Too much bike news

On 7/14/2013 6:47 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Sunday, July 14, 2013 5:07:59 PM UTC-4, Dan wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:

One of those 12-year-olds already has eight felony charges against him.
There's probably no hope at all for that kid.

nice attitude - I hope somebody near him has a better one

Someone may. But with eight felonies by age 12, and breaking & entering in this instance, what do you think his chances are?

I deplore the fate of such kids. But I think the odds are heavily against them turning to legitimate careers and staying out of jail. Sociologists don't seem to have figured out how to make that happen.


If one's worldview is to consign every problem to an
'expert', then yes I suppose one might lose hope.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sunday, July 14, 2013 8:04:28 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/14/2013 6:47 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:


I deplore the fate of such kids [8 felonies by age 12]. But I think the odds are heavily against them turning to legitimate careers and staying out of jail. Sociologists don't seem to have figured out how to make that happen.


If one's worldview is to consign every problem to an
'expert', then yes I suppose one might lose hope.

I'm not aware of "amateurs" doing much better in such situations. In this kid's case, that would probably include his family. Doesn't look like they're doing much good.

Eight felonies by age 12. What should be done? And what are the chances this kid will straighten up, instead of spending decades in prison?

- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski writes:

On Sunday, July 14, 2013 8:04:28 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/14/2013 6:47 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:


I deplore the fate of such kids [8 felonies by age 12]. But I think the odds are heavily against them turning to legitimate careers and staying out of jail. Sociologists don't seem to have figured out how to make that happen.


If one's worldview is to consign every problem to an
'expert', then yes I suppose one might lose hope.

I'm not aware of "amateurs" doing much better in such situations. In this kid's case, that would probably include his family. Doesn't look like they're doing much good.


It takes a village, but if you're not aware of ordinary
individuals making a positive difference in the lives of
others then I'm afraid maybe it's *you* who's beyond hope.

Eight felonies by age 12. What should be done? And what are the chances this kid will straighten up, instead of spending decades in prison?


Well, let's see - what have we got to go on?

"... it was told to me by a fellow cyclist during a ride
this past week"

Hmm... so we don't even know how many times removed the
heresay is, and can't explore whether the eight felony
charges were all for one incident wherein the kid chased
down some pedophile Ice Cream Man and assaulted the SOB.

That's probably not it, but we don't know what "it" is,
except that the kid was somehow suspected of association
with alleged rock throwing, window breaking, purse theft.

To abandon *hope* for a 12-year old child - under *any*
circumstances - is pretty damned cynical.

On Sunday, July 14, 2013 11:23:18 PM UTC-4, Dan wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:

Eight felonies by age 12. What should be done? And what are the chances this kid will straighten up, instead of spending decades in prison?

Well, let's see - what have we got to go on?



"... it was told to me by a fellow cyclist during a ride

this past week"



Hmm... so we don't even know how many times removed the

heresay is,

Wrong. The guy who told me was the guy whose car window was smashed in. It was his girlfriend's purse that was missing and later recovered.

... and can't explore whether the eight felony

charges were all for one incident wherein the kid chased

down some pedophile Ice Cream Man and assaulted the SOB.

The "hearsay" came from one of my better cycling friends. His "hearsay" included details like the fact that it actually took the kids two tries to hurl the large rock through the driver's side window. He knows that because the first attempt missed the window and dented the driver's door, which had to have it's skin replaced.

More details? He was astonished that the kids didn't steal the satellite radio or GPS units that were visible on the dash. Oddly, they did take power adapter cords for those things, which baffled him.

He was the one who phoned later for more information and was told there was no way the kid or his family would be able to cover the repair cost, even if so directed. The official he called said the names couldn't be divulged because the kid's a juvenile, and that he already had eight felony convictions.

All this was told to me spontaneously by my friend, triggered by us riding past the area where the car was broken into and the purse stolen. It's pretty silly to pretend it was all imaginary, or that the kid is some young Robin Hood defending the world against pedophiles.

That's probably not it, but we don't know what "it" is,

except that the kid was somehow suspected of association

with alleged rock throwing, window breaking, purse theft.



To abandon *hope* for a 12-year old child - under *any*

circumstances - is pretty damned cynical.

Dan, you're trying to avoid the issue. If you prefer, for sake of discussion, we can talk about some _other_ hypothetical kid who actually _was_ previously convicted with eight felony offenses by age 12, and who was just caught stealing a purse.

What specific actions do you think are likely to turn such a kid around?

Don't say "It Takes A Village." That's the title of a book, it's not a plan of action that will save a kid with little hope.

- Frank Krygowski

On 7/14/2013 10:23 PM, Dan wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:

On Sunday, July 14, 2013 8:04:28 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/14/2013 6:47 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:


I deplore the fate of such kids [8 felonies by age 12]. But I think the odds are heavily against them turning to legitimate careers and staying out of jail. Sociologists don't seem to have figured out how to make that happen.


If one's worldview is to consign every problem to an
'expert', then yes I suppose one might lose hope.

I'm not aware of "amateurs" doing much better in such situations. In this kid's case, that would probably include his family. Doesn't look like they're doing much good.


It takes a village, but if you're not aware of ordinary
individuals making a positive difference in the lives of
others then I'm afraid maybe it's *you* who's beyond hope.

Eight felonies by age 12. What should be done? And what are the chances this kid will straighten up, instead of spending decades in prison?


Well, let's see - what have we got to go on?

"... it was told to me by a fellow cyclist during a ride
this past week"

Hmm... so we don't even know how many times removed the
heresay is, and can't explore whether the eight felony
charges were all for one incident wherein the kid chased
down some pedophile Ice Cream Man and assaulted the SOB.

That's probably not it, but we don't know what "it" is,
except that the kid was somehow suspected of association
with alleged rock throwing, window breaking, purse theft.

To abandon *hope* for a 12-year old child - under *any*
circumstances - is pretty damned cynical.


The experts' track record of psychiatric drugs hasn't
worked, which doesn't stop them from more meddling at ever
higher costs, perverse outcomes notwithstanding.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Monday, July 15, 2013 8:50:49 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Sunday, July 14, 2013 11:23:18 PM UTC-4, Dan wrote:

Frank Krygowski writes:

Eight felonies by age 12. What should be done? And what are the chances this kid will straighten up, instead of spending decades in prison?

Well, let's see - what have we got to go on?

"... it was told to me by a fellow cyclist during a ride
this past week"

Hmm... so we don't even know how many times removed the
heresay is,

Wrong. The guy who told me was the guy whose car window was smashed in. It was his girlfriend's purse that was missing and later recovered.


I thought you said they weren't even there when the theft occurred,
and you don't even say where the information about 8 felonies came
from, which is your basis for no hope, and was who knows how many
more degrees of heresay.

... and can't explore whether the eight felony
charges were all for one incident wherein the kid chased
down some pedophile Ice Cream Man and assaulted the SOB.

The "hearsay" came from one of my better cycling friends. His "hearsay" included details like the fact that it actually took the kids two tries to hurl the large rock through the driver's side window. He knows that because the first attempt missed the window and dented the driver's door, which had to have it's skin replaced.


He doesn't know that. Maybe they dented the door on purpose. Maybe
somebody else dented the door. Maybe they tried *sixteen* times and
missed the car the other fourteen.

(And anyway it's all hearsay coming from you... )

And anyway this is his speculation about the rock throwing - not the
eight felonies.

More details? He was astonished that the kids didn't steal the satellite radio or GPS units that were visible on the dash. Oddly, they did take power adapter cords for those things, which baffled him.


Perhaps they think that the devices may be traceable - power cords not so
much. Perhaps they know that in the stolen goods market, mobile devices
are in ample supply but the necessary power cords not so much, giving them
demand and value there.

(You have a lot of really deep thinking friends, my friend :-)

He was the one who phoned later for more information and was told there was no way the kid or his family would be able to cover the repair cost, even if so directed. The official he called said the names couldn't be divulged because the kid's a juvenile, and that he already had eight felony convictions.


So let's see: You - your friend - some official, a lot of speculation,
no details on anything except broken glass, a dented door, a big rock, a
missing (then found) purse, some power cords, somebody's opinion about
some other people's ability to pay restitution, and... what's this?...
Specific details (the eight felonies) of a juvenile record divulged to
someone who has no business with the information? Hmm...

The "8 felonies" was hearsay, who knows how many times removed, and in
fact seems to have come to light in a sort of loose gossip way.

None of the kids were packin' heat? Better watch out for someone like
Z. No hope, indeed.

All this was told to me spontaneously by my friend, triggered by us riding past the area where the car was broken into and the purse stolen. It's pretty silly to pretend it was all imaginary, or that the kid is some young Robin Hood defending the world against pedophiles.


I never even suggested that the smash and grab didn't happen. And I
wasn't pretending anything - just said we don't know that *wasn't*
the basis of the (third or fourth or... n-hand purported) previous
felonies.

That's probably not it, but we don't know what "it" is,
except that the kid was somehow suspected of association
with alleged rock throwing, window breaking, purse theft.

To abandon *hope* for a 12-year old child - under *any*
circumstances - is pretty damned cynical.

Dan, you're trying to avoid the issue. If you prefer, for sake of discussion, we can talk about some _other_ hypothetical kid who actually _was_ previously convicted with eight felony offenses by age 12, and who was just caught stealing a purse.


*Any* 12-year old child (anyone of any age IMO, but especially a young
kid) - under *any* circumstances.

Come on, Frank - hope? You'd deny anyone *hope*?

What specific actions do you think are likely to turn such a kid around?


The development of psychological and emotional well being.

Don't say "It Takes A Village." That's the title of a book, it's not a plan of action that will save a kid with little hope.


At least now it's with hope - and that's everything, brother.

I haven't seen the book, but have heard the expression. To me it's
a concise philosophical statement that parents alone cannot meet all
the needs of their child. That too many parents cannot meet the most
fundamental psychological and emotional needs makes it all more
applicable.

To me, the eight felonies seems a likely indication of unmet needs.

For a specific action plan, you'd need to be in a position to know and
understand as many details as possible - intimately - and to develop
that understanding and adjust the approach dynamically in an organic,
personal, loose but ideally not too tenuous human feedback loop.

Personally, I don't think it even takes a miracle; but if you do,
what's the matter - don't believe in miracles?

On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 20:23:18 -0700, Dan
wrote:

To abandon *hope* for a 12-year old child - under *any*
circumstances - is pretty damned cynical.

True. Persistence pays off eventually. I'm undecided on whether
there's any hope for this 12 year old aspiring burglar or the window
smasher. The problem is not that they're stealing, which most 12 year
old will at least try. I know because I did that. The problem is
that they got caught and repeated their mistakes. Any 12 year old
with at least 1/2 of a brain can get away with a burglary and not get
caught. Robbing a bank is a bit much, but if he had been a bit
quicker, he could have done a "smash and grab" and be gone on his
bicycle before the police arrived. My conclusion is that these kids
don't have the necessary intelligence to pull off a successful
burglary and will continue to fail if they repeat the exercise. From
that perspective, there's no hope.

For what it's worth, I was a model juvenile delinquent until I was
about 17 years old. The problem was that I was too smart to be
(easily) caught, and therefore did not have many visits to the Smog
Angeles juvenile hall. What got my attention was when my father took
me to lunch one day after work. Instead of the usual Iranian owned
Jewish delicatessen, we ended up at the downtown church run Union
Rescue Mission. That's the soup kitchen of it's day, known today as a
homeless shelter. I ended up sitting next to someone that smelled as
bad as he looked. Neither my father or I said anything as it was
obvious this had been arranged with the priest (which included hiring
a guard to keep the car from getting trashed or stolen). Everyone was
staring at me, or seemed to be staring at me.

On the way back to the factory, my father was again silent. But, when
he parked the car, he turned to me and said "That's what happens when
you screw up". I got the message and cleaned up my act. While I'm
hardly a model citizen, I changed my lifestyle sufficiently to become
socially acceptable. That incluced several moves to get away from bad
influences, which might be the problem with the 12 year old kid.

More recently. I've been doing something like that to other kids.
However, it's not over crime, as I don't seem to have any effect in
that area. It's over smoking. For a while, I was dragging 10-13 year
olds, that were caught smoking, to the local hospital and giving them
a tour of the lung cancer and emphysema survivors. I don't have to
give a lecture as most of the patients will try to jump out of bed and
lecture the kid on the bad things that smoking can do. Batting
average is about 50% which I consider good enough. Something like
that should be done with kids that are into crime, but I don't have a
workable method that would even come close to 50% success.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 7/15/2013 1:55 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 20:23:18 -0700, Dan
wrote:

To abandon *hope* for a 12-year old child - under *any*
circumstances - is pretty damned cynical.

True. Persistence pays off eventually. I'm undecided on whether
there's any hope for this 12 year old aspiring burglar or the window
smasher. The problem is not that they're stealing, which most 12 year
old will at least try. I know because I did that. The problem is
that they got caught and repeated their mistakes. Any 12 year old
with at least 1/2 of a brain can get away with a burglary and not get
caught. Robbing a bank is a bit much, but if he had been a bit
quicker, he could have done a "smash and grab" and be gone on his
bicycle before the police arrived. My conclusion is that these kids
don't have the necessary intelligence to pull off a successful
burglary and will continue to fail if they repeat the exercise. From
that perspective, there's no hope.

For what it's worth, I was a model juvenile delinquent until I was
about 17 years old. The problem was that I was too smart to be
(easily) caught, and therefore did not have many visits to the Smog
Angeles juvenile hall. What got my attention was when my father took
me to lunch one day after work. Instead of the usual Iranian owned
Jewish delicatessen, we ended up at the downtown church run Union
Rescue Mission. That's the soup kitchen of it's day, known today as a
homeless shelter. I ended up sitting next to someone that smelled as
bad as he looked. Neither my father or I said anything as it was
obvious this had been arranged with the priest (which included hiring
a guard to keep the car from getting trashed or stolen). Everyone was
staring at me, or seemed to be staring at me.

On the way back to the factory, my father was again silent. But, when
he parked the car, he turned to me and said "That's what happens when
you screw up". I got the message and cleaned up my act. While I'm
hardly a model citizen, I changed my lifestyle sufficiently to become
socially acceptable. That incluced several moves to get away from bad
influences, which might be the problem with the 12 year old kid.

More recently. I've been doing something like that to other kids.
However, it's not over crime, as I don't seem to have any effect in
that area. It's over smoking. For a while, I was dragging 10-13 year
olds, that were caught smoking, to the local hospital and giving them
a tour of the lung cancer and emphysema survivors. I don't have to
give a lecture as most of the patients will try to jump out of bed and
lecture the kid on the bad things that smoking can do. Batting
average is about 50% which I consider good enough. Something like
that should be done with kids that are into crime, but I don't have a
workable method that would even come close to 50% success.




In re hope, this is the most inspiring tale I've read this
summer, an excerpt from:
http://moot.typepad.com/what_if/2013...crates-do.html

Shorris recounts the story of a young man in his first class
— a 24-year-old with a history of violent behavior — who
called him describing how a woman at work had provoked him.
"She made me so mad, I wanted to smack her up against the
wall. I tried to talk to some friends to calm myself down a
little, but nobody was around." Shorris asked him what he
did, "fearing this was his one telephone call from the city
jail."

Instead, he told Shorris, "I asked myself, 'What would
Socrates do?' "

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Monday, July 15, 2013 2:34:24 PM UTC-4, Dan O wrote:

For a specific action plan, you'd need to be in a position to know and

understand as many details as possible - intimately - and to develop

that understanding and adjust the approach dynamically in an organic,

personal, loose but ideally not too tenuous human feedback loop.

Sounds like you can't even suggest a plausible plan. Not helpful, Dan.

- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, July 15, 2013 2:55:12 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

For what it's worth, I was a model juvenile delinquent until I was

about 17 years old. The problem was that I was too smart to be

(easily) caught, and therefore did not have many visits to the Smog

Angeles juvenile hall. What got my attention was when my father took

me to lunch one day after work. Instead of the usual Iranian owned

Jewish delicatessen, we ended up at the downtown church run Union

Rescue Mission. That's the soup kitchen of it's day, known today as a

homeless shelter. I ended up sitting next to someone that smelled as

bad as he looked. Neither my father or I said anything as it was

obvious this had been arranged with the priest (which included hiring

a guard to keep the car from getting trashed or stolen). Everyone was

staring at me, or seemed to be staring at me.



On the way back to the factory, my father was again silent. But, when

he parked the car, he turned to me and said "That's what happens when

you screw up". I got the message and cleaned up my act. While I'm

hardly a model citizen, I changed my lifestyle sufficiently to become

socially acceptable. That incluced several moves to get away from bad

influences, which might be the problem with the 12 year old kid.

Your father sounds very wise. I wonder if that method gets tried with other kids - kids who, like many these days, have no contact with their father?

FWIW, I really do believe we need _some_ method of correction other than what's being commonly used today. Recidivism is very high, especially in a case like this kid's. According to p. 235 of http://www.ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/nr2006...ads/NR2006.pdf
there's a greater than 96% chance the kid is going to be brought to court yet again.

I recall reading a slim book about 40 years ago. No way to know the title now, but its message was that our typical ways of responding to aggression, crime, etc. don't work well, and can doubtlessly be improved. One anecdote that stuck with me involved an elderly woman in the inner city who was accosted by two young toughs as she walked to her apartment, carrying two bags of groceries. As she described it, the two guys matched pace with her, one on each side and very close, and she was sure they intended to mug her as soon as nobody was visible.

So she immediately engaged them in a friendly manner, saying something like "Oh, you men want to help me with my groceries!" and handed them each a bag. They carried her bags to her door and deposited them on her step as she opened her door.

The technique being described was, specifically, to violate the perps' mental script. The book mentioned that most crimes get at least a brief plan or vision, and that doing something that greatly violates that plan can defuse the situation. (I've had a little success over the years using that idea.)

Now this is one trick - sort of a mental jiu-jitsu - that might apply in specific one-on-one situations, not in the case of a 12-year-old with 8 felonies. But it indicates to me that there might be other "out of the box" strategies that our society could be using.

- Frank Krygowski