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#21
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Small Wheels (was: Taiwanese recumbents)
Zach Kaplan Cycles wrote: Tom Sherman wrote in message ... Randy Schulman wrote: ... The other two are versions of what I call "The Hurricane" (liked the sea-weather theme) ; One is an above-steering version of their PB960 with two major upgrades: A 20" front wheel instead of their 16" wheel; I think tiny wheels are deadly.... You have just alienated the entire ownership of ISO 305-mm/ISO 406-mm wheel lowracers owners. Tom Sherman - Quad Cities Red Sunset and Blue Dragonflyer I own a couple 305/406 wheeled low racers and don't feel alienated by that statement. However just because one owns a Sunset doesn't mean it is their prefered ride. My Sunset is collecting dust and I consider it obsolete because my Bacchetta Aero with its dual 559 wheels is faster on level ground, faster up hill, faster down hill, smoother riding, better handling at high speeds, safer in traffic, lower rolling resistance, lighter, has a more efficient drivetrain and is better looking (all IMHO of course). As far as the wheel diameters go I'm really becoming a believer in bigger is better. The small wheeled compact lowracers like the Sunset only seem to have an advantage if the rider is short or is trying to transport it inside a small hatchback or a suitcase on an airplane. My Sunset does also have an edge over my Aero for practical transportation in terms of having a high capacity rear rack, mudguards, fat tyre clearances and disc brakes. However for practical transportation in the conditions where I'd need mudguards I prefer the added safety and stability of a trike and for transportation in dense urban areas I prefer the practicality and higher ride height of my HP Velotechnik Street Machine GT which has a 406mm front wheel, 559mm rear wheel and full suspension. The Sunset is still a very high quality bike with many nice features and was ahead of its time but I just don't see myself riding it much anymore. Zach, The comment about alienating small wheel lowracer owners was tongue in cheek - our numbers are so small as to be of little concern to the importer of bikes from what is presumably a high-volume factory. Did you decide to use ISO 559-mm wheels on your Aero for tire availability reasons, and do the brakes have enough adjustment to properly compensate for the 6 mm difference in wheel radius? Looks are subjective as I find the Aero a merely acceptable looking bike except for the "tweener" handlebars, which I would replace with narrow T-bars for aesthetic reasons if I bought one. I have also observed many women reacting to the Sunset in a manner similar to the way they would to a cute puppy or kitten which I do not see happening with an Aero. I do transport my Sunset inside a small hatchback on a regular basis and not having to do any assembly/disassembly is a positive attribute, as I find assembling and disassembling bikes on a regular basis to be a major PITA. Small wheels have a psychological advantage as most upright riders as consternated to find a bike with "kiddie wheels" going faster than they are. Finally, a lowracer will be more responsive than a highracer due to the shorter vertical moment arm between the tire contact patches and the center of gravity of the combined bike/rider. Whether or not this is an advantage will depend entirely on rider preference. Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side) |
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#22
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Taiwanese recumbents
Tom Sherman wrote:
Does anyone have the number of Pharobike Lowfats and ISO 305-mm front wheel Ross Festine were made? Were there *any* 305-front Festinae? I'd be somewhat surprised coz 305 is a rare size over here and good tyres in it are very hard to find. Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/ ================================================== ========= Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter http://www.bhpc.org.uk/ ================================================== ========= |
#23
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Taiwanese recumbents
Tom Sherman wrote:
Does anyone have the number of Pharobike Lowfats and ISO 305-mm front wheel Ross Festine were made? Were there *any* 305-front Festinae? I'd be somewhat surprised coz 305 is a rare size over here and good tyres in it are very hard to find. Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/ ================================================== ========= Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter http://www.bhpc.org.uk/ ================================================== ========= |
#24
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Taiwanese recumbents
Dave Larrington wrote:
Tom Sherman wrote: Does anyone have the number of Pharobike Lowfats and ISO 305-mm front wheel Ross Festine were made? Were there *any* 305-front Festinae? I'd be somewhat surprised coz 305 is a rare size over here and good tyres in it are very hard to find. Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/ ================================================== ========= Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter http://www.bhpc.org.uk/ ================================================== ========= I rode at least one of them, and vaguely recall seeing another being packaged for a customer. IIRC, it was just the last few that had 305's. Nobody said they they had good tyres :-) Cheers John --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.495 / Virus Database: 294 - Release Date: 30/06/03 |
#25
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Taiwanese recumbents
Dave Larrington wrote:
Tom Sherman wrote: Does anyone have the number of Pharobike Lowfats and ISO 305-mm front wheel Ross Festine were made? Were there *any* 305-front Festinae? I'd be somewhat surprised coz 305 is a rare size over here and good tyres in it are very hard to find. Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/ ================================================== ========= Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter http://www.bhpc.org.uk/ ================================================== ========= I rode at least one of them, and vaguely recall seeing another being packaged for a customer. IIRC, it was just the last few that had 305's. Nobody said they they had good tyres :-) Cheers John --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.495 / Virus Database: 294 - Release Date: 30/06/03 |
#26
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Small Wheels (was: Taiwanese recumbents)
Tom Sherman wrote in message ...
Zach Kaplan Cycles wrote: Tom Sherman wrote in message ... Randy Schulman wrote: ... The other two are versions of what I call "The Hurricane" (liked the sea-weather theme) ; One is an above-steering version of their PB960 with two major upgrades: A 20" front wheel instead of their 16" wheel; I think tiny wheels are deadly.... You have just alienated the entire ownership of ISO 305-mm/ISO 406-mm wheel lowracers owners. Tom Sherman - Quad Cities Red Sunset and Blue Dragonflyer I own a couple 305/406 wheeled low racers and don't feel alienated by that statement. However just because one owns a Sunset doesn't mean it is their prefered ride. My Sunset is collecting dust and I consider it obsolete because my Bacchetta Aero with its dual 559 wheels is faster on level ground, faster up hill, faster down hill, smoother riding, better handling at high speeds, safer in traffic, lower rolling resistance, lighter, has a more efficient drivetrain and is better looking (all IMHO of course). As far as the wheel diameters go I'm really becoming a believer in bigger is better. The small wheeled compact lowracers like the Sunset only seem to have an advantage if the rider is short or is trying to transport it inside a small hatchback or a suitcase on an airplane. My Sunset does also have an edge over my Aero for practical transportation in terms of having a high capacity rear rack, mudguards, fat tyre clearances and disc brakes. However for practical transportation in the conditions where I'd need mudguards I prefer the added safety and stability of a trike and for transportation in dense urban areas I prefer the practicality and higher ride height of my HP Velotechnik Street Machine GT which has a 406mm front wheel, 559mm rear wheel and full suspension. The Sunset is still a very high quality bike with many nice features and was ahead of its time but I just don't see myself riding it much anymore. Zach, The comment about alienating small wheel lowracer owners was tongue in cheek - our numbers are so small as to be of little concern to the importer of bikes from what is presumably a high-volume factory. Did you decide to use ISO 559-mm wheels on your Aero for tire availability reasons, and do the brakes have enough adjustment to properly compensate for the 6 mm difference in wheel radius? Yes and yes. Also I can runn wider tyres with 559mm wheels. For instance the 25-559 Schwalbe Stelvios I'm using have an actual width of 27mm on the HED Jet wheels I'm using. That is a wider actual width than any 571mm tyre, even the Terry Tellus ST that is labeled 28-571. Looks are subjective as I find the Aero a merely acceptable looking bike Correct, that is why I wrote "all IMHO of course" above. except for the "tweener" handlebars, which I would replace with narrow T-bars for aesthetic reasons if I bought one. I have also observed many women reacting to the Sunset in a manner similar to the way they would to a cute puppy or kitten which I do not see happening with an Aero. I actually installed Bacchetta handlebars and stem on my Sunset in January 2003 because I find them more comfortable, more aerodynamic, they allow leaning forward when climbing or hitting large bumps, make it easier to get on and off the bike and don't have any tiller effect. I think the looks of my Sunset improved with the Bacchetta bars and stem though I still think my Sunset looks awkward. I don't ride recumbents to get attention from women but for what it is worth the Aero has generated much more attention and positive feedback on the club rides I've taken it on than the Sunset. I've had numerous women (and men) approach me about the Aero and complement me on it. It seems upon seeing it for the first time women like to touch the filter foam on the M5 seat. I've seen this happen numerous times, sort of like petting the cute puppy. Also being more up at their height now and able to climb at their speed I find I'm talking with road bike riding club members much more now. There was one woman who hardly ever talked to me or acknowledged me in the past and I recall she would always outclimb me on steep climbs when I rode the Sunset. After her initial round of complements about the Aero I've now ridden and talked with her at length on many rides and I have to back off on the climbs so I don't leave her behind. I do transport my Sunset inside a small hatchback on a regular basis and not having to do any assembly/disassembly is a positive attribute, as I find assembling and disassembling bikes on a regular basis to be a major PITA. As I pointed out above that is an advantage of a compact lowracer such as the Sunset over a large wheeled SWB such as the Aero. However if someone wanted to carry the bike on a roof rack (I wouldn't put any expensive bike on one for any significant distance) the Aero does have the advantage of a conventional double blade fork that interfaces with conventional roof racks. Small wheels have a psychological advantage as most upright riders as consternated to find a bike with "kiddie wheels" going faster than they are. True but I find it much more harmonious to blend in with the roadies more and be accepted more as one of them on a larger wheeled bike climbing at their speeds. I used to bring a lot of esoteric machinery on club rides such as trikes (often with Rohloff hubs), Sunsets and Festinas. There was always a sense of novelty with the small wheels and people didn't expect them to be as fast as they were, especially the small wheels fitted with fat tyres. However I was always on the fringe and often left behind on the climbs and there are a lot of long, steep climbs in my area. With the Aero I interface with the upright club riders in a much more harmonious way yet am still considered to be unique due to the different position I'm riding in. Many people have expressed to me that they much prefer riding with me when I'm on the Aero than a low racer as I'm easier to talk to being closer to their height, can give them somewhat of a draft and am easier for them to see. I have pulled some pacelines on the Aero and have received appreciation for that. This wouldn't have ever been able to happen on the Sunset unless they were all riding low recumbents too. Finally, a lowracer will be more responsive than a highracer due to the shorter vertical moment arm between the tire contact patches and the center of gravity of the combined bike/rider. Whether or not this is an advantage will depend entirely on rider preference. I actually don't notice much difference in that respect though I know in theory you are correct. For me both bikes are adequately responsive and adequately stable though I do find the Aero has the edge with high speed stability, particularly on the rough roads we have around here. I'd rather hit a bump at 70 km/h with the 559mm front wheel of the Aero than with the 305mm front wheel of the Sunset. Zach Kaplan |
#27
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Small Wheels (was: Taiwanese recumbents)
Tom Sherman wrote in message ...
Zach Kaplan Cycles wrote: Tom Sherman wrote in message ... Randy Schulman wrote: ... The other two are versions of what I call "The Hurricane" (liked the sea-weather theme) ; One is an above-steering version of their PB960 with two major upgrades: A 20" front wheel instead of their 16" wheel; I think tiny wheels are deadly.... You have just alienated the entire ownership of ISO 305-mm/ISO 406-mm wheel lowracers owners. Tom Sherman - Quad Cities Red Sunset and Blue Dragonflyer I own a couple 305/406 wheeled low racers and don't feel alienated by that statement. However just because one owns a Sunset doesn't mean it is their prefered ride. My Sunset is collecting dust and I consider it obsolete because my Bacchetta Aero with its dual 559 wheels is faster on level ground, faster up hill, faster down hill, smoother riding, better handling at high speeds, safer in traffic, lower rolling resistance, lighter, has a more efficient drivetrain and is better looking (all IMHO of course). As far as the wheel diameters go I'm really becoming a believer in bigger is better. The small wheeled compact lowracers like the Sunset only seem to have an advantage if the rider is short or is trying to transport it inside a small hatchback or a suitcase on an airplane. My Sunset does also have an edge over my Aero for practical transportation in terms of having a high capacity rear rack, mudguards, fat tyre clearances and disc brakes. However for practical transportation in the conditions where I'd need mudguards I prefer the added safety and stability of a trike and for transportation in dense urban areas I prefer the practicality and higher ride height of my HP Velotechnik Street Machine GT which has a 406mm front wheel, 559mm rear wheel and full suspension. The Sunset is still a very high quality bike with many nice features and was ahead of its time but I just don't see myself riding it much anymore. Zach, The comment about alienating small wheel lowracer owners was tongue in cheek - our numbers are so small as to be of little concern to the importer of bikes from what is presumably a high-volume factory. Did you decide to use ISO 559-mm wheels on your Aero for tire availability reasons, and do the brakes have enough adjustment to properly compensate for the 6 mm difference in wheel radius? Yes and yes. Also I can runn wider tyres with 559mm wheels. For instance the 25-559 Schwalbe Stelvios I'm using have an actual width of 27mm on the HED Jet wheels I'm using. That is a wider actual width than any 571mm tyre, even the Terry Tellus ST that is labeled 28-571. Looks are subjective as I find the Aero a merely acceptable looking bike Correct, that is why I wrote "all IMHO of course" above. except for the "tweener" handlebars, which I would replace with narrow T-bars for aesthetic reasons if I bought one. I have also observed many women reacting to the Sunset in a manner similar to the way they would to a cute puppy or kitten which I do not see happening with an Aero. I actually installed Bacchetta handlebars and stem on my Sunset in January 2003 because I find them more comfortable, more aerodynamic, they allow leaning forward when climbing or hitting large bumps, make it easier to get on and off the bike and don't have any tiller effect. I think the looks of my Sunset improved with the Bacchetta bars and stem though I still think my Sunset looks awkward. I don't ride recumbents to get attention from women but for what it is worth the Aero has generated much more attention and positive feedback on the club rides I've taken it on than the Sunset. I've had numerous women (and men) approach me about the Aero and complement me on it. It seems upon seeing it for the first time women like to touch the filter foam on the M5 seat. I've seen this happen numerous times, sort of like petting the cute puppy. Also being more up at their height now and able to climb at their speed I find I'm talking with road bike riding club members much more now. There was one woman who hardly ever talked to me or acknowledged me in the past and I recall she would always outclimb me on steep climbs when I rode the Sunset. After her initial round of complements about the Aero I've now ridden and talked with her at length on many rides and I have to back off on the climbs so I don't leave her behind. I do transport my Sunset inside a small hatchback on a regular basis and not having to do any assembly/disassembly is a positive attribute, as I find assembling and disassembling bikes on a regular basis to be a major PITA. As I pointed out above that is an advantage of a compact lowracer such as the Sunset over a large wheeled SWB such as the Aero. However if someone wanted to carry the bike on a roof rack (I wouldn't put any expensive bike on one for any significant distance) the Aero does have the advantage of a conventional double blade fork that interfaces with conventional roof racks. Small wheels have a psychological advantage as most upright riders as consternated to find a bike with "kiddie wheels" going faster than they are. True but I find it much more harmonious to blend in with the roadies more and be accepted more as one of them on a larger wheeled bike climbing at their speeds. I used to bring a lot of esoteric machinery on club rides such as trikes (often with Rohloff hubs), Sunsets and Festinas. There was always a sense of novelty with the small wheels and people didn't expect them to be as fast as they were, especially the small wheels fitted with fat tyres. However I was always on the fringe and often left behind on the climbs and there are a lot of long, steep climbs in my area. With the Aero I interface with the upright club riders in a much more harmonious way yet am still considered to be unique due to the different position I'm riding in. Many people have expressed to me that they much prefer riding with me when I'm on the Aero than a low racer as I'm easier to talk to being closer to their height, can give them somewhat of a draft and am easier for them to see. I have pulled some pacelines on the Aero and have received appreciation for that. This wouldn't have ever been able to happen on the Sunset unless they were all riding low recumbents too. Finally, a lowracer will be more responsive than a highracer due to the shorter vertical moment arm between the tire contact patches and the center of gravity of the combined bike/rider. Whether or not this is an advantage will depend entirely on rider preference. I actually don't notice much difference in that respect though I know in theory you are correct. For me both bikes are adequately responsive and adequately stable though I do find the Aero has the edge with high speed stability, particularly on the rough roads we have around here. I'd rather hit a bump at 70 km/h with the 559mm front wheel of the Aero than with the 305mm front wheel of the Sunset. Zach Kaplan |
#28
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Taiwanese recumbents
"Dave Larrington" wrote in message ...
Tom Sherman wrote: Does anyone have the number of Pharobike Lowfats and ISO 305-mm front wheel Ross Festine were made? Were there *any* 305-front Festinae? I'd be somewhat surprised coz 305 is a rare size over here and good tyres in it are very hard to find. Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/ There were. Peter Ross brought a Festina with a 305mm front wheel and reverse rake fork to the World HPV Championships at Interlaken, Switzerland in 1999. I tried it out there as did many other people. This was a model for riders who weren't tall enough for the 406mm front wheel. I have no idea how many of these 305/406 Festinas were produced. The tyre on the one I rode was a European brand called the Schwalbe City Jet 54-305. I think about a dozen Pharobike Lowfats were made in the first batch. However someone got ahold of the remaining parts inventory from the estate of Dan Duchaine and sold them on eBay a while back and I believe there were some unassembled frames included so there may be more Lowfats on the road now than the amount that Dan had actually built up and shipped out. Zach Kaplan |
#29
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Taiwanese recumbents
"Dave Larrington" wrote in message ...
Tom Sherman wrote: Does anyone have the number of Pharobike Lowfats and ISO 305-mm front wheel Ross Festine were made? Were there *any* 305-front Festinae? I'd be somewhat surprised coz 305 is a rare size over here and good tyres in it are very hard to find. Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/ There were. Peter Ross brought a Festina with a 305mm front wheel and reverse rake fork to the World HPV Championships at Interlaken, Switzerland in 1999. I tried it out there as did many other people. This was a model for riders who weren't tall enough for the 406mm front wheel. I have no idea how many of these 305/406 Festinas were produced. The tyre on the one I rode was a European brand called the Schwalbe City Jet 54-305. I think about a dozen Pharobike Lowfats were made in the first batch. However someone got ahold of the remaining parts inventory from the estate of Dan Duchaine and sold them on eBay a while back and I believe there were some unassembled frames included so there may be more Lowfats on the road now than the amount that Dan had actually built up and shipped out. Zach Kaplan |
#30
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Small Wheels (was: Taiwanese recumbents)
Zach,
Did you decide to use ISO 559-mm wheels on your Aero for tire availability reasons, and do the brakes have enough adjustment to properly compensate for the 6 mm difference in wheel radius? Yes and yes. Also I can runn wider tyres with 559mm wheels. For instance the 25-559 Schwalbe Stelvios I'm using have an actual width of 27mm on the HED Jet wheels I'm using. That is a wider actual width than any 571mm tyre, even the Terry Tellus ST that is labeled 28-571. Zach Kaplan Zach, I thought I remembered reading an article by you extolling the virtues of fat tires on recumbents for their better handling characteristics. Given that you are now using just about the most narrow tire in bentdom on your Aero, have you changed your mind? Or is it that the Aero is a special purpose road bike that needs narrow tires to live up to its potential? Steve Christensen Midland, MI |
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