Cantilever Vs V-brakes.

On Saturday, September 24, 2016 at 11:43:38 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 18:00:11 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On

One comparison I found online suggests that cantilevers don't wear out
blocks so fast - but don't necessarily stop where you want to.

R. J. Mitchell who designed the Spitfire fighter plane was famously
quoted; "if it looks right - it'll probably fly" - IMO: cantilevers
don't look right.

Looking "right" depends very much on the knowledge base of the person
doing the looking.

Actually the criteria has always been " the eye of the beholder", has
it not? :-)

In the view of some beholders, "eye of the beholder" is the ultimate
criterion. But there are others who think actual, measurable performance is
more important.

- Frank Krygowski

On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 18:00:11 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On

One comparison I found online suggests that cantilevers don't wear out
blocks so fast - but don't necessarily stop where you want to.

R. J. Mitchell who designed the Spitfire fighter plane was famously
quoted; "if it looks right - it'll probably fly" - IMO: cantilevers
don't look right.

Looking "right" depends very much on the knowledge base of the person
doing the looking.

One can only speculate whether the fellow has actually used cantilever
brakes. I can only comment that the canti brakes I have used, while a
bit "fiddly" to adjust were certainly as powerful as any other brake
I've used.

As for looks, as they say, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 20:52:28 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Saturday, September 24, 2016 at 11:43:38 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 18:00:11 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On

One comparison I found online suggests that cantilevers don't wear out
blocks so fast - but don't necessarily stop where you want to.

R. J. Mitchell who designed the Spitfire fighter plane was famously
quoted; "if it looks right - it'll probably fly" - IMO: cantilevers
don't look right.

Looking "right" depends very much on the knowledge base of the person
doing the looking.

Actually the criteria has always been " the eye of the beholder", has
it not? :-)

In the view of some beholders, "eye of the beholder" is the ultimate
criterion. But there are others who think actual, measurable performance is
more important.

- Frank Krygowski

Over the years I've used most of the various brakes, with the
exception of disk, that have been attached to bicycles and while some
of them required a bit of forethought when using them I can't say that
any of them were "unsatisfactory" in that I never hit anything nor
failed to stop about where I wanted to.

But having said that I think that if I were riding a loaded tandem
down steep hills I'd want canti brakes with very long arms.

One exception. I saw in alibaba some vee brakes with extra long arms,
but at a price of US$71.00 and I'm not what the cable pill would be.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Sunday, September 25, 2016 at 12:30:12 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 20:52:28 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Saturday, September 24, 2016 at 11:43:38 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 18:00:11 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On

One comparison I found online suggests that cantilevers don't wear out
blocks so fast - but don't necessarily stop where you want to.

R. J. Mitchell who designed the Spitfire fighter plane was famously
quoted; "if it looks right - it'll probably fly" - IMO: cantilevers
don't look right.

Looking "right" depends very much on the knowledge base of the person
doing the looking.

Actually the criteria has always been " the eye of the beholder", has
it not? :-)

In the view of some beholders, "eye of the beholder" is the ultimate
criterion. But there are others who think actual, measurable performance is
more important.

- Frank Krygowski

Over the years I've used most of the various brakes, with the
exception of disk, that have been attached to bicycles and while some
of them required a bit of forethought when using them I can't say that
any of them were "unsatisfactory" in that I never hit anything nor
failed to stop about where I wanted to.

But having said that I think that if I were riding a loaded tandem
down steep hills I'd want canti brakes with very long arms.

I'd want a drum brake and/or a disc for a really long descent on a tandem. Any rim brake can heat a tandem rim to the point of blowing off the tire.

I was unable to stop a touring bike and trail-along bike with my son on it using a set of cantis with STI levers in the rain -- which was probably a pad and brake related problem. I never got good stopping from STI levers and cantis, although some models worked better than others, and you could get O.K. stopping with careful set-up. I got rid of my last canti bike years ago. Now that the UCI has approved discs for CX bikes, cantis are fading into history -- at least among my cohort.

-- Jay Beattie.



--

"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message
...
On

One comparison I found online suggests that cantilevers don't wear out
blocks so fast - but don't necessarily stop where you want to.

R. J. Mitchell who designed the Spitfire fighter plane was famously
quoted; "if it looks right - it'll probably fly" - IMO: cantilevers
don't look right.

Looking "right" depends very much on the knowledge base of the person
doing the looking.

What part of "IMO:" did you not understand?

Its not just my opinion - the web seems to have more on converting from
cantilever to V than the other way round.

Some of the online descriptions suggest cantilever are good if you want the
blocks to last a long time - but not so much if you're bothered where you
stop.

You could say that not liking how they look is the cherry on the top.

"jbeattie" wrote in message
...
On Sunday, September 25, 2016 at 12:30:12 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 20:52:28 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Saturday, September 24, 2016 at 11:43:38 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 18:00:11 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On

One comparison I found online suggests that cantilevers don't wear
out
blocks so fast - but don't necessarily stop where you want to.

R. J. Mitchell who designed the Spitfire fighter plane was famously
quoted; "if it looks right - it'll probably fly" - IMO: cantilevers
don't look right.

Looking "right" depends very much on the knowledge base of the person
doing the looking.

Actually the criteria has always been " the eye of the beholder", has
it not? :-)

In the view of some beholders, "eye of the beholder" is the ultimate
criterion. But there are others who think actual, measurable
performance is
more important.

- Frank Krygowski

Over the years I've used most of the various brakes, with the
exception of disk, that have been attached to bicycles and while some
of them required a bit of forethought when using them I can't say that
any of them were "unsatisfactory" in that I never hit anything nor
failed to stop about where I wanted to.

But having said that I think that if I were riding a loaded tandem
down steep hills I'd want canti brakes with very long arms.

I'd want a drum brake and/or a disc for a really long descent on a tandem.
Any rim brake can heat a tandem rim to the point of blowing off the tire.

A disc has the least surface area to dissipate heat, but most of the
components can take it - unless the bonding between the pad and backplate
lets go.

Hydraulic discs add yet another risk factor - the seals on a few types won't
tolerate DOT4 fluid, and DOT5 doesn't handle high temperature quite so well.

Shouldn't be that much of a problem unless you're using a tandem as a HGV
though.

On Sunday, September 25, 2016 at 11:43:43 AM UTC-7, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:
"jbeattie" wrote in message
...
On Sunday, September 25, 2016 at 12:30:12 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 20:52:28 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Saturday, September 24, 2016 at 11:43:38 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 18:00:11 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On

One comparison I found online suggests that cantilevers don't wear
out
blocks so fast - but don't necessarily stop where you want to.

R. J. Mitchell who designed the Spitfire fighter plane was famously
quoted; "if it looks right - it'll probably fly" - IMO: cantilevers
don't look right.

Looking "right" depends very much on the knowledge base of the person
doing the looking.

Actually the criteria has always been " the eye of the beholder", has
it not? :-)

In the view of some beholders, "eye of the beholder" is the ultimate
criterion. But there are others who think actual, measurable
performance is
more important.

- Frank Krygowski

Over the years I've used most of the various brakes, with the
exception of disk, that have been attached to bicycles and while some
of them required a bit of forethought when using them I can't say that
any of them were "unsatisfactory" in that I never hit anything nor
failed to stop about where I wanted to.

But having said that I think that if I were riding a loaded tandem
down steep hills I'd want canti brakes with very long arms.

I'd want a drum brake and/or a disc for a really long descent on a tandem.
Any rim brake can heat a tandem rim to the point of blowing off the tire.

A disc has the least surface area to dissipate heat, but most of the
components can take it - unless the bonding between the pad and backplate
lets go.

Hydraulic discs add yet another risk factor - the seals on a few types won't
tolerate DOT4 fluid, and DOT5 doesn't handle high temperature quite so well.

Shouldn't be that much of a problem unless you're using a tandem as a HGV
though.

Santana uses a front v-brake and a rear disc with a giant rotor. I blew out a tire on a steep descent on my tandem using two cantilevers (Scott SE). I wanted to get a drum brake but never got around to it. I sold the tandem a few years ago.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Sunday, September 25, 2016 at 2:34:45 PM UTC-4, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:
"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message
...
On

One comparison I found online suggests that cantilevers don't wear out
blocks so fast - but don't necessarily stop where you want to.

R. J. Mitchell who designed the Spitfire fighter plane was famously
quoted; "if it looks right - it'll probably fly" - IMO: cantilevers
don't look right.

Looking "right" depends very much on the knowledge base of the person
doing the looking.

What part of "IMO:" did you not understand?

Its not just my opinion - the web seems to have more on converting from
cantilever to V than the other way round.

Some of the online descriptions suggest cantilever are good if you want the
blocks to last a long time - but not so much if you're bothered where you
stop.

You could say that not liking how they look is the cherry on the top.

A LOT of people like V-brakes over cantilever brakes because they find the V-brake a lot easier to install and adjust and they find the V-brake gives better braking performance. Another plus for V-btake calipers for some people is that they don't stick out as much as the arms of most cantilevers do.. Other's prefer the more finicky cantilever brakes because those people have the experience/kow how to setup and adjust cantilevers for best performance for those people.

If it were not for the expense of changing out my Campy Ergos on a couple of my bikes I'd forgo to cantis for V-brakes on them too.

Cheers

On 9/25/2016 10:12 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 25, 2016 at 12:30:12 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:


Over the years I've used most of the various brakes, with the
exception of disk, that have been attached to bicycles and while some
of them required a bit of forethought when using them I can't say that
any of them were "unsatisfactory" in that I never hit anything nor
failed to stop about where I wanted to.

But having said that I think that if I were riding a loaded tandem
down steep hills I'd want canti brakes with very long arms.

I'd want a drum brake and/or a disc for a really long descent on a tandem. Any rim brake can heat a tandem rim to the point of blowing off the tire.

I agree, stopping a tandem or a trail-along combo on a long descent is a
different kettle of fish. Energy absorption and temperature rise is
very modest for most bike braking, but 300 pounds and hundreds of feet
of descent puts lots of energy into the brake surfaces.

OTOH, I once met a guy who toured the Alps by tandem with his wife, and
had only cantilever brakes. He was adamant that cantilevers were all
you needed. Personally, I still wouldn't try that.

I was unable to stop a touring bike and trail-along bike with my son on it using a set of cantis with STI levers in the rain -- which was probably a pad and brake related problem.

Apparently some pads and rims are worse than others in the rain. You
(and most people in Portland) have far more rain experience than I ever
want to have.

The problem is that the coefficient of friction of the brake blocks
varies so much wet vs. dry. IIRC, David Gordon Wilson searched long and
hard for brake material with less wet-dry variation. The materials that
did best by that metric had much lower coefficients overall, and needed
very high mechanical advantages to work.

But I keep thinking that these are problems that only a small percentage
of bicyclists have. I've seen more people crash from too much braking
than from too little.

I never got good stopping from STI levers and cantis, although some models worked better than others, and you could get O.K. stopping with careful set-up. I got rid of my last canti bike years ago. Now that the UCI has approved discs for CX bikes, cantis are fading into history -- at least among my cohort.

I don't use STI, so my cantis work very well.

But thinking about the "evolution" of bike fashions, I think the things
that are fading into history at any given time has as much to do with
fashion as with utility.

One friend of mine recently announced that she plans to get only one
more bike before she dies, a disc brake bike. Why? Because they stop
better in the rain. Now, she may ride in the rain sometimes, but it
must be rare. I don't remember ever seeing it or hearing about it.

Ah well, a person can buy whatever they like for whatever reason.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 9/25/2016 2:35 PM, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:

"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message
...
On

One comparison I found online suggests that cantilevers don't wear out
blocks so fast - but don't necessarily stop where you want to.

R. J. Mitchell who designed the Spitfire fighter plane was famously
quoted; "if it looks right - it'll probably fly" - IMO: cantilevers
don't look right.

Looking "right" depends very much on the knowledge base of the person
doing the looking.

What part of "IMO:" did you not understand?

Oh, I understand it. I'm just saying that "looking right" has its
limits. This bike
https://www.ridersmate.com/wp-conten...ird-bike-4.jpg
must look right to _somebody_.


--
- Frank Krygowski