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  #41  
Old August 4th 19, 02:14 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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On 8/3/2019 5:53 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 12:19:50 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 8/3/2019 11:55 AM, jbeattie wrote:
... even a sensible Democrat is clearly superior to the insane asylum the Left has conjured up out of the fraudulent "oppression" of tiny minorities, who together cannot account for rolling a single log...


Agreed. And I think lots of people agree.

Murder is definitional -- and if it is licensed, it is not murder. Whether one can murder a fetus in the US varies from state to state. The religious and historical prohibition on murder was to maintain social peace and order. The Fifth Commandment did not apply to a fetus, at least not absolutely and not according to the Jews -- whose God god wrote the rule (although the original was lost for many years until found by Stephen Spielberg.) Regrettably, Catholics and conservative Christians have pushed for prohibition as an article of faith and without regard to what becomes of the fetus once born, and in fact Christian conservatives bemoan the "welfare state."


I disagree with that final sentence. At least around here, there are
many church-based institutions that care for women and children, and
there are ongoing congregational charity drives for them. We contribute.


I'm not "into" women's rights but can the death of a fetus that would
not survive if removed from the mother logically be termed "murder"?
--
cheers,

John B.


Because under several State statutes, killing a pregnant
woman is a double homicide.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/...tate-laws.aspx

There was a federal statute but I don't know if it's current.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


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  #42  
Old August 4th 19, 02:28 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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On 8/3/2019 7:04 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/3/2019 4:01 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 9:19:52 AM UTC-7, Frank
Krygowski wrote:
On 8/3/2019 11:55 AM, jbeattie wrote:
... even a sensible Democrat is clearly superior to the
insane asylum the Left has conjured up out of the
fraudulent "oppression" of tiny minorities, who together
cannot account for rolling a single log...

Agreed. And I think lots of people agree.

Murder is definitional -- and if it is licensed, it is
not murder. Whether one can murder a fetus in the US
varies from state to state. The religious and historical
prohibition on murder was to maintain social peace and
order. The Fifth Commandment did not apply to a fetus,
at least not absolutely and not according to the Jews --
whose God god wrote the rule (although the original was
lost for many years until found by Stephen Spielberg.)
Regrettably, Catholics and conservative Christians have
pushed for prohibition as an article of faith and
without regard to what becomes of the fetus once born,
and in fact Christian conservatives bemoan the "welfare
state."

I disagree with that final sentence. At least around
here, there are
many church-based institutions that care for women and
children, and
there are ongoing congregational charity drives for them.
We contribute.


I'm talking about the Christian right and its approach to
state welfare.
https://scholarworks.wmich.edu/cgi/v...1&context=jssw

This has nothing to do with charitable giving -- which is
great -- but accounts for a small fraction of total
welfare costs.


You're still wrong when you include Catholics in "without
regard to what becomes of the fetus once born." You're
mistakenly treating Catholics as one unified bloc marching
in step. And you're ignoring the Church's general attitude
toward social safety nets, as well as the immense (really,
unequaled) amount of charity work done by institutions and
people connected with the Church.



Indeed they are as riven a group as bicyclists, the
conservative Catholics and the wacko commies such as Francis
the Argentine.

celebrate diversity! and oh, do they ever.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #43  
Old August 4th 19, 02:32 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 5:19:52 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/3/2019 11:55 AM, jbeattie wrote:
... even a sensible Democrat is clearly superior to the insane asylum the Left has conjured up out of the fraudulent "oppression" of tiny minorities, who together cannot account for rolling a single log...


Agreed. And I think lots of people agree.
--
- Frank Krygowski


Er, Franki-boy, are you absolutely sure you want to agree with the sentence you quote? Jay didn't write it. I wrote it. And you agreed to it. Here is the full sentence for context of what you agreed to:
"The current president is hardly a conservative -- he's a moderate Democrat who walked through the wrong caucus door -- but even a sensible Democrat is clearly superior to the insane asylum the Left has conjured up out of the fraudulent "oppression" of tiny minorities, who together cannot account for rolling a single log, as we shall discover in November 2020."

Andre Jute
When the wrong people start agreeing with me, it is time to consider whether I thought deeply enough about the matter
  #44  
Old August 4th 19, 02:33 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 10,776
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On 8/3/2019 7:59 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Tom Kunich writes:

On Thursday, August 1, 2019 at 6:03:16 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, August 1, 2019 at 5:29:18 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
I know this is off topic but I don't find the answer anywhere else.

Today's news has Pres. Trump accusing the Chinese of continuing to
sell fentanyl to the United States -- "and many Americans continue to
die!"

But my research shows that fentanyl is a medical drug for the
alleviation of severe pain and as such I would assume to be a
controlled substance. How than, "many Americans continue to die!" ?

See
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/01/w...nyl-trump.html
Fentanyl and all its variants are now controlled substances in China
which, of course, does not stop illegal trade.

-- Jay Beattie.


Jay, Fentanyl was developed to be used as an injectable painkiller
when all else fails. The people in the final stages of cancer and the
like do not respond much to most of the pain killers on the market
including the strongest forms of Morphine.


I'm not sure what the idea was when it was developed, but fentanyl is
widely used for pain relief in transdermal patches. You can quite
easily absorb enough narcotic to light you right up from a patch smaller
than a postage stamp applied to your skin. Put a few on and you might
absorb a lethal dose.

It is useful, but I have to wonder if humanity would not have been
better off just liberalizing the use of heroin, which works much the
same way but is easier to titrate.


And of late police dogs die sniffing it and officers with
trace contact have passed out.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #45  
Old August 4th 19, 02:45 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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On 8/3/2019 8:42 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 20:14:16 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 8/3/2019 6:53 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 12:19:50 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 8/3/2019 11:55 AM, jbeattie wrote:
... even a sensible Democrat is clearly superior to the insane asylum the Left has conjured up out of the fraudulent "oppression" of tiny minorities, who together cannot account for rolling a single log...

Agreed. And I think lots of people agree.

Murder is definitional -- and if it is licensed, it is not murder. Whether one can murder a fetus in the US varies from state to state. The religious and historical prohibition on murder was to maintain social peace and order. The Fifth Commandment did not apply to a fetus, at least not absolutely and not according to the Jews -- whose God god wrote the rule (although the original was lost for many years until found by Stephen Spielberg.) Regrettably, Catholics and conservative Christians have pushed for prohibition as an article of faith and without regard to what becomes of the fetus once born, and in fact Christian conservatives bemoan the "welfare state."

I disagree with that final sentence. At least around here, there are
many church-based institutions that care for women and children, and
there are ongoing congregational charity drives for them. We contribute.

I'm not "into" women's rights but can the death of a fetus that would
not survive if removed from the mother logically be termed "murder"?


And conversely, babies born after 24 weeks are now regularly saved. But
others are aborted after 24 weeks. Granted, it's not common - but what
should it be called?


I don't know and my thoughts were aimed at early abortion before the
fetus is capable of survival outside the mother. And those who cry
that any abortion is murder.

What should it be called? I don't know and frankly I don't care as my
attitude is that I will do as good as I can do and what you do is up
to you. The uniquely Christian concept that one should run about and
force their neighbors to conform to "their" belief is totally foreign
to me.


Wow. I'm amazed you can call that "uniquely Christian." You must have no
knowledge at all about muslims, atheists, various pagans, etc.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #46  
Old August 4th 19, 02:52 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 7,694
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On 8/3/2019 8:58 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 5:14:19 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/3/2019 6:53 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 12:19:50 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 8/3/2019 11:55 AM, jbeattie wrote:
... even a sensible Democrat is clearly superior to the insane asylum the Left has conjured up out of the fraudulent "oppression" of tiny minorities, who together cannot account for rolling a single log...

Agreed. And I think lots of people agree.

Murder is definitional -- and if it is licensed, it is not murder. Whether one can murder a fetus in the US varies from state to state. The religious and historical prohibition on murder was to maintain social peace and order. The Fifth Commandment did not apply to a fetus, at least not absolutely and not according to the Jews -- whose God god wrote the rule (although the original was lost for many years until found by Stephen Spielberg.) Regrettably, Catholics and conservative Christians have pushed for prohibition as an article of faith and without regard to what becomes of the fetus once born, and in fact Christian conservatives bemoan the "welfare state."

I disagree with that final sentence. At least around here, there are
many church-based institutions that care for women and children, and
there are ongoing congregational charity drives for them. We contribute.

I'm not "into" women's rights but can the death of a fetus that would
not survive if removed from the mother logically be termed "murder"?


And conversely, babies born after 24 weeks are now regularly saved. But
others are aborted after 24 weeks. Granted, it's not common - but what
should it be called?


Abortion. The termination of a pregnancy before a child is born is, by definition, an abortion. Legislatures have decided at what point in gestation an abortion amounts

to a homicide...

A fine legal definition. I was responding to John's point, that if the
child can't survive outside the womb it can't be called murder. It
seemed natural to ask what if it _could_ survive outside the womb.

And I suppose lots of philosophical debates could be simplistically shut
down if the rule is "just refer to a dictionary or a law book."

Yet the questions remain. That argument technique didn't work out for
those in favor of slavery, those against gay marriage, etc.

BTW, you're right about the Catholic charities.


Thanks.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #47  
Old August 4th 19, 02:55 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 10,776
Default Off Topic

On 8/3/2019 8:45 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/3/2019 8:42 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 20:14:16 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 8/3/2019 6:53 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 12:19:50 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 8/3/2019 11:55 AM, jbeattie wrote:
... even a sensible Democrat is clearly superior to
the insane asylum the Left has conjured up out of the
fraudulent "oppression" of tiny minorities, who
together cannot account for rolling a single log...

Agreed. And I think lots of people agree.

Murder is definitional -- and if it is licensed, it
is not murder. Whether one can murder a fetus in the
US varies from state to state. The religious and
historical prohibition on murder was to maintain
social peace and order. The Fifth Commandment did not
apply to a fetus, at least not absolutely and not
according to the Jews -- whose God god wrote the rule
(although the original was lost for many years until
found by Stephen Spielberg.) Regrettably, Catholics
and conservative Christians have pushed for
prohibition as an article of faith and without regard
to what becomes of the fetus once born, and in fact
Christian conservatives bemoan the "welfare state."

I disagree with that final sentence. At least around
here, there are
many church-based institutions that care for women and
children, and
there are ongoing congregational charity drives for
them. We contribute.

I'm not "into" women's rights but can the death of a
fetus that would
not survive if removed from the mother logically be
termed "murder"?

And conversely, babies born after 24 weeks are now
regularly saved. But
others are aborted after 24 weeks. Granted, it's not
common - but what
should it be called?


I don't know and my thoughts were aimed at early abortion
before the
fetus is capable of survival outside the mother. And those
who cry
that any abortion is murder.

What should it be called? I don't know and frankly I don't
care as my
attitude is that I will do as good as I can do and what
you do is up
to you. The uniquely Christian concept that one should run
about and
force their neighbors to conform to "their" belief is
totally foreign
to me.


Wow. I'm amazed you can call that "uniquely Christian." You
must have no knowledge at all about muslims, atheists,
various pagans, etc.



Not to mention the classic Hippocratic oath until very recently.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #48  
Old August 4th 19, 03:43 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 9,323
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On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 4:55:32 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 4:10:02 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:

Licensed murder on the scale it is committed every year in America isn't a partisan matter for anyone who has a conscience.


Murder is definitional -- and if it is licensed, it is not murder.


That's a not particularly bright sophism which has the subtext, Man is just another animal, so it is all right to kill human babies in the womb for veal. Try a Baby Schnitzel made with Emmenthaler and Parma ham. Enjoy!

Anyone with principles knows killing people is wrong. Foetuses are people by any definition.

Whether one can murder a fetus in the US varies from state to state. The religious and historical prohibition on murder was to maintain social peace and order. The Fifth Commandment did not apply to a fetus, at least not absolutely and not according to the Jews -- whose God god wrote the rule (although the original was lost for many years until found by Stephen Spielberg.) Regrettably, Catholics and conservative Christians have pushed for prohibition as an article of faith and without regard to what becomes of the fetus once born, and in fact Christian conservatives bemoan the "welfare state."


Does it hurt to blow clear Perspex through your ass when you hoped to blow obscuring smoke?

Well, you can't have it both ways.


It's not me trying to have it both ways, it's the Democrat Party, the feminists, NARAL, the abortionist themselves, and the other eugenicists, all of them aborting overwhelmingly black babies. The whole affair is the racist culmination of Margaret Sanger's eugenic nightmare of killing the underclasses like vermin, a fine case of the hypocrisy of the Left in trying to have their murderous cake and eat it too or, in your phrase, having it both ways..

And that counts double for those elements of the Left who have campaigned for both abortion and the abolition of the death penalty for criminals.

Personally, I think that anyone who stays in the Democrat Party, or contributes money to it since several years ago, ar passes the litmus test for membership of unquestioning support for abortion right up to and after birth, is by definition a murderer. But that's just me, and many tens of millions of other people with their brains in gear, and their principles held clearly.

If you want to prohibit abortion, you better have a plan for that child once born.


How about welfare arrangements that don't destroy families, as The Great Society has broken up two generations of black families.

Perhaps we can send them all to Ireland. How's space looking at your place?


You're murdering American babies to make space for uninvited invaders? And you want the Irish to help out by taking some of your people so you can take in more uninvited invaders?

All these abortions have made the defenders of abortion quite irrational, and that's putting it mildly. I think you're all certifiable.

The US has plenty of space, and jobs too, for its own children. Just stop the nonsense of an open border and decriminalising illegal entry.

-- Jay Beattie.


And stop hating Americans just because they will be born Americans; that's exactly ground zero for anti-semitism, with American foetuses substituted for Jews. Even Stalin, outside wartime, never killed as many of his own people as the Americans do every year by abortion.

Some people deserve to die. They include abortionists and abortion fanatics, among several classes of violent criminals. They do not include babies in the womb or out of it.

Joseph Goebbels would be proud of the flack job the Democrat Party has done in normalising a vicious, continuing mass murder.

Andre Jute
Let's celebrate diverse--- er, near-homogeneity in abortions!
  #49  
Old August 4th 19, 04:30 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 4,240
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On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 7:43:12 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 4:55:32 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 4:10:02 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:

Licensed murder on the scale it is committed every year in America isn't a partisan matter for anyone who has a conscience.


Murder is definitional -- and if it is licensed, it is not murder.


That's a not particularly bright sophism which has the subtext, Man is just another animal, so it is all right to kill human babies in the womb for veal. Try a Baby Schnitzel made with Emmenthaler and Parma ham. Enjoy!

Anyone with principles knows killing people is wrong. Foetuses are people by any definition.


Really? As a nation, we kill people all the time. A fetus is not a person by many definitions.


Whether one can murder a fetus in the US varies from state to state. The religious and historical prohibition on murder was to maintain social peace and order. The Fifth Commandment did not apply to a fetus, at least not absolutely and not according to the Jews -- whose God god wrote the rule (although the original was lost for many years until found by Stephen Spielberg.) Regrettably, Catholics and conservative Christians have pushed for prohibition as an article of faith and without regard to what becomes of the fetus once born, and in fact Christian conservatives bemoan the "welfare state."


Does it hurt to blow clear Perspex through your ass when you hoped to blow obscuring smoke?


Well, you can't have it both ways.


It's not me trying to have it both ways, it's the Democrat Party, the feminists, NARAL, the abortionist themselves, and the other eugenicists, all of them aborting overwhelmingly black babies. The whole affair is the racist culmination of Margaret Sanger's eugenic nightmare of killing the underclasses like vermin, a fine case of the hypocrisy of the Left in trying to have their murderous cake and eat it too or, in your phrase, having it both ways.

And that counts double for those elements of the Left who have campaigned for both abortion and the abolition of the death penalty for criminals.

Personally, I think that anyone who stays in the Democrat Party, or contributes money to it since several years ago, ar passes the litmus test for membership of unquestioning support for abortion right up to and after birth, is by definition a murderer. But that's just me, and many tens of millions of other people with their brains in gear, and their principles held clearly.

If you want to prohibit abortion, you better have a plan for that child once born.


How about welfare arrangements that don't destroy families, as The Great Society has broken up two generations of black families.

Perhaps we can send them all to Ireland. How's space looking at your place?


You're murdering American babies to make space for uninvited invaders? And you want the Irish to help out by taking some of your people so you can take in more uninvited invaders?

All these abortions have made the defenders of abortion quite irrational, and that's putting it mildly. I think you're all certifiable.

The US has plenty of space, and jobs too, for its own children. Just stop the nonsense of an open border and decriminalising illegal entry.

-- Jay Beattie.


And stop hating Americans just because they will be born Americans; that's exactly ground zero for anti-semitism, with American foetuses substituted for Jews. Even Stalin, outside wartime, never killed as many of his own people as the Americans do every year by abortion.

Some people deserve to die. They include abortionists and abortion fanatics, among several classes of violent criminals. They do not include babies in the womb or out of it.


Wow, now you're condoning murder of abortion providers? Even therapeutic abortion to save the mother? Incest? Abortion of non-viable fetuses? Will there be criminal prosecution of women who induce an abortion by over-exercise or misoprostol? Go get 'em Ayatollah Andre! Between writing dime novels, you can exact retribution for all the unborn babies.

-- Jay Beattie.






  #50  
Old August 4th 19, 05:29 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
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Posts: 975
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On Sat, 03 Aug 2019 20:59:18 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

Tom Kunich writes:

On Thursday, August 1, 2019 at 6:03:16 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, August 1, 2019 at 5:29:18 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
I know this is off topic but I don't find the answer anywhere else.

Today's news has Pres. Trump accusing the Chinese of continuing to
sell fentanyl to the United States -- "and many Americans continue to
die!"

But my research shows that fentanyl is a medical drug for the
alleviation of severe pain and as such I would assume to be a
controlled substance. How than, "many Americans continue to die!" ?

See
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/01/w...nyl-trump.html
Fentanyl and all its variants are now controlled substances in China
which, of course, does not stop illegal trade.

-- Jay Beattie.


Jay, Fentanyl was developed to be used as an injectable painkiller
when all else fails. The people in the final stages of cancer and the
like do not respond much to most of the pain killers on the market
including the strongest forms of Morphine.


I'm not sure what the idea was when it was developed, but fentanyl is
widely used for pain relief in transdermal patches. You can quite
easily absorb enough narcotic to light you right up from a patch smaller
than a postage stamp applied to your skin. Put a few on and you might
absorb a lethal dose.

It is useful, but I have to wonder if humanity would not have been
better off just liberalizing the use of heroin, which works much the
same way but is easier to titrate.


From what I read you are correct in the sense of, one might say, the
legal use of fentanyl, but the current U.S. claim seems to be that
illegal users of fentanyl are simply ordering it from (mainly) Chinese
Web Sites and getting it delivered to their door.

Again from my reading, something like 20,000 individuals are dying
from the illegal procurement and use of fentanyl and the U.S. wants
China to do something about it.

But you are correct, simply legalize the use of drugs and the price
goes down and illegal procurement immediately becomes a mote subject.

As an example, currently the "wholesale" price of methamphetamine
tablets on the Thai/Myanmar border is roughly 1/3- 1/2 the "wholesale"
price in Bangkok and in consequence the police daily capture pickup
truck loads of what the Thai's call "Ya Ba" (crazy medicine) on the
way to the big city. Multi million tablet intercepts are common these
days. The price varies but an "average" price is probably in the TB
200 - 300 per tab, about $6.60 -$10.00.

If Ya Ba was legalized tomorrow the retail price might become as low
as 30 baht ($1.00) each.
--
cheers,

John B.

 




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