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  #91  
Old September 8th 17, 11:04 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doug Landau
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Posts: 1,424
Default Taya Chain

On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 1:53:30 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-08 13:19, Doug Landau wrote:
On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 12:46:23 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-08 09:20, sms wrote:
On 9/7/2017 7:59 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-06 17:25, Doug Landau wrote:
On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 at 1:29:59 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-28 15:59, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/28/2017 4:28 PM, wrote:
On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 1:59:20 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-28 13:43, sms wrote:
I replaced the chain that I broke on Saturday with one I
had in my garage that I must have purchased five to ten
years ago.

It has a connecting link and it says "Taya" on it. It's for
6,7,8 gearing. It seems okay, but I think that this is the
first time I've used a chain with a connecting link since
childhood. I looked up Taya and it's a big Taiwanese chain
manufacturer.


I still have a Sachs-Sedis 7-speed chain on my road bike
which I bought from a friend as NOS, for $6 which was the old
sticker price (the sticker had already turned brownish). No
link, mounted with hammer and anvil as usual. To my utter
amazement it doesn't show any measurable stretch after over
2000mi and sometimes I really put the coals on because of our
hills. Even the old Wippermann chains could not rival that. I
am very religious about chain cleaning and lube though.

The old 5-6-7 speed Sachs chains wore out three days after the
bike was junked.


The Sedis (later Sachs-Sedis) material and Delta hardening
process was not only exceptional but unsurpassed down to today
except for possibly Record chains. That ended with SRAM.


Why is that? In the automotive world such an advance in technology
is kept and further developed, not rescinded and chucked back into
the dust bin. Well, usually.

Simple - the motor runs quieter, and consumers buy it more readily.
Hence we saw plastic teeth on timing gears.


And they make that last 100,000mi before a PM swap. That's what it
says in my SUV's manual and when the old belts came out they still
looked like new.

The recommended timing belt change interval is very conservative. I've
had it done on my SUV at 100K and while the belt did not look new when
it came out, it was clear that it would have gone far longer without
breaking. There are several advantages to timing belts versus timing
chains, especially on engines where a long chain or belt is needed. A
timing chain needs to have a system to keep it oiled. Chains stretch
more than a kevlar reinforced neoprene belt. Chains are noisier. Chains
are expensive to replace and contrary to what some people believe, they
do NOT last "forever" just because there is no scheduled replacement
interval.


The best was my Citroen 2CV, the 16-horse version. Two meshed metal
gears (no belt, no chain). It also had no distributor and no external
belts to drive anything. The generator sat directly on the shaft and the
propeller to cool the air-cooled engine sat in front of that on the same
shaft.


Gear drive is noisy. It whines.


Nope.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRCLxG2vQ88
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RFs5DIT27U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfhY0JZqbQU

This is the kind I had:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LNmnlDeKh0

What sounds like a whine is from the tips of the metal propeller for air
cooling which runs at the full crankshaft speed because it is mounted on
it sans clutch. They didn't shape them in any way because these were
very low-cost cars, it was just the raw stamped-out metal. It could only
be heard with the hood open and not inside the car. Later when the upped
it to 23hp there was a better shaped plastic propeller and that didn't
have a whine. However, that more "powerful" engine broke with one of the
traditions in that it had an alternator that was belt-driven instead of
the DC-generator on the shaft.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


If the noise was acceptable then we wouldn't have timing chains and belts in the 1st place, and passenger-car motors would have used gear drive all along.
Ads
  #92  
Old September 8th 17, 11:08 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,345
Default Taya Chain

On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 1:07:23 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-08 08:18, wrote:
On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 12:40:37 PM UTC-7, Doug Landau
wrote:
On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 8:26:26 AM UTC-7,
wrote:
On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 at 5:25:33 PM UTC-7, Doug Landau
wrote:
On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 at 1:29:59 PM UTC-7, Joerg
wrote:
On 2017-08-28 15:59, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/28/2017 4:28 PM,
wrote:
On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 1:59:20 PM UTC-7, Joerg
wrote:
On 2017-08-28 13:43, sms wrote:
I replaced the chain that I broke on Saturday with
one I had in my garage that I must have purchased
five to ten years ago.

It has a connecting link and it says "Taya" on it.
It's for 6,7,8 gearing. It seems okay, but I think
that this is the first time I've used a chain with a
connecting link since childhood. I looked up Taya and
it's a big Taiwanese chain manufacturer.


I still have a Sachs-Sedis 7-speed chain on my road
bike which I bought from a friend as NOS, for $6 which
was the old sticker price (the sticker had already
turned brownish). No link, mounted with hammer and
anvil as usual. To my utter amazement it doesn't show
any measurable stretch after over 2000mi and sometimes
I really put the coals on because of our hills. Even
the old Wippermann chains could not rival that. I am
very religious about chain cleaning and lube though.

The old 5-6-7 speed Sachs chains wore out three days
after the bike was junked.


The Sedis (later Sachs-Sedis) material and Delta hardening
process was not only exceptional but unsurpassed down to
today except for possibly Record chains. That ended with
SRAM.


Why is that? In the automotive world such an advance in
technology is kept and further developed, not rescinded and
chucked back into the dust bin. Well, usually.

Simple - the motor runs quieter, and consumers buy it more
readily. Hence we saw plastic teeth on timing gears.

In this case, the non-hardened chains make less noise, 'cuz the
edges go 'ting' less, and consumers perceive this as better
shifting. ;-)

Doug, some woman came around the corner, dropped her water bottle
(so she says while clutching her smartphone to her breast) fished
around for it and ran into the back of my parked car turning it
into a pile of scrape metal and plastic. Looking for replacements
I find 5 year old cars with 200,000 miles on the original motors
and not only said to be running smoothly but still getting good
mileage. That isn't being done with plastic gears. I picked up a
2007 with 50,000 miles on it and expect it to last my lifetime
with only normal maintenance.

I'm talking about the automotive scene in the 1970s, Tom.


Doug, what cars used plastic gears in the '70's? Perhaps there were
but at that time I was buying pretty good cars like Mustangs and
Camaros with big engines in them. Not to drive fast so much as to get
on the freeway ahead of people purposely trying to cut you off.


Volvo, but with plastic gears there is usually no chain or belt involved:

http://212.247.61.152/EU/ZF0001_bild...otor/024_s.jpg

They could go pretty fast, too, especially after being souped up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqzDCkZh7fM

A friend's parents had a Volvo with the plastic gear. He said when that
failed it was replaced with a metal one by the dealer repair shop and
afterwards the engine was noisier.


When you hear that "week" as gears are shifted that puts a HUGE strain on the cam gear. Though that gear does look overbuilt all to hell.
  #94  
Old September 8th 17, 11:13 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,345
Default Taya Chain

On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 3:01:10 PM UTC-7, Doug Landau wrote:
On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 2:51:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 10:20:34 AM UTC-7, Doug Landau wrote:
On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 8:39:10 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 6:58:42 PM UTC-7, Doug Landau wrote:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums.../t-335969.html
http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/vi...-identify.html
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...placement.html
http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Engine/chains.htm

Doug - those were not plastic gears. It was a COATING that could peel off and cause problems. Mostly they plugged the oil system.

I'd be careful blaming jumped timing on the coating. Tearing through the gears drag racing would beat the timing gears to death and this normally caused the timing gear failures. I've seen a tooth broken off and the jackass still driving it with Lord only knows how the gears would work.

Tom shut yer mouth willya. I towed the old family car home myself from skool, and changed the timing chain and gears; the teeth were nylon and stripped off, and the chain had hopped and the timing marks on the gears were no longer aligned, but off by one tooth. Which is why all the backfiring and spasms when it wouldn't start.


If it was really a plastic gear it would have broken the other teeth off as well. It was a plastic coated steel gear. As I said - generally the worst thing that would happen is that the plastic would peel off and clog the oil system. But when new they did have a more quiet operation.

These were the sorts of cars I actually worked on myself. Until I got too important to have black grease stains all over my hands. Now I have black chain lube stains all over my hands.


You have old-age dementia


And you were referring to American cars and not those weird fereners. American cars from the 70's and 80's didn't use plastic gears.
  #95  
Old September 8th 17, 11:28 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doug Landau
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,424
Default Taya Chain

On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 3:13:26 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 3:01:10 PM UTC-7, Doug Landau wrote:
On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 2:51:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 10:20:34 AM UTC-7, Doug Landau wrote:
On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 8:39:10 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 6:58:42 PM UTC-7, Doug Landau wrote:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums.../t-335969.html
http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/vi...-identify.html
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...placement.html
http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Engine/chains.htm

Doug - those were not plastic gears. It was a COATING that could peel off and cause problems. Mostly they plugged the oil system.

I'd be careful blaming jumped timing on the coating. Tearing through the gears drag racing would beat the timing gears to death and this normally caused the timing gear failures. I've seen a tooth broken off and the jackass still driving it with Lord only knows how the gears would work.

Tom shut yer mouth willya. I towed the old family car home myself from skool, and changed the timing chain and gears; the teeth were nylon and stripped off, and the chain had hopped and the timing marks on the gears were no longer aligned, but off by one tooth. Which is why all the backfiring and spasms when it wouldn't start.

If it was really a plastic gear it would have broken the other teeth off as well. It was a plastic coated steel gear. As I said - generally the worst thing that would happen is that the plastic would peel off and clog the oil system. But when new they did have a more quiet operation.

These were the sorts of cars I actually worked on myself. Until I got too important to have black grease stains all over my hands. Now I have black chain lube stains all over my hands.


You have old-age dementia


And you were referring to American cars and not those weird fereners. American cars from the 70's and 80's didn't use plastic gears.


You said mountain earlier today where you meant mounting, and in lue of where you meant in lieu of, and I'm telling you, when the plastic teeth break off, then the timing chain skips and the car will no longer start.
  #98  
Old September 9th 17, 02:52 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Taya Chain

On 9/8/2017 3:06 PM, Joerg wrote:
O

Same with the tires BTW. They had 60k miles, still half the tread but
were well past 10 years. Looked good buy common recommendations state
that means it's time to buy new tires. Try _that_ with a bicycle tire.


60,000 miles on the tires and they still had half the tread left?
Meaning your car tires would last 120,000 miles if they weren't too old?

Joerg, you need someone to edit your fantastic claims, to give them at
least a _hint_ of plausibility.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #99  
Old September 9th 17, 03:08 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Taya Chain

On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 6:52:52 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/8/2017 3:06 PM, Joerg wrote:
O

Same with the tires BTW. They had 60k miles, still half the tread but
were well past 10 years. Looked good buy common recommendations state
that means it's time to buy new tires. Try _that_ with a bicycle tire.


60,000 miles on the tires and they still had half the tread left?
Meaning your car tires would last 120,000 miles if they weren't too old?

Joerg, you need someone to edit your fantastic claims, to give them at
least a _hint_ of plausibility.


Joerg needs to learn that tires have a shelf-life. http://www.tiresafetygroup.com/tires...-in-six-years/ It's not just about tread wear.

I defended a death case involving tread separation on a tire that had more than half its tread left.

Bicyclists would be outraged if their tire tread fell of and killed them! I can't believe what car owners put up with. They should make car tires as durable as bike tires! And for a dollar. No, make that $.50.

-- Jay Beattie.

  #100  
Old September 9th 17, 03:24 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Taya Chain

On Fri, 8 Sep 2017 08:32:31 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 6:36:10 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 7 Sep 2017 08:09:27 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 at 5:11:09 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:

I think that you are confusing reality with your own fantasies. In
years past I have worked with two engineers who had worked in the
automobile industry. They both said the same thing, that the major
effort in the motor industry was to "make it cheaper".

Gee then it must be the government forcing manufacturers to make cars safer since the fatalities per passenger mile have dropped so precipitously.


You mean like when the government ordered that bumpers must withstand
an impact of 5 mph crash into a parked vehicle of the same weight?
Which isn't applicable to SUV's, minivans, or pickups trucks; only
passenger cars. Apparently trucks and vans never crash.

But of course, that was a stupid law imposed in 1971. More thoughtful
folks amended it in 1982 (for 1983 model year) and reduced it.


John, my wife's older Keo tells her if a tire is low. Is that by government edict? My car warns me if my gas is getting low so that I won't run out on the freeway. Was that a government edict? We are getting small sedans not only swerving in front of tractor trailers but being struck so hard that they are doing multiple roll-overs with the cars totally unrecognizable afterwards and NO INJURIES to the passengers. What are the government edicts? You have to wear your seatbelts.


Yup. Really necessary devices...

Amazingly I have had access to a motor vehicle WITHOUT the devices you
mention for (lets see....) sixty-nine years, as of this month, and
unbelievably I have never had a flat tire because I failed to check my
tires and I've never "run out of gas on the freeway" (or anywhere
else). My wife, who has only had "her" car for 20 years or so also has
never had a flat tire because she failed to get her tires inflated or
run out of gas.
--
Cheers,

John B.

 




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