hour, door to door, about two grand American back then. You put your finger on it. I can't afford to build bikes. Well, at least not for sale. Some of my other hobbies are as time-consuming and unproductive.

HOW ****ING SHALLOW!

Moi? Shallow? Really. I'm starting to like you, "ide..." Be sure to tell all those folk who call me tricky and treacherous that I'm a shallow never-mind just like them. The cheque is in the post.

Nice talking to you, feller. Or are you a felleress?

Andre Jute

On Friday, April 24, 2009 6:45:21 PM UTC-5, Andre Jute wrote:

WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE

An investigation consequent on being hounded by American roadies

by Andre Jute



Last year when I was shopping for a low stepover bike, Tom Sherman and

other Americans, touting for business for their own industry,

suggested I look at Waterford Cycles' Godiva model:

http://waterfordbikes.com/now/models.php?Model=655

I looked, shuddered but said thanks politely, and moved on,

eventually buying a German/Dutch crossframe mixte design with historic

roots.



Now a bunch of American roadies, led by Russell Seaton, have been

hounding me for being different. Seaton cites the Waterford Godiva as

the sort of bike I should have bought. All right, since these pushy

roadies insist, let's look into a Waterford bike in more detail. The

pricelist, here,

http://waterfordbikes.com/now/pricel...dels&Model=655

reads like some kind of a sick joke. The bare frame with the cheapest

lowest common denominator lugs costs $1800, a fork is $350 and up,

getting the fork painted to match is another $125 (!). box

"pinstriping" is $250, Rohloff dropouts $150, upgrade to decent

Rohloff dropouts from Paragon another $150 (a total of $300 for

Rohloff dropouts!). The total for the frame and fork is $2825.



No, I'm not pulling your leg. I looked it up and wrote it all down,

and then added it up carefully, several times. A Waterford frame with

a fork and the cheapest lugs plus good Rohloff dropouts, with the

single luxury of box pinstriping, will cost $2825 or 2130 Euro.



Better lugs will drive the price up by a minimum of $225, and a

machined brake bridge is $125. Remember these sums, for which you can

buy a whole bike some places. The total of $350 for a lug upgrade and

a carved brake bridge at Waterford is more than halfway to the price

of a frame with superb lugs and paint from a distinguished bicycle

maker with breeding, as I shall shortly demonstrate.



So, $3175 or 2400 Euro for a rather commonplace Waterford frame and

fork with pinstriping.



GET A FRAME WITH BREEDING INSTEAD --

FOR A FRACTION OF THE WATERFORD PRICE!



Hmm. In Germany, one can buy a Patria or Utopia custom-lugged steel

frame, with fork in the same colour, and stainless Rohloff dropouts,

and no thought of charging $350 extra (!) for the good lugs and the

delightfully carved brake bridge, and box coachlining by a famous

bikebuilder, for 700-850 Euro or a maximum of $1125, that's $2050

cheaper than the Waterford frame. And that is not for a common or

garden frame, that is for a very special frame.



Or, if you actually want the narrow-tyre road frame rather than the

German frames for tourers with Big Apple balloons, you can go to

Mercian for a Miss Mercian ($920)

http://www.merciancycles.co.uk/frame_miss_mercia.asp

or to Bob Jackson (prices from $653, including Rohloff dropouts)

http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/de...c9 b6796b2ac5

and get a beautifully painted, arrow-lugged, luglined, frame and fork

with a distinguished road pedigree.





WITH THE SAVINGS OF NOT BUYING WATERFORD,

GO UPMARKET



Who in his right mind would choose a Waterford Godiva frame instead at

over three times to five times the price of a Mercian or a Bob

Jackson? A cyclist could have a Mercian or a Bob Jackson couriered to

the street in front of Waterford Cycles, go ask them if they can match

the pedigree, and still be ahead over two thousand dollars,

essentially the price of outfitting a bike without ever asking the

price of Rohloff/SON/BUMM/Brooks/Nitto/Ortlieb/the best of everything.



A Waterford frame and fork alone costs as much as a completely

equipped dream bike, with pedigree, from Mercian or Bob Jackson,

fitted out with the best of everything. There is no contest.



You're off your gourd, Russell Seaton, and your pals aren't any more

sane. Waterford is a joke.





IS WATERFORD'S GODIVA A MIXTE?



There's another reason to give Waterford a big miss besides having no

breeding and being grotesquely overpriced. It is that their frames

appear to be bog-standard and dull.



The same Russell Eaton we've already met as an example of someone

crazed with roadie nationalism, also tells us that Waterford calling

the Godiva a "mixte" frame is his excuse for taunting me that my

Utopia Kranich unisex crossframe-mixte

http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...20CYCLING.html

is a "girl's" bike. (I'm not even bothering to answer such crass

American stupidity.)



A mixte is a bicycle with two thinnish bars running from the head tube

to the rear dropouts (or frame-ends, to be technically correct). The

Godiva doesn't have these mixte bars and therefore isn't a mixte. The

Godiva is a simple traditional parallelogram ladies' frame, pretty

commonplace really.



What Waterford actually says about the Godiva is a typical piece of

advertising department weaselling: that it has "a classy mixte

profile". In other words, Waterford knows the Godiva is not a mixte

but is trying to claim for the Godiva the prestige or perhaps the

cross-gender sales of the (unisex) mixte.



Russell Seaton simply was too crazed with nationalist roadyism (or

should that be rowdyism?) to comprehend that Waterford were

intentionally misleading him. Poor Russell.



Copyright © 2009 Andre Jute. Free to reprint on not-for-profit

netsites. For any other use approach the author.

On 4/16/2013 12:21 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Tuesday, April 16, 2013 4:05:17 AM UTC+1, wrote:

You're coming to this one a bit late, "ide..." I haven't seen you around here.

I am sorry but, you are the joke here.

Don't be sorry. You're singing my song. I always wanted to be a standup comedian, but it turned out I wasn't common enough for the clubs.

Have you considered the quality of the build? The precision?

Yes. Nothing special about it once you get above Taiwanese mass production. As I demonstrated, for a third down to a fifth of Waterford prices you get a high quality build with precision — elsewhere. At this level, quality and precision are taken for granted; they're minimum entry skills.

Have you ever compared the rootless "root" you considered your mxte.... compared to the "root" that waterfod people has had on modern cycling?

You can read about the prewar (that's not pre-Afghanistan, or pre-Gulf, that's pre-World War II) roots of my mixte at http://coolmainpress.com/AndreJute'sUtopiaKranich.pdf The history you want starts in the second section, and in the third section you will find photographs of Meister Kluwer who painted the coachlines on my bike. Meister Kluwer (Meister is a title meaning Master that a few exceptional craftsmen earn) worked on the line when the lineal ancestor of my bike was first built by Locomotief in 1936.

Very well-written.

Too bad those bikes aren't available in the U.S.. I'm looking for
something better for the spousal unit's commute bike.

The Mixte frame I'm looking at is made in San Francisco
http://store.somafab.com/roadframes.html. Not too bad at $500.

Still checking craigslist as well, but the Mixte framed bicycles are in
such high demand that they typically last only minutes before being
snapped up or they have some issue that turns them into a "project bike."

Rivendell has beautiful steel mixte frames but you're looking at $3000
for a complete bike.

Here's what I really want to do: go into a bicycle shop and buy a mixte
(or "mixte-like") commute bicycle that is complete or nearly so. It's
probably not possible to do such a thing in the U.S. anymore. The REI
Transfer is probably as close as you're going to get
http://www.rei.com/product/837488/no...fer-bike-2013). Steel
frame, chainguard, dynamo hub, and rack, and the price isn't too bad.
But the 7 speed hub is a limitation. That means that it's going to not
be useable in places like San Francisco.

On Apr 16, 1:35*am, sms wrote:
On 4/16/2013 12:21 AM, Andre Jute wrote:

On Tuesday, April 16, 2013 4:05:17 AM UTC+1, wrote:

You're coming to this one a bit late, "ide..." I haven't seen you around here.

I am sorry but, you are the joke here.

Don't be sorry. You're singing my song. I always wanted to be a standup comedian, but it turned out I wasn't common enough for the clubs.

Have you considered the quality of the build? The precision?

Yes. Nothing special about it once you get above Taiwanese mass production. As I demonstrated, for a third down to a fifth of Waterford prices you get a high quality build with precision — elsewhere. At this level, quality and precision are taken for granted; they're minimum entry skills.

Have you ever compared the rootless "root" you considered your mxte..... compared to the "root" that waterfod people has had on modern cycling?

You can read about the prewar (that's not pre-Afghanistan, or pre-Gulf, that's pre-World War II) roots of my mixte athttp://coolmainpress.com/AndreJute'sUtopiaKranich.pdf*The history you want starts in the second section, and in the third section you will find photographs of Meister Kluwer who painted the coachlines on my bike. Meister Kluwer (Meister is a title meaning Master that a few exceptional craftsmen earn) worked on the line when the lineal ancestor of my bike was first built by Locomotief in 1936.

Very well-written.

Too bad those bikes aren't available in the U.S.. I'm looking for
something better for the spousal unit's commute bike.

The Mixte frame I'm looking at is made in San Francisco
http://store.somafab.com/roadframes.html. Not too bad at $500.

Designed in San Francisco -- made in Taiwan. http://www.somafab.com/faqs
That's not a bad thing, though.

-- Jay Beattie.