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#91
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Chinese Carbon Wheelset
On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 23:49:48 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 09:57:36 -0000 (UTC), Duane wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 01:29:00 -0000 (UTC), Duane wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 11:52:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/26/2019 1:24 AM, James wrote: On 26/8/19 1:48 am, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/24/2019 9:58 PM, James wrote: On 25/8/19 7:36 am, Tom Kunich wrote: On Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 2:18:05 PM UTC-7, James wrote: On 25/8/19 5:18 am, Tom Kunich wrote: I have never used "carbon paste" for anything and can't imagine why. Imagine harder. -- JS Why? I have had CF frames for a long time. I've never even SEEN "carbon paste" let alone used it for anything. Because you complained about a CF seat post slipping.* You wrote: "In one point it again made that noise and it appears that it was the seat post moving. Think that I'll throw away that Campy Carbon *seatpost and install an aluminum one." So Tom is a case in point. He's got to be more mechanically competent *than most recreational cyclists. He's got decades of experience. But *even he doesn't know that carbon paste is recommended for many part *interfaces. I think there must be tens of thousands of newbies who will know less *than that, and will over-torque or otherwise damage lightweight CF parts, especially as CF gets less expensive and more common. To be fair, it is easy to over torque many fasteners on a modern bicycle that have no CF involved. Most A head stems, for example, are aluminium and spec'ed for ~7 Nm. Easy when you own a reasonable torque wrench designed for that low torque range, and easy to strip for those with fists of ham. And it's been easy to over torque stuff and damage parts for generations.* All cranks for square taper BBs for example.* If you properly grease the axle and nut or bolt, it is easy to pull a crank on too far by over torquing the fastener. Heck, if you over tighten spoke nipples you'll pull a nipple through an aluminium rim sooner or later, or damage a hub or break spokes! That's true, but the examples you gave pertain mostly to either lightweight equipment or equipment (cranks, spokes) that the casual cyclist doesn't typically deal with. Casual cyclists are the ones who are least likely to have torque wrenches, or to bother reading manuals for torque specs. Those people are most likely to adjust just a few things: Saddle height and tilt, stem height, handlebar tilt, and left-to-right handlebar straightness. Those can and should be designed to withstand ham-fisted newbie mechanics, and to not require exotic elixers that ordinary homeowners have never heard of. Maybe this could be a compromise: Make every bike in two models. One model would withstand the hacking of a typical garage mechanic. The other model would require a torque table and torque wrench. But the delicate model would come with bright red or bright yellow "DELICATE!" labels permanently fastened at every vulnerable joint. And somewhere on the frame, another bright yellow label saying "This DELICATE model is 124 grams [or whatever] lighter than its stronger mate." A great idea. Then of course, I can print up some labels saying "125 grams lighter" for those that want to be just that little bit better :-) -- But you guys don?t mock anyone do ya? In the words of the great Carl Marx, "from those according to their ability and to each according to their needs". -- Cheers, John B. Cute. No. History. -- Cheers, John B. No, I meant you. Not Marx. Who gets to define “needs”? Given what appears to be the present U.S. political system it apparently hasn't changed any since at least the 1700's. The "needy" are, as always, the guys you want to vote for you. -- Cheers, John B. |
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#92
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Chinese Carbon Wheelset
John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 23:49:48 -0000 (UTC), Duane wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 09:57:36 -0000 (UTC), Duane wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 01:29:00 -0000 (UTC), Duane wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 11:52:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/26/2019 1:24 AM, James wrote: On 26/8/19 1:48 am, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/24/2019 9:58 PM, James wrote: On 25/8/19 7:36 am, Tom Kunich wrote: On Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 2:18:05 PM UTC-7, James wrote: On 25/8/19 5:18 am, Tom Kunich wrote: I have never used "carbon paste" for anything and can't imagine why. Imagine harder. -- JS Why? I have had CF frames for a long time. I've never even SEEN "carbon paste" let alone used it for anything. Because you complained about a CF seat post slipping.* You wrote: "In one point it again made that noise and it appears that it was the seat post moving. Think that I'll throw away that Campy Carbon *seatpost and install an aluminum one." So Tom is a case in point. He's got to be more mechanically competent *than most recreational cyclists. He's got decades of experience. But *even he doesn't know that carbon paste is recommended for many part *interfaces. I think there must be tens of thousands of newbies who will know less *than that, and will over-torque or otherwise damage lightweight CF parts, especially as CF gets less expensive and more common. To be fair, it is easy to over torque many fasteners on a modern bicycle that have no CF involved. Most A head stems, for example, are aluminium and spec'ed for ~7 Nm. Easy when you own a reasonable torque wrench designed for that low torque range, and easy to strip for those with fists of ham. And it's been easy to over torque stuff and damage parts for generations.* All cranks for square taper BBs for example.* If you properly grease the axle and nut or bolt, it is easy to pull a crank on too far by over torquing the fastener. Heck, if you over tighten spoke nipples you'll pull a nipple through an aluminium rim sooner or later, or damage a hub or break spokes! That's true, but the examples you gave pertain mostly to either lightweight equipment or equipment (cranks, spokes) that the casual cyclist doesn't typically deal with. Casual cyclists are the ones who are least likely to have torque wrenches, or to bother reading manuals for torque specs. Those people are most likely to adjust just a few things: Saddle height and tilt, stem height, handlebar tilt, and left-to-right handlebar straightness. Those can and should be designed to withstand ham-fisted newbie mechanics, and to not require exotic elixers that ordinary homeowners have never heard of. Maybe this could be a compromise: Make every bike in two models. One model would withstand the hacking of a typical garage mechanic. The other model would require a torque table and torque wrench. But the delicate model would come with bright red or bright yellow "DELICATE!" labels permanently fastened at every vulnerable joint. And somewhere on the frame, another bright yellow label saying "This DELICATE model is 124 grams [or whatever] lighter than its stronger mate." A great idea. Then of course, I can print up some labels saying "125 grams lighter" for those that want to be just that little bit better :-) -- But you guys don?t mock anyone do ya? In the words of the great Carl Marx, "from those according to their ability and to each according to their needs". -- Cheers, John B. Cute. No. History. -- Cheers, John B. No, I meant you. Not Marx. Who gets to define “needs”? Given what appears to be the present U.S. political system it apparently hasn't changed any since at least the 1700's. The "needy" are, as always, the guys you want to vote for you. -- Cheers, Needs. Not needy. What are you on about? We were talking about cycling and required equipment. Do you just google out of context words to find nifty quotes? -- duane |
#93
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Chinese Carbon Wheelset
On Tuesday, 27 August 2019 21:39:49 UTC-4, Duane wrote:
John B. Slocomb wrote: On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 23:49:48 -0000 (UTC), Duane wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 09:57:36 -0000 (UTC), Duane wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 01:29:00 -0000 (UTC), Duane wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 11:52:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/26/2019 1:24 AM, James wrote: On 26/8/19 1:48 am, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/24/2019 9:58 PM, James wrote: On 25/8/19 7:36 am, Tom Kunich wrote: On Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 2:18:05 PM UTC-7, James wrote: On 25/8/19 5:18 am, Tom Kunich wrote: I have never used "carbon paste" for anything and can't imagine why. Imagine harder. -- JS Why? I have had CF frames for a long time. I've never even SEEN "carbon paste" let alone used it for anything. Because you complained about a CF seat post slipping.Â* You wrote: "In one point it again made that noise and it appears that it was the seat post moving. Think that I'll throw away that Campy Carbon Â*seatpost and install an aluminum one." So Tom is a case in point. He's got to be more mechanically competent Â*than most recreational cyclists. He's got decades of experience. But Â*even he doesn't know that carbon paste is recommended for many part Â*interfaces. I think there must be tens of thousands of newbies who will know less Â*than that, and will over-torque or otherwise damage lightweight CF parts, especially as CF gets less expensive and more common. To be fair, it is easy to over torque many fasteners on a modern bicycle that have no CF involved. Most A head stems, for example, are aluminium and spec'ed for ~7 Nm. Easy when you own a reasonable torque wrench designed for that low torque range, and easy to strip for those with fists of ham. And it's been easy to over torque stuff and damage parts for generations.Â* All cranks for square taper BBs for example.Â* If you properly grease the axle and nut or bolt, it is easy to pull a crank on too far by over torquing the fastener. Heck, if you over tighten spoke nipples you'll pull a nipple through an aluminium rim sooner or later, or damage a hub or break spokes! That's true, but the examples you gave pertain mostly to either lightweight equipment or equipment (cranks, spokes) that the casual cyclist doesn't typically deal with. Casual cyclists are the ones who are least likely to have torque wrenches, or to bother reading manuals for torque specs. Those people are most likely to adjust just a few things: Saddle height and tilt, stem height, handlebar tilt, and left-to-right handlebar straightness. Those can and should be designed to withstand ham-fisted newbie mechanics, and to not require exotic elixers that ordinary homeowners have never heard of. Maybe this could be a compromise: Make every bike in two models. One model would withstand the hacking of a typical garage mechanic. The other model would require a torque table and torque wrench. But the delicate model would come with bright red or bright yellow "DELICATE!" labels permanently fastened at every vulnerable joint. And somewhere on the frame, another bright yellow label saying "This DELICATE model is 124 grams [or whatever] lighter than its stronger mate." A great idea. Then of course, I can print up some labels saying "125 grams lighter" for those that want to be just that little bit better :-) -- But you guys don?t mock anyone do ya? In the words of the great Carl Marx, "from those according to their ability and to each according to their needs". -- Cheers, John B. Cute. No. History. -- Cheers, John B. No, I meant you. Not Marx. Who gets to define “needs”? Given what appears to be the present U.S. political system it apparently hasn't changed any since at least the 1700's. The "needy" are, as always, the guys you want to vote for you. -- Cheers, Needs. Not needy. What are you on about? We were talking about cycling and required equipment. Do you just google out of context words to find nifty quotes? -- duane My bicycling needs vary depending on where I ride. My needs in a bicycle that I'm taking on a two-weeks long unsupported logging/mining roads tour/ride are far different than my bicycling needs if I'm riding a paved road route that's mostly flat. Then there are my wants if I decide to build a bicycle as an experiment which is what I did with one MTB with a drop handlebar and a 9-speed 11 to 19 teeth corncob cassette couple to a 28-38-48 crankset and with 1.5" x 26" smooth tread tires. That bike is a lot of fun to ride and I love it on the hills that aren't too steep. that bike meets my needs for certain routes I ride a lot. For someone else that bike could be a real beast to ride. Cheers |
#94
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Chinese Carbon Wheelset
On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 at 7:49:49 PM UTC-4, Duane wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote: On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 at 11:19:10 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/27/2019 1:09 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 at 9:03:30 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/27/2019 10:29 AM, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, August 26, 2019 at 7:39:30 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/26/2019 7:46 PM, Duane wrote: You don’t create markets by convincing consumers to need what you want to sell. Don’t you think it’s possible the suppliers are responding to the market demand? That's extremely naive. Look at SUVs and pickup trucks as an example. Our area just took a massive economic hit because GM closed the Lordstown plant where the well-regarded Chevy Cruze was built. Their explanation? Cruze sales were dropping, SUVs were rising. But a local investigative reporter dug into the decision. It turns out it was made back when Cruze sales were at their peak and rising. GM turned down all advertising for the Cruze and turned up all advertising for SUVs, specifically because profit per unit is much higher for SUVs. And by golly, people bought more and more SUVs and fewer Cruzes. It's naive to think advertising and promotion don't work. If advertising didn't change market demand, advertising wouldn't be the massive, massive effort it is. What product have you purchased because of an advertisement? I almost bought a Taco Bell taco because I liked the talking Chihuahua -- but I lost interest. Yes, the market determines our choices, and the market wants to make money -- and it wants us to chose new options, etc., etc. Bad market! On the other hand, it did produce flush toilets, smart phones, STI and all sorts of things I use every day and appreciate. Good market! But you can market 'til the cows come home, and I'm not going to buy an F350, and I certainly don't miss the Chevy Cruze or Chevy anything. I haven't bought any bike item because of marketing. I was looking for road discs when they were hard to find. Some things I got because my cohorts were gushing about it. Some things I got OE because I bought a complete bike. That's where you get corralled -- buying complete bikes, but that isn't marketing as much as "here it is, take it or leave it." This also leaves out lust items and objects of art like custom steel frames. Those purchases defy marketing and are more like opioids and opioid receptor issues. I can't tell you why I lusted after a California Masi or an early Bruce Gordon. I'd have a very hard time thinking of something _I_ bought because of advertising, but that's not a fair test. I'm famously unfashionable among those who know me, I'm not a TV watcher so I see few ads and mute those that happen to be on, I do no recreational shopping, and I've always been an ad skeptic. I'm glad you won't buy an F350. But you can't seriously think that's the most appropriate vehicle for the majority of people who buy them. Ditto Cadillac Escalades, Jeeps of any flavor, and four wheel drive SUVs in general. (And Andrew will probably say folks should buy what they like. But the point is, they are told what to like.) Getting back to bikes, the latest mini-craze in our bike club is disc brakes and gravel bikes. Number of club incidences of caliper brake problems: Zero. Number of club rides that venture onto gravel roads: Zero. But like whatever the latest number of rear cogs, and whatever this week's fashion for front chainrings (or chainring, singular) there are people that just gotta have it. According to this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising_industry there's $167 billion annually betting that advertising works. It doesn't work on everybody, but if it didn't work well enough, they wouldn't spend all that money. Again, you should be gushing about gravel bikes. They're just carbon fiber or aluminum touring bikes from 1973 -- with discs and better gearing -- and stiffer BBs, better steering and generally lighter. Oh, and they can take larger tires -- a lot larger. And different sized wheels if that matters. You really should get one. If I ran my touring bike into a garage roof, I suppose I might look at a gravel bike. I do think they're a better choice for a lot of cyclists who currently run 23mm racing tires on bikes that can't fit 25mm or 28mm. (I do take my bike onto gravel pretty regularly for short distances, and it works fine.) But my point remains: Why did people ever buy the bikes limited to 25mm? Because they were stylish and promoted. Why are people buying gravel bikes now? In most cases, it's not because the customers have thought about their real needs and decided that design best satisfies them. They're buying them because they're stylish and promoted. -- - Frank Krygowski Today very few bikes are limited to narrow tires. And none of the older steel bikes were. I just pulled 18 mm tires off of my youngest daughter's Bridgestone Synergy and 23's fit on it easily and if she wasn't so light I could easily put 25's on there. I could put 28's on my Colnago. Perhaps there was a short period in which bikes were limited to 23's or less but that didn't last long. I don’t know of any road bikes that can’t take 25s these days. My Tarmac can but I run 23s. Won’t take 28s though. A key part of that paragraph is the phrase "these days." When manufacturers pushed frames that accepted only narrow tires, people bought them in droves.. That illustrates my point. The new trend is wider tires actually. A friend just bought a Trek madone with disc brakes and 32s. Seems like options abound. That option is, thankfully, a lot more available now. Let's hope that fashion doesn't ruin it. - Frank Krygowski |
#95
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Chinese Carbon Wheelset
On Wed, 28 Aug 2019 01:39:47 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 23:49:48 -0000 (UTC), Duane wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 09:57:36 -0000 (UTC), Duane wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 01:29:00 -0000 (UTC), Duane wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 11:52:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/26/2019 1:24 AM, James wrote: On 26/8/19 1:48 am, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/24/2019 9:58 PM, James wrote: On 25/8/19 7:36 am, Tom Kunich wrote: On Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 2:18:05 PM UTC-7, James wrote: On 25/8/19 5:18 am, Tom Kunich wrote: I have never used "carbon paste" for anything and can't imagine why. Imagine harder. -- JS Why? I have had CF frames for a long time. I've never even SEEN "carbon paste" let alone used it for anything. Because you complained about a CF seat post slipping.* You wrote: "In one point it again made that noise and it appears that it was the seat post moving. Think that I'll throw away that Campy Carbon *seatpost and install an aluminum one." So Tom is a case in point. He's got to be more mechanically competent *than most recreational cyclists. He's got decades of experience. But *even he doesn't know that carbon paste is recommended for many part *interfaces. I think there must be tens of thousands of newbies who will know less *than that, and will over-torque or otherwise damage lightweight CF parts, especially as CF gets less expensive and more common. To be fair, it is easy to over torque many fasteners on a modern bicycle that have no CF involved. Most A head stems, for example, are aluminium and spec'ed for ~7 Nm. Easy when you own a reasonable torque wrench designed for that low torque range, and easy to strip for those with fists of ham. And it's been easy to over torque stuff and damage parts for generations.* All cranks for square taper BBs for example.* If you properly grease the axle and nut or bolt, it is easy to pull a crank on too far by over torquing the fastener. Heck, if you over tighten spoke nipples you'll pull a nipple through an aluminium rim sooner or later, or damage a hub or break spokes! That's true, but the examples you gave pertain mostly to either lightweight equipment or equipment (cranks, spokes) that the casual cyclist doesn't typically deal with. Casual cyclists are the ones who are least likely to have torque wrenches, or to bother reading manuals for torque specs. Those people are most likely to adjust just a few things: Saddle height and tilt, stem height, handlebar tilt, and left-to-right handlebar straightness. Those can and should be designed to withstand ham-fisted newbie mechanics, and to not require exotic elixers that ordinary homeowners have never heard of. Maybe this could be a compromise: Make every bike in two models. One model would withstand the hacking of a typical garage mechanic. The other model would require a torque table and torque wrench. But the delicate model would come with bright red or bright yellow "DELICATE!" labels permanently fastened at every vulnerable joint. And somewhere on the frame, another bright yellow label saying "This DELICATE model is 124 grams [or whatever] lighter than its stronger mate." A great idea. Then of course, I can print up some labels saying "125 grams lighter" for those that want to be just that little bit better :-) -- But you guys don?t mock anyone do ya? In the words of the great Carl Marx, "from those according to their ability and to each according to their needs". -- Cheers, John B. Cute. No. History. -- Cheers, John B. No, I meant you. Not Marx. Who gets to define “needs”? Given what appears to be the present U.S. political system it apparently hasn't changed any since at least the 1700's. The "needy" are, as always, the guys you want to vote for you. -- Cheers, Needs. Not needy. What are you on about? We were talking about cycling and required equipment. Do you just google out of context words to find nifty quotes? I guess I probably do. I was replying to the guy who wrote, " Who gets to define “needs”?" Needy - "needy ~ adj 1. poor enough to need help from others" -- Cheers, John B. |
#96
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Chinese Carbon Wheelset
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, 27 August 2019 21:39:49 UTC-4, Duane wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 23:49:48 -0000 (UTC), Duane wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 09:57:36 -0000 (UTC), Duane wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 01:29:00 -0000 (UTC), Duane wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 11:52:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/26/2019 1:24 AM, James wrote: On 26/8/19 1:48 am, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/24/2019 9:58 PM, James wrote: On 25/8/19 7:36 am, Tom Kunich wrote: On Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 2:18:05 PM UTC-7, James wrote: On 25/8/19 5:18 am, Tom Kunich wrote: I have never used "carbon paste" for anything and can't imagine why. Imagine harder. -- JS Why? I have had CF frames for a long time. I've never even SEEN "carbon paste" let alone used it for anything. Because you complained about a CF seat post slipping.Â* You wrote: "In one point it again made that noise and it appears that it was the seat post moving. Think that I'll throw away that Campy Carbon Â*seatpost and install an aluminum one." So Tom is a case in point. He's got to be more mechanically competent Â*than most recreational cyclists. He's got decades of experience. But Â*even he doesn't know that carbon paste is recommended for many part Â*interfaces. I think there must be tens of thousands of newbies who will know less Â*than that, and will over-torque or otherwise damage lightweight CF parts, especially as CF gets less expensive and more common. To be fair, it is easy to over torque many fasteners on a modern bicycle that have no CF involved. Most A head stems, for example, are aluminium and spec'ed for ~7 Nm. Easy when you own a reasonable torque wrench designed for that low torque range, and easy to strip for those with fists of ham. And it's been easy to over torque stuff and damage parts for generations.Â* All cranks for square taper BBs for example.Â* If you properly grease the axle and nut or bolt, it is easy to pull a crank on too far by over torquing the fastener. Heck, if you over tighten spoke nipples you'll pull a nipple through an aluminium rim sooner or later, or damage a hub or break spokes! That's true, but the examples you gave pertain mostly to either lightweight equipment or equipment (cranks, spokes) that the casual cyclist doesn't typically deal with. Casual cyclists are the ones who are least likely to have torque wrenches, or to bother reading manuals for torque specs. Those people are most likely to adjust just a few things: Saddle height and tilt, stem height, handlebar tilt, and left-to-right handlebar straightness. Those can and should be designed to withstand ham-fisted newbie mechanics, and to not require exotic elixers that ordinary homeowners have never heard of. Maybe this could be a compromise: Make every bike in two models. One model would withstand the hacking of a typical garage mechanic. The other model would require a torque table and torque wrench. But the delicate model would come with bright red or bright yellow "DELICATE!" labels permanently fastened at every vulnerable joint. And somewhere on the frame, another bright yellow label saying "This DELICATE model is 124 grams [or whatever] lighter than its stronger mate." A great idea. Then of course, I can print up some labels saying "125 grams lighter" for those that want to be just that little bit better :-) -- But you guys don?t mock anyone do ya? In the words of the great Carl Marx, "from those according to their ability and to each according to their needs". -- Cheers, John B. Cute. No. History. -- Cheers, John B. No, I meant you. Not Marx. Who gets to define “needs”? Given what appears to be the present U.S. political system it apparently hasn't changed any since at least the 1700's. The "needy" are, as always, the guys you want to vote for you. -- Cheers, Needs. Not needy. What are you on about? We were talking about cycling and required equipment. Do you just google out of context words to find nifty quotes? -- duane My bicycling needs vary depending on where I ride. My needs in a bicycle that I'm taking on a two-weeks long unsupported logging/mining roads tour/ride are far different than my bicycling needs if I'm riding a paved road route that's mostly flat. Then there are my wants if I decide to build a bicycle as an experiment which is what I did with one MTB with a drop handlebar and a 9-speed 11 to 19 teeth corncob cassette couple to a 28-38-48 crankset and with 1.5" x 26" smooth tread tires. That bike is a lot of fun to ride and I love it on the hills that aren't too steep. that bike meets my needs for certain routes I ride a lot. For someone else that bike could be a real beast to ride. Cheers Nice explanation of needs and wants. No irrelevant quotes from Marx required. I don’t do touring any longer and my only activity close to utility cycling is my commute done on my road bike. So my needs and wants are pretty much the same. A nice fast bike and the time to ride it. -- duane |
#97
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Chinese Carbon Wheelset
John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2019 01:39:47 -0000 (UTC), Duane wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 23:49:48 -0000 (UTC), Duane wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 09:57:36 -0000 (UTC), Duane wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 01:29:00 -0000 (UTC), Duane wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 11:52:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/26/2019 1:24 AM, James wrote: On 26/8/19 1:48 am, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/24/2019 9:58 PM, James wrote: On 25/8/19 7:36 am, Tom Kunich wrote: On Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 2:18:05 PM UTC-7, James wrote: On 25/8/19 5:18 am, Tom Kunich wrote: I have never used "carbon paste" for anything and can't imagine why. Imagine harder. -- JS Why? I have had CF frames for a long time. I've never even SEEN "carbon paste" let alone used it for anything. Because you complained about a CF seat post slipping.* You wrote: "In one point it again made that noise and it appears that it was the seat post moving. Think that I'll throw away that Campy Carbon *seatpost and install an aluminum one." So Tom is a case in point. He's got to be more mechanically competent *than most recreational cyclists. He's got decades of experience. But *even he doesn't know that carbon paste is recommended for many part *interfaces. I think there must be tens of thousands of newbies who will know less *than that, and will over-torque or otherwise damage lightweight CF parts, especially as CF gets less expensive and more common. To be fair, it is easy to over torque many fasteners on a modern bicycle that have no CF involved. Most A head stems, for example, are aluminium and spec'ed for ~7 Nm. Easy when you own a reasonable torque wrench designed for that low torque range, and easy to strip for those with fists of ham. And it's been easy to over torque stuff and damage parts for generations.* All cranks for square taper BBs for example.* If you properly grease the axle and nut or bolt, it is easy to pull a crank on too far by over torquing the fastener. Heck, if you over tighten spoke nipples you'll pull a nipple through an aluminium rim sooner or later, or damage a hub or break spokes! That's true, but the examples you gave pertain mostly to either lightweight equipment or equipment (cranks, spokes) that the casual cyclist doesn't typically deal with. Casual cyclists are the ones who are least likely to have torque wrenches, or to bother reading manuals for torque specs. Those people are most likely to adjust just a few things: Saddle height and tilt, stem height, handlebar tilt, and left-to-right handlebar straightness. Those can and should be designed to withstand ham-fisted newbie mechanics, and to not require exotic elixers that ordinary homeowners have never heard of. Maybe this could be a compromise: Make every bike in two models. One model would withstand the hacking of a typical garage mechanic. The other model would require a torque table and torque wrench. But the delicate model would come with bright red or bright yellow "DELICATE!" labels permanently fastened at every vulnerable joint. And somewhere on the frame, another bright yellow label saying "This DELICATE model is 124 grams [or whatever] lighter than its stronger mate." A great idea. Then of course, I can print up some labels saying "125 grams lighter" for those that want to be just that little bit better :-) -- But you guys don?t mock anyone do ya? In the words of the great Carl Marx, "from those according to their ability and to each according to their needs". -- Cheers, John B. Cute. No. History. -- Cheers, John B. No, I meant you. Not Marx. Who gets to define “needs”? Given what appears to be the present U.S. political system it apparently hasn't changed any since at least the 1700's. The "needy" are, as always, the guys you want to vote for you. -- Cheers, Needs. Not needy. What are you on about? We were talking about cycling and required equipment. Do you just google out of context words to find nifty quotes? I guess I probably do. I was replying to the guy who wrote, " Who gets to define “needs”?" Needy - "needy ~ adj 1. poor enough to need help from others" -- Which is not needs. Cheers, John B. -- duane |
#98
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Chinese Carbon Wheelset
On Wed, 28 Aug 2019 09:54:43 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Wed, 28 Aug 2019 01:39:47 -0000 (UTC), Duane wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 23:49:48 -0000 (UTC), Duane wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 09:57:36 -0000 (UTC), Duane wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 01:29:00 -0000 (UTC), Duane wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 11:52:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/26/2019 1:24 AM, James wrote: On 26/8/19 1:48 am, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/24/2019 9:58 PM, James wrote: On 25/8/19 7:36 am, Tom Kunich wrote: On Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 2:18:05 PM UTC-7, James wrote: On 25/8/19 5:18 am, Tom Kunich wrote: I have never used "carbon paste" for anything and can't imagine why. Imagine harder. -- JS Why? I have had CF frames for a long time. I've never even SEEN "carbon paste" let alone used it for anything. Because you complained about a CF seat post slipping.* You wrote: "In one point it again made that noise and it appears that it was the seat post moving. Think that I'll throw away that Campy Carbon *seatpost and install an aluminum one." So Tom is a case in point. He's got to be more mechanically competent *than most recreational cyclists. He's got decades of experience. But *even he doesn't know that carbon paste is recommended for many part *interfaces. I think there must be tens of thousands of newbies who will know less *than that, and will over-torque or otherwise damage lightweight CF parts, especially as CF gets less expensive and more common. To be fair, it is easy to over torque many fasteners on a modern bicycle that have no CF involved. Most A head stems, for example, are aluminium and spec'ed for ~7 Nm. Easy when you own a reasonable torque wrench designed for that low torque range, and easy to strip for those with fists of ham. And it's been easy to over torque stuff and damage parts for generations.* All cranks for square taper BBs for example.* If you properly grease the axle and nut or bolt, it is easy to pull a crank on too far by over torquing the fastener. Heck, if you over tighten spoke nipples you'll pull a nipple through an aluminium rim sooner or later, or damage a hub or break spokes! That's true, but the examples you gave pertain mostly to either lightweight equipment or equipment (cranks, spokes) that the casual cyclist doesn't typically deal with. Casual cyclists are the ones who are least likely to have torque wrenches, or to bother reading manuals for torque specs. Those people are most likely to adjust just a few things: Saddle height and tilt, stem height, handlebar tilt, and left-to-right handlebar straightness. Those can and should be designed to withstand ham-fisted newbie mechanics, and to not require exotic elixers that ordinary homeowners have never heard of. Maybe this could be a compromise: Make every bike in two models. One model would withstand the hacking of a typical garage mechanic. The other model would require a torque table and torque wrench. But the delicate model would come with bright red or bright yellow "DELICATE!" labels permanently fastened at every vulnerable joint. And somewhere on the frame, another bright yellow label saying "This DELICATE model is 124 grams [or whatever] lighter than its stronger mate." A great idea. Then of course, I can print up some labels saying "125 grams lighter" for those that want to be just that little bit better :-) -- But you guys don?t mock anyone do ya? In the words of the great Carl Marx, "from those according to their ability and to each according to their needs". -- Cheers, John B. Cute. No. History. -- Cheers, John B. No, I meant you. Not Marx. Who gets to define “needs”? Given what appears to be the present U.S. political system it apparently hasn't changed any since at least the 1700's. The "needy" are, as always, the guys you want to vote for you. -- Cheers, Needs. Not needy. What are you on about? We were talking about cycling and required equipment. Do you just google out of context words to find nifty quotes? I guess I probably do. I was replying to the guy who wrote, " Who gets to define “needs”?" Needy - "needy ~ adj 1. poor enough to need help from others" -- Which is not needs. Cheers, John B. I can only assume that you don't have your dictionary handy. needs ~ adv 1. in such a manner as could not be otherwise 1. require as useful, just, or proper 2. have need of This piano needs the attention of a competent tuner 3. have or feel a need for always needs friends and money need ~ noun uncommon 1. a condition requiring relief she satisfied his need for affection; 2. anything that is necessary but lacking he had sufficient means to meet his simple needs; I tried to supply his wants 3. the psychological feature that arouses an organism to action toward a desired goal; the reason for the action; that which gives purpose and direction to behavior 4. a state of extreme poverty or destitution their indigence appalled him; a general state of need exists among the homeless Got it? -- Cheers, John B. |
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Chinese Carbon Wheelset
John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2019 09:54:43 -0000 (UTC), Duane wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Wed, 28 Aug 2019 01:39:47 -0000 (UTC), Duane wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 23:49:48 -0000 (UTC), Duane wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 09:57:36 -0000 (UTC), Duane wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 01:29:00 -0000 (UTC), Duane wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 11:52:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/26/2019 1:24 AM, James wrote: On 26/8/19 1:48 am, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/24/2019 9:58 PM, James wrote: On 25/8/19 7:36 am, Tom Kunich wrote: On Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 2:18:05 PM UTC-7, James wrote: On 25/8/19 5:18 am, Tom Kunich wrote: I have never used "carbon paste" for anything and can't imagine why. Imagine harder. -- JS Why? I have had CF frames for a long time. I've never even SEEN "carbon paste" let alone used it for anything. Because you complained about a CF seat post slipping.Â* You wrote: "In one point it again made that noise and it appears that it was the seat post moving. Think that I'll throw away that Campy Carbon Â*seatpost and install an aluminum one." So Tom is a case in point. He's got to be more mechanically competent Â*than most recreational cyclists. He's got decades of experience. But Â*even he doesn't know that carbon paste is recommended for many part Â*interfaces. I think there must be tens of thousands of newbies who will know less Â*than that, and will over-torque or otherwise damage lightweight CF parts, especially as CF gets less expensive and more common. To be fair, it is easy to over torque many fasteners on a modern bicycle that have no CF involved. Most A head stems, for example, are aluminium and spec'ed for ~7 Nm. Easy when you own a reasonable torque wrench designed for that low torque range, and easy to strip for those with fists of ham. And it's been easy to over torque stuff and damage parts for generations.Â* All cranks for square taper BBs for example.Â* If you properly grease the axle and nut or bolt, it is easy to pull a crank on too far by over torquing the fastener. Heck, if you over tighten spoke nipples you'll pull a nipple through an aluminium rim sooner or later, or damage a hub or break spokes! That's true, but the examples you gave pertain mostly to either lightweight equipment or equipment (cranks, spokes) that the casual cyclist doesn't typically deal with. Casual cyclists are the ones who are least likely to have torque wrenches, or to bother reading manuals for torque specs. Those people are most likely to adjust just a few things: Saddle height and tilt, stem height, handlebar tilt, and left-to-right handlebar straightness. Those can and should be designed to withstand ham-fisted newbie mechanics, and to not require exotic elixers that ordinary homeowners have never heard of. Maybe this could be a compromise: Make every bike in two models. One model would withstand the hacking of a typical garage mechanic. The other model would require a torque table and torque wrench. But the delicate model would come with bright red or bright yellow "DELICATE!" labels permanently fastened at every vulnerable joint. And somewhere on the frame, another bright yellow label saying "This DELICATE model is 124 grams [or whatever] lighter than its stronger mate." A great idea. Then of course, I can print up some labels saying "125 grams lighter" for those that want to be just that little bit better :-) -- But you guys don?t mock anyone do ya? In the words of the great Carl Marx, "from those according to their ability and to each according to their needs". -- Cheers, John B. Cute. No. History. -- Cheers, John B. No, I meant you. Not Marx. Who gets to define “needs”? Given what appears to be the present U.S. political system it apparently hasn't changed any since at least the 1700's. The "needy" are, as always, the guys you want to vote for you. -- Cheers, Needs. Not needy. What are you on about? We were talking about cycling and required equipment. Do you just google out of context words to find nifty quotes? I guess I probably do. I was replying to the guy who wrote, " Who gets to define “needs”?" Needy - "needy ~ adj 1. poor enough to need help from others" -- Which is not needs. Cheers, John B. I can only assume that you don't have your dictionary handy. needs ~ adv 1. in such a manner as could not be otherwise 1. require as useful, just, or proper 2. have need of This piano needs the attention of a competent tuner 3. have or feel a need for always needs friends and money need ~ noun uncommon 1. a condition requiring relief she satisfied his need for affection; 2. anything that is necessary but lacking he had sufficient means to meet his simple needs; I tried to supply his wants 3. the psychological feature that arouses an organism to action toward a desired goal; the reason for the action; that which gives purpose and direction to behavior 4. a state of extreme poverty or destitution their indigence appalled him; a general state of need exists among the homeless Got it? -- Cheers, John B. And you just pointed out before that needy means being poor enough to require help from others. If you don’t see the difference I give up. Google something else. And if you don’t want a CF road bike, don’t buy one. I don’t need one but I want one and I’m not so needy that I can’t afford one. -- duane |
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Chinese Carbon Wheelset
Frank Krygowski writes:
On 8/26/2019 11:14 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, August 26, 2019 at 7:47:01 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/26/2019 6:00 PM, Duane wrote: jbeattie wrote: I love my Emonda. It goes to 11, and as I was riding over hill and dale this weekend, I used every gear. Compared to my commuter pig, it's like an eBike. I should have gotten discs! Actually, the direct mount dual pivots stop really well, but there is the issue of rim wear. I don’t know about using every gear but I definitely appreciate my 11 speed. I’m loving the mid compact too. Rollers are my favorite and this setup works well. People do love mid compacts these days. Before that, they loved standard compacts. And before that, they loved 52-42. They once loved half-steps, too, and I forget what other schemes I may be leaving out. The one consistent fact is, whatever is being advertised right now is the bees knees! It's bizarre that you're criticizing a market trend that promotes wide gear ranges. What, to you, is a legitimate transmission? 42/52 13-21? Are you criticizing spinning? I don't get it with all your complaining about racing bikes with narrow gear ranges being foisted on the unwary consumer. I'm not complaining about any of those. I'm merely pointing out that the fashions continually change, and people continually buy into what's in fashion. The leading fashion I see here is mostly monstrous fat bikes with knobbies inflated to 8 psi, but ridden on MUPs. Not carbon racing bikes unsafe at any speed. |
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