Octalink ES25 replacement?

On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 16:13:22 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-17 07:17, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, August 17, 2017 at 4:19:21 AM UTC-7,
wrote:
On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 8:26:09 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 6:56:17 PM UTC-7, John B.
wrote:
On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 16:08:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 8/16/2017 9:33 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-15 18:20, jbeattie wrote:


It depends. Aircraft frames can endure 30+ years without major
structural replacements unless the owner let corrosion fester. My
aluminum frame MTB impresses me by how stiff and robust the frame is (a
reason why I bought that particular model). Not even a dent underneath
the fat down tube where all the rocks hit. Rocks that when they hit my
shins make the blood flow.


That isn't true as aircraft undergo almost continuous inspections and
any damage is immediately repaired. The B-52H, for example, which was
built starting in 1961 had a major structural modification of the wing
structure in 1964. The DC-3 (C-47) which was used for the initial "gun
ships" in Vietnam days had literally thousands of modification orders.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 07:21:47 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-16 18:43, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 06:35:57 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-15 18:07, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/15/2017 7:55 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 13:24:49 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-15 08:29, wrote:
On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 1:11:23 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

There is no space down there on the MTB for outboard bearings.

There most certainly is. The cranks are recessed for the added width
or they are simply wider. ...


Right now there is less than 0.020" clearance so this would require
buying new cranks and throwing out the current ones I have that are
still good (less a tooth here and there but who cares). I'd also have to
try my best to calculate the chain line before ordering, often from
scarce data.


... They do not start creaking after a short
time as was stated and they have lower rotational friction under
load.


I understand that. What I don't understand is this: I have helped
replace wheel bearings on offroad motorcycles. These weren't much bigger
and they are exposed to way more load and hammering. Fully loaded bike,
rider, tent, food, booze, clothes, air mattress and so on, blasting over
rutted trails at 40mph or more. Those bearings lasted north of 50k
miles. They weren't even shot, it was just PM.

If there just was an ES25 replacement where the left cup isn't plastic
I'd be happy. For my 1982 road bike there was but maybe I am out of luck
for the MTB even though it's a 2103 model year.

You keep talking about that plastic cup. Is this because you *think*
it might fail or because it *has* failed? I suspect the former as had
it actually failed you would have trumpeted the fact to the Heavens.


I have not seen those fail but lot of other plastic parts on bicycles.
Many of which I then replaced with aluminum.


Mr. Muzi probably has more experience with those cartridge BB's then
(again) probably the rest of the group combined. I wonder whether he
might care to comment on the frequency, in his experience, that those
plastic cups fail?

Of course Mr. Muzi is not from California and I'm sure he doesn't
spend all his time drinking home brewed beer, but still, his
experiences might prove informative.


You are correct. Nylon cups, while ugly and inexpensive (perhaps a
feature, maybe merely declasse) are much less trouble than steel or
aluminum cups. They don't move, corrode or crack as metal cups sometimes
do /in extremis/ .


Thanks. Then I'll just rip the thing out and replace it with another
ES25. And then 5k miles later another ...

At a cost of $0.004296 a mile.


Oh, the cost of that won't matter. It's the hassle of having to crack
out the wrenches for that so often. And cleaning the MTB down there
where the horse poop and all tends to cake up.

Yup, it certainly is a hassle to check the bike. One can sympathize.
Of course a casual look occasionally might have prevented some or all
of your many problems.

As a 1.5mm, 1 x 19, stainless, cable has a Minimum breaking load (MBL)
of 190 kg. or 480 lbs. your famous account of the breaking brake cable
was undoubtedly due to a lack of maintenance.

As for how much more wonderful your automobile is, my wife just took
here small Honda in for it's routine checkup. 66,466 Km and the cost
of repairs was US$425.00. Never been driven off the road, only driven
by an old lady of 75 and never crashed or wrecked.

The major problems were both lower, front, suspension members, "wings"
the Honda book has it, required replacing and both rear hub bearings
were bad.

I might add that the main reason for the size of the bill is that they
no longer repair anything. The rear hub bearings (front wheel drive)
were rough so they replaced the entire hub. When I asked why not just
change the bearings they told me that Honda's policy, and the parts
stocked, required a hub replacement.

In terms of your bicycle that would be equal to replacing the front
fork and both wheel hubs. But since the practice is not to repair the
bits and pieces simply replace the entire member it would have been
the front forks and both wheels.

Yes Sir! Auto's are better.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thursday, August 17, 2017 at 4:13:19 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-17 07:17, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, August 17, 2017 at 4:19:21 AM UTC-7,
wrote:
On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 8:26:09 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 6:56:17 PM UTC-7, John B.
wrote:
On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 16:08:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 8/16/2017 9:33 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-15 18:20, jbeattie wrote:


That ship sailed when you got Octalink.


When buying an MTB that isn't completely custom-assembled
there isn't much choice.

Poor Joerg.

All my bikes were "custom assembled". Some more then once :-)
New wheels, new crank set, new hand;e bars, new seat..... the
list just goes on and on.

But thanks to Joerg I no longer answer, "Yup, did it myself"
when someone asks me something like did I replaced the seat.
Now when asked "Oh! How did you get that new seat?" I reply,
"custom assembled".

Sort of OT, but I discovered my Cannondale CX commuter bike frame
was broken while cleaning it on my work stand, so I just stripped
off the parts and continued cleaning the frame to get it ready to
take back to the local dealer. I took it back and was called
later because the Cannondale rep wanted to see the "whole bike"
to make sure it hadn't been crashed, etc. So, I ended up taking
pictures of the parts -- which, except for the shifters and cable
discs, we're all replacements. The OE Truvativ Isis crank was
crap. I was going through ISIS BBs like Kleenex. That got
replaced. The bars broke on my way to work (Cinelli). The stem
was too short. The rear derailleur wore out. The OE Cannondale
hubs wore out in less than two years -- they had ****ty, draggy
seals and open bearings that couldn't hack all the wet weather. I
built a new set of wheels including a generator front wheel. I
changed the seatpost and saddle. I'm on a Cinelli saddle from
1976 -- great saddle -- and a Thompson post. The OE seat post
and Fizik saddle is on my son's CAAD 9 and is worn out. I threw
in a new headset at year ten.

I should be like Joerg and complain about spending money on
replacements. My crappy ISIS BB didn't last a lifetime! ISIS was
the only thing worse than Octalink.


And here you guys razz me for being too critical of the quality of
bicycle parts. In the automotive world a manufacturer with such failure
rates would be our business prontissimo.

Imagine you were a car commuter and the equivalent happened with your
car. The drive shafts conks out in due course, you go through universal
joints like Kleenex, the steering wheel breaks, then the transmission
wears out, in less than two years the wheel bearings start singing the
blues. Oh, and then the car's chassis develops a big fat crack at a
structurally critical location. A car owner would be up in arms about
that. Yet with bicycles we are expected to find this perfectly normal?

My wife has a Nissan that gets recalled about every six months. Small things that don't affect its operation, but still requires a shop visit.

My expectations for a 20lb bike are different than a 2,000lb car -- and I always change out OE parts just because I have preferences. I changed out the Truvativ crank because ISIS sucked, but I also wanted different chainrings. Other things wore out or broke, which is the story of my life. I don't get outraged. I get replacements.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 8/17/2017 9:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 16:13:22 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-17 07:17, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, August 17, 2017 at 4:19:21 AM UTC-7,
wrote:
On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 8:26:09 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 6:56:17 PM UTC-7, John B.
wrote:
On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 16:08:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 8/16/2017 9:33 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-15 18:20, jbeattie wrote:


It depends. Aircraft frames can endure 30+ years without major
structural replacements unless the owner let corrosion fester. My
aluminum frame MTB impresses me by how stiff and robust the frame is (a
reason why I bought that particular model). Not even a dent underneath
the fat down tube where all the rocks hit. Rocks that when they hit my
shins make the blood flow.


That isn't true as aircraft undergo almost continuous inspections and
any damage is immediately repaired. The B-52H, for example, which was
built starting in 1961 had a major structural modification of the wing
structure in 1964. The DC-3 (C-47) which was used for the initial "gun
ships" in Vietnam days had literally thousands of modification orders.


mmmmm, electric Gatling guns...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKOrpyO0z48

skip to 1:30

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, August 17, 2017 at 10:34:15 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/17/2017 7:19 AM, wrote:

I think that as stiff as the new types of bikes are that they simply break themselves apart on the bad road conditions.

That can't be! They're "stiff but compliant"! Just read the reviews! ;-)

The carbon fiber crowd simply go crazy if you so much as imply that a CF bike can break. So I show them all of the photos of CF bikes that have simply broken into pieces and ask them to show me all of these broken steel bikes.. So they return with a couple of photos of old cheap steel bikes. On with a broken drive side chain stay and another with a seat tube broken at the bottom bracket. I doubt that either of these would lose control unless you were doing something remarkably bad with a Schwinn or Diamondback. Oh, and a photo of an old Cannondale again with the seat tube broken at the bottom bracket high enough that I doubt it even affected stability.

On Thursday, August 17, 2017 at 4:13:19 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-17 07:17, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, August 17, 2017 at 4:19:21 AM UTC-7,
wrote:
On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 8:26:09 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 6:56:17 PM UTC-7, John B.
wrote:
On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 16:08:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 8/16/2017 9:33 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-15 18:20, jbeattie wrote:


That ship sailed when you got Octalink.


When buying an MTB that isn't completely custom-assembled
there isn't much choice.

Poor Joerg.

All my bikes were "custom assembled". Some more then once :-)
New wheels, new crank set, new hand;e bars, new seat..... the
list just goes on and on.

But thanks to Joerg I no longer answer, "Yup, did it myself"
when someone asks me something like did I replaced the seat.
Now when asked "Oh! How did you get that new seat?" I reply,
"custom assembled".

Sort of OT, but I discovered my Cannondale CX commuter bike frame
was broken while cleaning it on my work stand, so I just stripped
off the parts and continued cleaning the frame to get it ready to
take back to the local dealer. I took it back and was called
later because the Cannondale rep wanted to see the "whole bike"
to make sure it hadn't been crashed, etc. So, I ended up taking
pictures of the parts -- which, except for the shifters and cable
discs, we're all replacements. The OE Truvativ Isis crank was
crap. I was going through ISIS BBs like Kleenex. That got
replaced. The bars broke on my way to work (Cinelli). The stem
was too short. The rear derailleur wore out. The OE Cannondale
hubs wore out in less than two years -- they had ****ty, draggy
seals and open bearings that couldn't hack all the wet weather. I
built a new set of wheels including a generator front wheel. I
changed the seatpost and saddle. I'm on a Cinelli saddle from
1976 -- great saddle -- and a Thompson post. The OE seat post
and Fizik saddle is on my son's CAAD 9 and is worn out. I threw
in a new headset at year ten.

I should be like Joerg and complain about spending money on
replacements. My crappy ISIS BB didn't last a lifetime! ISIS was
the only thing worse than Octalink.


And here you guys razz me for being too critical of the quality of
bicycle parts. In the automotive world a manufacturer with such failure
rates would be our business prontissimo.

Imagine you were a car commuter and the equivalent happened with your
car. The drive shafts conks out in due course, you go through universal
joints like Kleenex, the steering wheel breaks, then the transmission
wears out, in less than two years the wheel bearings start singing the
blues. Oh, and then the car's chassis develops a big fat crack at a
structurally critical location. A car owner would be up in arms about
that. Yet with bicycles we are expected to find this perfectly normal?


BTW, the pictures of all the non-OE stuff were good enough. My
new frame is in. Warranty replacement after 12 years -- free of
charge. That's my fifth (?) Cannondale replacement since 1984.
It's going to hang on the wall for a while since I already bought
a replacement. My next big purchase will be replacement for my
roof-rack catastrophe SuperSix. That's underway -- a Trek direct
from my friends at the company. I've totally shifted brand
loyalty.

I think that as stiff as the new types of bikes are that they
simply break themselves apart on the bad road conditions. I have a
road I ride on and it has sections of old pavement interspersed
with new. Rolling from one to the other on my aluminum or carbon
bikes was an entirely new experience from a steel bike.


I prefer steel. I am wondering what will happen to the many CX bikes and
MTBs made with carbon frames. Those that haven't turned into garage
queens but see a few thousand hard miles per year like my bicycles do.


Aluminum has a fatigue life, but I figure 12 years of hard use
followed by a free replacement is pretty good.


It depends. Aircraft frames can endure 30+ years without major
structural replacements unless the owner let corrosion fester. My
aluminum frame MTB impresses me by how stiff and robust the frame is (a
reason why I bought that particular model). Not even a dent underneath
the fat down tube where all the rocks hit. Rocks that when they hit my
shins make the blood flow.



I've gotten used to the steel bikes now and they feel like they hit
bumps hard but they don't throw me off the saddle or demand that I
get up off the saddle like the carbon bikes did. I no longer trust
in "new" and "modern".

I was riding my old CAAD 9 while visiting my son in SLC last weekend.
It's his second bike and my go-to bike when visiting. It's a lively
frame that is very steel-like -- except the weight. It is definitely
more forgiving in the front-end than my last Columbus SP frame.

At one point riding with my son, I thought the CAAD 9 was too limber
in the front end when I got a nasty speed wobble at about 60mph --
but then I realized that I was just terrified and stiff through the
shoulders and was causing my own problems.


I get antsy if the speedometer climbs reaches around 45mph. It did
yesterday. The speed limit was .. ahem .. 25mph.


... I put my knees against the
top tube and relaxed my shoulders and the bike railed the rest of the
downhill. I do lots of descending around here, but its mostly twisty
and steep and often not that long. It's like slalom skiing where you
shell speed in the corners. Around SLC, you can hit these long open
7-8% descents where you can hit terminal velocity -- which was an
adjustment for me.


And then the front tire decides to have a side wall blow-out ...


The twisting canyons around SLC are like riding around here except
they're two or three times as long and some are super-narrow -- like
driveway narrow. You can't pick up that much speed unless you're
wiling to take a chance encountering a car on the other side of a
blind corner -- or go flying off a cliff. On the big canyons with
wider roads, the descents can be scary because of the high volume of
car traffic. It seems that driving on mountain roads is a weekend
pastime for people in SLC -- and so is riding. Some of the easier
routes (up Emigration Canyon) looked like ant trails of cyclists. It
was impressive.


This cornering stuff concerned me a bit ever since I was a kid. One kid
in our town over-cooked a curve on dirt, went over a cliff, sailed 100ft
or so in free fall and died. Hopefully on impact and not after a lot of
suffering.

Joerg - that's a false comparison. Cars are not designed for the ultimate in light weight. A car brake disk is 3/8" thick and can be refaced several times. A bicycle disk must be replaced in total the first time it gets any grooves in it or if it has heat distortion.

The engine, transmission and differential all are in lubrication baths. Wheel bearings and such are two to three times heavier than the maximum calculated loads.

On Thursday, August 17, 2017 at 6:55:32 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 07:22:59 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-16 18:34, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 06:33:41 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-15 18:20, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 7:16:29 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-14 18:37, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 07:04:07 -0700, Joerg
wrote:
much snipped

Gimmee a BB that weighs a pound and lasts forever.

That ship sailed when you got Octalink.


When buying an MTB that isn't completely custom-assembled there isn't
much choice.


... Square drive -- maybe, but
it would require maintenance. Any sealed unit (internal or external
bearing) will fail after a period of time -- sometimes a very long
period.


I now have a sealed UN-55 BB in my road bike which has square taper
cranks. So far there were adjustable Shimano 600 BBs in there but those
have become unobtanium, at least at reasonable prices.


Seek and thou shall find:
http://tinyurl.com/yapw9ats
US$2.42
Or a complete set with bearings, spindle and a wrench US$ 24.03

I think I have written about talking to a Chinese wholesaler at a
trade show here who would, in volume, supply the three piece BB's for
US$1.00 each.


Which will last what? Three rides?

I have no idea, but given that, according to what I read, China makes
60% of the world's bicycles, and 86% of the bicycles sold in the U.S.,
I suspect that it is a bit more then three rides.

Shimano, for example, has a major factory in China so very possible
your ES25 bottom brackets could have been made there.

It's my understanding that Shimano only manufactures 105 through DuraAce in Japan and anything below that is make in China. While it doesn't work as good as the top level parts it seems to last as long to me.

On 8/18/2017 10:35 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, August 17, 2017 at 6:55:32 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 07:22:59 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-16 18:34, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 06:33:41 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-15 18:20, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 7:16:29 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-14 18:37, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 07:04:07 -0700, Joerg
wrote:
much snipped

Gimmee a BB that weighs a pound and lasts forever.

That ship sailed when you got Octalink.


When buying an MTB that isn't completely custom-assembled there isn't
much choice.


... Square drive -- maybe, but
it would require maintenance. Any sealed unit (internal or external
bearing) will fail after a period of time -- sometimes a very long
period.


I now have a sealed UN-55 BB in my road bike which has square taper
cranks. So far there were adjustable Shimano 600 BBs in there but those
have become unobtanium, at least at reasonable prices.


Seek and thou shall find:
http://tinyurl.com/yapw9ats
US$2.42
Or a complete set with bearings, spindle and a wrench US$ 24.03

I think I have written about talking to a Chinese wholesaler at a
trade show here who would, in volume, supply the three piece BB's for
US$1.00 each.


Which will last what? Three rides?

I have no idea, but given that, according to what I read, China makes
60% of the world's bicycles, and 86% of the bicycles sold in the U.S.,
I suspect that it is a bit more then three rides.

Shimano, for example, has a major factory in China so very possible
your ES25 bottom brackets could have been made there.

It's my understanding that Shimano only manufactures 105 through DuraAce in Japan and anything below that is make in China. While it doesn't work as good as the top level parts it seems to last as long to me.


Significant Shimano production is in Malaysia just as
significant Campagnolo production is in Romania.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2017-08-17 19:13, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 16:13:22 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-17 07:17, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, August 17, 2017 at 4:19:21 AM UTC-7,
wrote:
On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 8:26:09 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 6:56:17 PM UTC-7, John B.
wrote:
On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 16:08:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 8/16/2017 9:33 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-15 18:20, jbeattie wrote:


It depends. Aircraft frames can endure 30+ years without major
structural replacements unless the owner let corrosion fester. My
aluminum frame MTB impresses me by how stiff and robust the frame is (a
reason why I bought that particular model). Not even a dent underneath
the fat down tube where all the rocks hit. Rocks that when they hit my
shins make the blood flow.


That isn't true as aircraft undergo almost continuous inspections and
any damage is immediately repaired. The B-52H, for example, which was
built starting in 1961 had a major structural modification of the wing
structure in 1964. The DC-3 (C-47) which was used for the initial "gun
ships" in Vietnam days had literally thousands of modification orders.


We jumped out of the Dornier DO-27. Until it was 30 years old it never
had needed structural repairs. Just engine TBO and the usual stuff. The
only reason that this aircraft in perfect shape had to be retired from
commercial service was that the manufacturer was not willing to bless
the fuselage past the 30-year mark.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-08-17 19:10, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/17/2017 7:13 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-17 07:17, jbeattie wrote:


I should be like Joerg and complain about spending money on
replacements. My crappy ISIS BB didn't last a lifetime! ISIS was
the only thing worse than Octalink.


And here you guys razz me for being too critical of the quality of
bicycle parts. In the automotive world a manufacturer with such
failure rates would be our business prontissimo.

Imagine you were a car commuter and the equivalent happened with your
car. The drive shafts conks out in due course, you go through
universal joints like Kleenex, the steering wheel breaks, then the
transmission wears out, in less than two years the wheel bearings
start singing the blues. Oh, and then the car's chassis develops a big
fat crack at a structurally critical location. A car owner would be up
in arms about that. Yet with bicycles we are expected to find this
perfectly normal?

There are choices, Joerg. You (like most of us here) choose to buy sport
bikes - that is, bikes that compete in the market by trying to be fairly
lightweight, bikes that use "innovative" designs for components, bikes
designed for higher performance or off-road banging about.


Since when is a XC MTB a sport bike? Also, I have an SUV, a _sport_
utility vehicle. In over 20 years not even a bulb in a dome light has
ever dared to burn out.


You have the opportunity to buy bikes with much stouter components. Buy
yourself one of the upright Dutch utility bikes! Every part of it would
probably last much longer than what you chose to buy. Yes, it may weigh
50 pounds, but you've repeatedly told us you don't care about weight.


Having lived in the Netherlands I have ridden those. Guess what, they
broke. The first thing I thoroughly crunched was ... the BB. All the way
so riding home had become immpossible.


You're like a guy who buys an Alfa Romeo and complains that it's more
fragile than his neighbor's dump truck.


Nope. I'd never buy an Alfa, that's not for me. Just like I won't buy
some super-light carbon fiber deal for a bicycle.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/