More on conspicuity

John B. wrote:
On Sat, 25 Mar 2017 00:01:00 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/24/2017 9:23 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:16:07 -0700, Joerg
wrote:


Sometimes they are [jerks]. Like a week ago when the guy leaned on the horn and
gradually pushed me to the side of the road as punishment for taking
"his" lane. He had even pulled into that lane from the other (fast) lane
just to show me who is boss. Yes, those are jerks. Jerks who should not
even have a driver license.

But after all, wasn't it "His lane too"?

No.

I do remember, on one bike tour, having a low life multi-tattooed pickup
driver yell at me "Get out of my road." Our offense (there were three of
us riding together) was taking our place in a line of traffic moving at
about 10 mph.

I was not shy about telling him it was not "his" road. I think my, um,
lack of diplomacy shocked one of my touring companions.

But was it "your road"?

As an aside, I rather resent the inference that those driving pickup
trucks are low lifes. After all, I drive a pickup, my sister-in-law,
who is a small rice trader, drives a pickup. In fact I know a rather
large number of people who drive pickups, the majority of whom are
probably under the impression that they are just normal folks.
--
Cheers,

John B.



There are people who drive pickup trucks because pickup trucks are a
rational vehicle choice for them (they need to haul a bunch of stuff from
here to there). There are also people who drive pickup trucks as a
lifestyle choice (because they aspire to the redneck lifestyle and want to
drive a big loud threatening vehicle). The second group is more likely to
cause trouble for cyclists.

On 2017-03-24 18:23, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:16:07 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-23 09:58, Doc O'Leary wrote:
For your reference, records indicate that
John B. wrote:

Are Thai's just nicer people than N. Americans? I wonder.

I think it’s a mistake to attribute it to moral character prematurely.


True, but I still think John has got a point. I have met a lot of Thai
people and others from Southeast Asia in my life and the only time I
have experienced anyone being really angry was inside their spousal
relationship (but not worse than happens at times in any such relationship).


I'm not sure that including the bit about "spousal relationships" is
really confidence building as Thai doctors are the most skillful in
the world at penial reattachments?


Ouch, I didn't know it could go that far.


There are all sorts of other factors that might produce the difference
in behavior. How much driving is done by the general population? How
much biking? How wide are the roads compared to the vehicles? What
are the speed differences between the different vehicles? Is the
actual accident rate higher, or is it more a perception of danger?

I dislike a close pass as much as anyone, but I’m not going to assume
it happened because the driver is a jerk.


Sometimes they are. Like a week ago when the guy leaned on the horn and
gradually pushed me to the side of the road as punishment for taking
"his" lane. He had even pulled into that lane from the other (fast) lane
just to show me who is boss. Yes, those are jerks. Jerks who should not
even have a driver license.

But after all, wasn't it "His lane too"?


Sure. However, he has to yield to a slower vehicle and pass it when safe
to do so. In this case he alread was in the fast lane and could have
just blown by, I was in the slow lane. He switched lanes, raced up
really close to me, leaned on the horn and then pushed me over to the
side by coming really close with the right front fender. One of those
road rage knuckleheads. It's usually best not to p... them off any more
because you might not have the front teeth anymore afterwards. They are
often people with lots of bar fight muscle but a peanut brain. Just
low-lifes.

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-03-25 12:06, Doc O'Leary wrote:
For your reference, records indicate that
Joerg wrote:

On 2017-03-23 09:58, Doc O'Leary wrote:

I dislike a close pass as much as anyone, but I’m not going to assume
it happened because the driver is a jerk.


Sometimes they are. Like a week ago when the guy leaned on the horn and
gradually pushed me to the side of the road as punishment for taking
"his" lane. He had even pulled into that lane from the other (fast) lane
just to show me who is boss. Yes, those are jerks. Jerks who should not
even have a driver license.

Totally a different class of behavior than that of basic visibility
and safe distance. Someone threatening you with their vehicle is
not simply “jerk� behavior. It is assault with a deadly weapon.
Perhaps even attempted murder. That is something that needs to be
escalated each and every time it happens. Get their license plate
and file a report with the police.


Makes no difference whatsoever. Plus no witness on my side.


... Maybe they’re a safe driver
that simply has an excellent sense of their vehicle’s space. Maybe
they see that I am biking fast and straight, and think it’ll be
perfectly safe to go past me without much clearance.


Only to cause the cyclist to be destabilized a bit by the vortex effect
and being hit by the next car? Such behavior is stupid and dangerous.

Yes, it is. But that doesn’t imply bad intent by the stupid person
who does it. If they don’t do a lot of biking it traffic, they simply
might not know what it is like to be on the receiving end of that kind
of behavior.


However, there is a 3ft legal requirement and a driver must obey laws.


I have testified as a witness in court in a case where a cyclist was
brutally pushed off the road and crashed into the ditch. Guess what, the
trucker got a slap on the wrist. Nada, nothing else. Justice? Phhht.

What do you want to hear? That extrajudicial action is appropriate
when the system fails people? If that’s the answer, then civilization
is hanging by a very thin thread.

Can’t for the life of my figure out what this has to do with .tech at
this point, so I’m going to loop in .misc and hope the thread migrates
there . . .



--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Sat, 25 Mar 2017 13:32:08 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/25/2017 1:28 AM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 25 Mar 2017 00:01:00 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/24/2017 9:23 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:16:07 -0700, Joerg
wrote:


Sometimes they are [jerks]. Like a week ago when the guy leaned on the horn and
gradually pushed me to the side of the road as punishment for taking
"his" lane. He had even pulled into that lane from the other (fast) lane
just to show me who is boss. Yes, those are jerks. Jerks who should not
even have a driver license.

But after all, wasn't it "His lane too"?

No.

I do remember, on one bike tour, having a low life multi-tattooed pickup
driver yell at me "Get out of my road." Our offense (there were three of
us riding together) was taking our place in a line of traffic moving at
about 10 mph.

I was not shy about telling him it was not "his" road. I think my, um,
lack of diplomacy shocked one of my touring companions.

But was it "your road"?

The road is not a possession of any individual. It's a facility
available to serve the public.

Exactly.

And come to think of it, in his analysis of the foundation principles of
traffic law, John Forester listed this principle: "First come, first
served." That is, any legal road user is allowed safe access to the
roadway for a reasonable distance in front of him. He doesn't lose that
access if someone else would prefer otherwise. The faster motorist
behind (or in my example, the obnoxious motorist who could not move any
faster than we were) cannot clear the road in front of him by demand.

Sorry about John but every state highway law that I have read, and
that isn't intended to mean I've read them all, has stated that "thou
shall not impede", usually in the form of something like "slower
traffic shall drive in such a manner as to not impede faster traffic".

I can't say that I've read that "a vehicle has the right to the road
for some specific distance ahead of them".


As an aside, I rather resent the inference that those driving pickup
trucks are low lifes. After all, I drive a pickup, my sister-in-law,
who is a small rice trader, drives a pickup. In fact I know a rather
large number of people who drive pickups, the majority of whom are
probably under the impression that they are just normal folks.

There was no such inference. This particular low-life was driving a
pickup truck. In stating that, I made no claim that all pickup drivers
are low-lifes.

No you didn't specifically state that people that drive pickups are
low life's.. What you said was "a low life multi-tattooed pickup
driver" which does tend to make one think that you equate pickups and
low life's. Or is it only tattooed pickup drivers who are the
low-life's??


This evening I'll be off doing volunteer skilled work at a charity event
with two of my very best friends. They both drive pickup trucks.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 25 Mar 2017 18:34:48 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Sat, 25 Mar 2017 00:01:00 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/24/2017 9:23 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:16:07 -0700, Joerg
wrote:


Sometimes they are [jerks]. Like a week ago when the guy leaned on the horn and
gradually pushed me to the side of the road as punishment for taking
"his" lane. He had even pulled into that lane from the other (fast) lane
just to show me who is boss. Yes, those are jerks. Jerks who should not
even have a driver license.

But after all, wasn't it "His lane too"?

No.

I do remember, on one bike tour, having a low life multi-tattooed pickup
driver yell at me "Get out of my road." Our offense (there were three of
us riding together) was taking our place in a line of traffic moving at
about 10 mph.

I was not shy about telling him it was not "his" road. I think my, um,
lack of diplomacy shocked one of my touring companions.

But was it "your road"?

As an aside, I rather resent the inference that those driving pickup
trucks are low lifes. After all, I drive a pickup, my sister-in-law,
who is a small rice trader, drives a pickup. In fact I know a rather
large number of people who drive pickups, the majority of whom are
probably under the impression that they are just normal folks.
--
Cheers,

John B.



There are people who drive pickup trucks because pickup trucks are a
rational vehicle choice for them (they need to haul a bunch of stuff from
here to there). There are also people who drive pickup trucks as a
lifestyle choice (because they aspire to the redneck lifestyle and want to
drive a big loud threatening vehicle). The second group is more likely to
cause trouble for cyclists.

Do people actually select pickup trucks as opposed to say Mercedes 600
limos, assuming price is no object?

I can't say that I have ever met any although I did meet some folks in
Shreveport, La. that had plenty of money. One chap was a lawyer. His
firm had one client, something called the "William J. Abbot Estate" or
some such name.

I can't say for his income but I do know that his son was attending
Harvard and not on any student loan basis. His Missus drove a Mercedes
and he had, among other cars, a pickup. But he also owned a VW Bug and
a 1909 Sears & Roebuck "Motor Buggy" as well as several others.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 25 Mar 2017 12:37:26 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-24 18:23, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:16:07 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-23 09:58, Doc O'Leary wrote:
For your reference, records indicate that
John B. wrote:

Are Thai's just nicer people than N. Americans? I wonder.

I think it’s a mistake to attribute it to moral character prematurely.


True, but I still think John has got a point. I have met a lot of Thai
people and others from Southeast Asia in my life and the only time I
have experienced anyone being really angry was inside their spousal
relationship (but not worse than happens at times in any such relationship).


I'm not sure that including the bit about "spousal relationships" is
really confidence building as Thai doctors are the most skillful in
the world at penial reattachments?


Ouch, I didn't know it could go that far.


Actually the case that got the most attention was the lady that
curtailed her husband (for want of a better word) and flung it out the
window where a duck grabbed it and ran off.


There are all sorts of other factors that might produce the difference
in behavior. How much driving is done by the general population? How
much biking? How wide are the roads compared to the vehicles? What
are the speed differences between the different vehicles? Is the
actual accident rate higher, or is it more a perception of danger?

I dislike a close pass as much as anyone, but I’m not going to assume
it happened because the driver is a jerk.


Sometimes they are. Like a week ago when the guy leaned on the horn and
gradually pushed me to the side of the road as punishment for taking
"his" lane. He had even pulled into that lane from the other (fast) lane
just to show me who is boss. Yes, those are jerks. Jerks who should not
even have a driver license.

But after all, wasn't it "His lane too"?


Sure. However, he has to yield to a slower vehicle and pass it when safe
to do so. In this case he alread was in the fast lane and could have
just blown by, I was in the slow lane. He switched lanes, raced up
really close to me, leaned on the horn and then pushed me over to the
side by coming really close with the right front fender. One of those
road rage knuckleheads. It's usually best not to p... them off any more
because you might not have the front teeth anymore afterwards. They are
often people with lots of bar fight muscle but a peanut brain. Just
low-lifes.


Actually what the California Vehicle Code says is

"21654. (a) Notwithstanding the prima facie speed limits, any
vehicle proceeding upon a highway at a speed less than the normal
speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time shall be
driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close as practicable
to the right-hand edge or curb except when overtaking and passing
another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing
for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or
driveway.

(b) If a vehicle is being driven at a speed less than the normal
speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time, and is
not being driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close as
practicable to the right-hand edge or curb, it shall constitute prima
facie evidence that the driver is operating the vehicle in violation
of subdivision (a) of this section."

Nothing what so ever about yielding to slower drivers, but more the
" or as close as practicable to the right-hand edge or curb" mentioned
in both paragraph (a) and (b).
--
Cheers,

John B.

For your reference, records indicate that
Joerg wrote:

On 2017-03-25 12:06, Doc O'Leary wrote:

Totally a different class of behavior than that of basic visibility
and safe distance. Someone threatening you with their vehicle is
not simply “jerk� behavior. It is assault with a deadly weapon.
Perhaps even attempted murder. That is something that needs to be
escalated each and every time it happens. Get their license plate
and file a report with the police.


Makes no difference whatsoever. Plus no witness on my side.

Doesn’t matter. Unless you made the whole damn thing up, *someone
endangered your life*. That’s something that needs to be escalated.
Police reports allow for further actions, especially if the person in
question is a repeat offender. It is foolish to wait until that guy
kills someone (and then gets a slap on the wrist because it’s his
first offense on record) before anything gets done.

Here’s another radical idea: if you really live in such an awful
neighborhood, start recording your rides. In addition to filing
police reports with that evidence, post it online so that the world
forever knows who these assholes are.

However, there is a 3ft legal requirement and a driver must obey laws.

Make up your mind. Either they “must obey�, or they can do whatever
they want and it “makes no difference�.

--
"Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
River Tam, Trash, Firefly

On 3/26/2017 12:28 AM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 25 Mar 2017 13:32:08 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/25/2017 1:28 AM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 25 Mar 2017 00:01:00 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/24/2017 9:23 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:16:07 -0700, Joerg
wrote:


Sometimes they are [jerks]. Like a week ago when the guy leaned on the horn and
gradually pushed me to the side of the road as punishment for taking
"his" lane. He had even pulled into that lane from the other (fast) lane
just to show me who is boss. Yes, those are jerks. Jerks who should not
even have a driver license.

But after all, wasn't it "His lane too"?

No.

I do remember, on one bike tour, having a low life multi-tattooed pickup
driver yell at me "Get out of my road." Our offense (there were three of
us riding together) was taking our place in a line of traffic moving at
about 10 mph.

I was not shy about telling him it was not "his" road. I think my, um,
lack of diplomacy shocked one of my touring companions.

But was it "your road"?

The road is not a possession of any individual. It's a facility
available to serve the public.

Exactly.

And come to think of it, in his analysis of the foundation principles of
traffic law, John Forester listed this principle: "First come, first
served." That is, any legal road user is allowed safe access to the
roadway for a reasonable distance in front of him. He doesn't lose that
access if someone else would prefer otherwise. The faster motorist
behind (or in my example, the obnoxious motorist who could not move any
faster than we were) cannot clear the road in front of him by demand.

Sorry about John but every state highway law that I have read, and
that isn't intended to mean I've read them all, has stated that "thou
shall not impede", usually in the form of something like "slower
traffic shall drive in such a manner as to not impede faster traffic".

I can't say that I've read that "a vehicle has the right to the road
for some specific distance ahead of them".

Perhaps you didn't understand. What Forester wrote (paraphrased above)
was not the text of the laws. It was the foundation rationality behind
the laws. I suggest reading _Effective Cycling_ for details.

And yes, the laws assume a vehicle _operator_ (as opposed to a vehicle)
has a right to safe access to the road for a reasonable distance in
front. That's why there are laws forbidding pulling out of a side
street directly in front of someone; or pulling back into someone's lane
too soon after passing.

As an aside, I rather resent the inference that those driving pickup
trucks are low lifes. After all, I drive a pickup, my sister-in-law,
who is a small rice trader, drives a pickup. In fact I know a rather
large number of people who drive pickups, the majority of whom are
probably under the impression that they are just normal folks.

There was no such inference. This particular low-life was driving a
pickup truck. In stating that, I made no claim that all pickup drivers
are low-lifes.

No you didn't specifically state that people that drive pickups are
low life's.. What you said was "a low life multi-tattooed pickup
driver" which does tend to make one think that you equate pickups and
low life's. Or is it only tattooed pickup drivers who are the
low-life's??

I apply "low-life" to jerks who blare their horn and shout at bicyclists
stuck in the same 0 to 10mph queue as about 20 other motorists. Tattoos
and pickup were added to further describe the event. There were probably
other multi-tattooed pickup drivers in that line who were not low-lifes.

BTW, I didn't mention that low-life driver's passenger. She also had
multiple tattoos but was not driving. You may need to add foul-mouthed
pickup passengers to your list of people in your "protected class."

Further details? The passenger actually opened her door and stood on
the running board to more effectively yell at us and give obscene
gestures. A charming couple!


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2017-03-25 22:02, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 25 Mar 2017 12:37:26 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-24 18:23, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:16:07 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-23 09:58, Doc O'Leary wrote:

[...]

There are all sorts of other factors that might produce the difference
in behavior. How much driving is done by the general population? How
much biking? How wide are the roads compared to the vehicles? What
are the speed differences between the different vehicles? Is the
actual accident rate higher, or is it more a perception of danger?

I dislike a close pass as much as anyone, but I’m not going to assume
it happened because the driver is a jerk.


Sometimes they are. Like a week ago when the guy leaned on the horn and
gradually pushed me to the side of the road as punishment for taking
"his" lane. He had even pulled into that lane from the other (fast) lane
just to show me who is boss. Yes, those are jerks. Jerks who should not
even have a driver license.

But after all, wasn't it "His lane too"?


Sure. However, he has to yield to a slower vehicle and pass it when safe
to do so. In this case he alread was in the fast lane and could have
just blown by, I was in the slow lane. He switched lanes, raced up
really close to me, leaned on the horn and then pushed me over to the
side by coming really close with the right front fender. One of those
road rage knuckleheads. It's usually best not to p... them off any more
because you might not have the front teeth anymore afterwards. They are
often people with lots of bar fight muscle but a peanut brain. Just
low-lifes.


Actually what the California Vehicle Code says is

"21654. (a) Notwithstanding the prima facie speed limits, any
vehicle proceeding upon a highway at a speed less than the normal
speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time shall be
driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close as practicable
to the right-hand edge or curb except when overtaking and passing
another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing
for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or
driveway.


He and the other drivers were doing at lest the speed limit, most likely
more more, and were all in the fast lane. The he pulled right, gunned
the engine, passed the others on the right and slammed the brakes right
behind me while leaning on the horn. That's illegal out here.


(b) If a vehicle is being driven at a speed less than the normal
speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time, and is
not being driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close as
practicable to the right-hand edge or curb, it shall constitute prima
facie evidence that the driver is operating the vehicle in violation
of subdivision (a) of this section."

Nothing what so ever about yielding to slower drivers, but more the
" or as close as practicable to the right-hand edge or curb" mentioned
in both paragraph (a) and (b).


You are not allowed to crash into the back of a vehicle because it is
slower. You must move into the fast lane if you want to pass it. As I
said this guy _was_ in the fast lane and pulled into the right lane only
to show me who is boss.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 3/26/2017 12:41 AM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 25 Mar 2017 18:34:48 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone wrote:

There are people who drive pickup trucks because pickup trucks are a
rational vehicle choice for them (they need to haul a bunch of stuff from
here to there). There are also people who drive pickup trucks as a
lifestyle choice (because they aspire to the redneck lifestyle and want to
drive a big loud threatening vehicle). The second group is more likely to
cause trouble for cyclists.

Do people actually select pickup trucks as opposed to say Mercedes 600
limos, assuming price is no object?

Many years ago, I was teaching a robotics lab. At semester's end, I had
stayed to nearly midnight to allow the class to finish their workcell
projects. One young man offered to give me a ride home, an offer I
accepted.

He put my bike into the back of his large, spotless and luxurious pickup
truck. While I can't remember many details (except an excellent sound
system, a surprisingly quiet ride and sort of "mood lighting" in the
passenger compartment), I remember being astonished that it was like
riding in a luxury car.

--
- Frank Krygowski