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#61
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Bus bike rack too short, how to strap in a bike quickly? [update]
On Friday, September 14, 2018 at 4:09:36 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-09-14 12:28, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 9/14/2018 12:26 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-09-13 18:03, jbeattie wrote: [...] ... They work for odd shaped bikes around he http://farm1.staticflickr.com/93/248...3cdf194b2f.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...rying_bike.jpg My road bike measures 39-1/2" axle to axle. That is not outlandishly large and should fit. But it did not. This sounds more and more like an operator problem. If the bike doesn't go in then it doesn't go in. It's that simple. At the first time the bus driver (himself a cyclist) came out and tried, then scratching his head what we could do. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ I'd like to see an image of the ACTUAL bus rack your road bike won't fit into. Me long wheelbase 1980's MTB fits in our bus racks without any problems at all and the wheelbase on that MTB is longer than most modern 26" wheels MTBs. I just can't imagine why you can't get even a 1980's road bike into your bus rack. Cheers |
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#62
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Bus bike rack too short, how to strap in a bike quickly? [update]
On 2018-09-14 14:35, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, September 14, 2018 at 4:09:36 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: On 2018-09-14 12:28, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 9/14/2018 12:26 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-09-13 18:03, jbeattie wrote: [...] ... They work for odd shaped bikes around he http://farm1.staticflickr.com/93/248...3cdf194b2f.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...rying_bike.jpg My road bike measures 39-1/2" axle to axle. That is not outlandishly large and should fit. But it did not. This sounds more and more like an operator problem. If the bike doesn't go in then it doesn't go in. It's that simple. At the first time the bus driver (himself a cyclist) came out and tried, then scratching his head what we could do. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ I'd like to see an image of the ACTUAL bus rack your road bike won't fit into. Me long wheelbase 1980's MTB fits in our bus racks without any problems at all and the wheelbase on that MTB is longer than most modern 26" wheels MTBs. I just can't imagine why you can't get even a 1980's road bike into your bus rack. It's not that easy. First, they seem to have a plethora of racks, some partially good, some bad, and you never know which one comes. Then the bus is on a hot schedule and loops, no end points, so I'd need to have a buddy to take a pic, fast. And carry a camera because my phone doesn't have one. Look at the link Jay pointed out, that shows the problem. Even a regular 26" bike started to ride up on the slot ends. See at 0:33min, front wheel rides up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETtnX_KScI8 The rack of that bus is of poor design and that's exactly what I encountered except a road bike naturally has larger wheels which makes it worse. With my MTB one wheel was almost completely out of the slot. Now an Arno strap can "fix" that but a bus driver might (understandably) refuse. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#63
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Bus bike rack too short, how to strap in a bike quickly? [update]
On 9/14/2018 5:54 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-09-14 14:35, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Friday, September 14, 2018 at 4:09:36 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: On 2018-09-14 12:28, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 9/14/2018 12:26 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-09-13 18:03, jbeattie wrote: [...] ... They work for odd shaped bikes around he http://farm1.staticflickr.com/93/248...3cdf194b2f.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...rying_bike.jpg My road bike measures 39-1/2" axle to axle. That is not outlandishly large and should fit. But it did not. This sounds more and more like an operator problem. If the bike doesn't go in then it doesn't go in. It's that simple. At the first time the bus driver (himself a cyclist) came out and tried, then scratching his head what we could do. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ I'd like to see an image of the ACTUAL bus rack your road bike won't fit into. Me long wheelbase 1980's MTB fits in our bus racks without any problems at all and the wheelbase on that MTB is longer than most modern 26" wheels MTBs. I just can't imagine why you can't get even a 1980's road bike into your bus rack. It's not that easy. First, they seem to have a plethora of racks, some partially good, some bad, and you never know which one comes. Then the bus is on a hot schedule and loops, no end points, so I'd need to have a buddy to take a pic, fast. And carry a camera because my phone doesn't have one. Look at the link Jay pointed out, that shows the problem. Even a regular 26" bike started to ride up on the slot ends. See at 0:33min, front wheel rides up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETtnX_KScI8 The rack of that bus is of poor design and that's exactly what I encountered except a road bike naturally has larger wheels which makes it worse. With my MTB one wheel was almost completely out of the slot. Now an Arno strap can "fix" that but a bus driver might (understandably) refuse. But how many hundreds of different riders use those racks? How many reports of lost and damaged bikes have there been? Why aren't complaints piling up at the transit authority? Why are you always on the extreme end of the bell curve? If they say they'll look seriously into your complaints, I suspect it's a diplomacy trick. "If we let him send a letter, maybe he'll go away and complain about mountain lions." -- - Frank Krygowski |
#64
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Bus bike rack too short, how to strap in a bike quickly? [update]
On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 11:10:46 -0700, Joerg
wrote: On 2018-09-14 10:36, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, September 14, 2018 at 9:25:55 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2018-09-13 18:03, jbeattie wrote: On Thursday, September 13, 2018 at 4:29:35 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2018-08-24 07:35, Joerg wrote: Couldn't believe it. Those great agency folks obviously didn't test the bike racks for our local buses before signing the contract. Long story short my 29er bike didn't fit in and neither did my friend's. Luckily the driver was patient and helpful. We had to load the bikes reversed so the hook goes over the rear wheel. Not easy because of my panniers but worked, somehow. The front wheels now rode up on the other side of the rack slot. We both had bungee cords with which we strapped them down as hard as we could. Oh, and the slot width barely fit my 2.25" wide MTB tires barely squeezed in and I had to push down hard. The rack looks like this: https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/spg/sho...8df2678ec2064b When we arrived another rider put his 26" MTB on there on even that barely fit in (rear wheel rode up half an inch). Does anyone know a better "strap down" method that is faster than wrapping a bungee around rim and rack numerous times? Today I did a road bike trip where I also used the bus. The bus had a 3-slot rack but only the innermost slot was designed correctly with one end open. The two outer slots were the same as before, bad design, too short. I know that Jay and Sir won't believe this but I tried and verified it: My road bike did _not_ go into those outer slots. Luckily the inner slot was free. Hey, don't use my name in vain. IIRC you raised doubts in another thread about it and wrote that you are 6'4", which is taller than I am. I've never used a bus bike rack because I ride everywhere and do not need to have my bike hauled on welfare-based mass-transit created by nanny government. Buses are for loser proles who are sucking off the public teat and not for real men like myself who live in the wilds of Oregon. Public transport can greatly increase the riding range. For example, I could not finish a ride in time if I'd go all the way into Sacramento and back. If I use light rail for some of the way back I can. And there's a beer garden that has Kloster Andechs brews plus freshly baked pretzels with Obatzda. By gorry, you are correct in that public transportation can increase the riding range. After all, taking an airplane one could easily "ride" from San Francisco to NYC and back in a single day. But now that we're going on about bike bus racks, I'll go to the practice spot and see if my bike fits. I'm assuming Sacramento is using a standard SportWorks model, which is basically the national standard rack. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avQ6ZHKvNgI That Trek has a 41.7 WB. Go to :33 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETtnX_KScI8 A Volpe with fat tires. Those aren't very fat tires. Also, look more closely and you'll see that this bike already starts riding up at the ends. It does not sit firmly on the bottom of the rail. That can make for an interesting scenario if the bus has to suddenly swerve to avoid something (I always strap mine down but never saw anyone else do that). My MTB was almost all the way out of the slot with one wheel. My MTB tires are 2.2" wire and they barely squeezed in. Most guys around here ride on 2.3" or 2.4" tires which wouldn't fit. Newer 27-1/2" bikes with 3" tires? Forget it. At 0:50min they show a rack that's almost correctly designed. This is a correctly designed rack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y56n-JPGJ6Q ... Maybe Sacto is screwing with you and sending you buses with the super-short racks. It is El Dorado Transit. They have different racks, some semi-ok, some don't work. The best is what I once saw in Europe. They simply hung a bike trailer to the bus which could easily hold a dozen bicycles. That greatly reduces the chance of being left stranded because the rack is already full. -- Cheers John B. |
#65
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Bus bike rack too short, how to strap in a bike quickly? [update]
On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 14:54:05 -0700, Joerg
wrote: On 2018-09-14 14:35, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Friday, September 14, 2018 at 4:09:36 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: On 2018-09-14 12:28, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 9/14/2018 12:26 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-09-13 18:03, jbeattie wrote: [...] ... They work for odd shaped bikes around he http://farm1.staticflickr.com/93/248...3cdf194b2f.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...rying_bike.jpg My road bike measures 39-1/2" axle to axle. That is not outlandishly large and should fit. But it did not. This sounds more and more like an operator problem. If the bike doesn't go in then it doesn't go in. It's that simple. At the first time the bus driver (himself a cyclist) came out and tried, then scratching his head what we could do. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ I'd like to see an image of the ACTUAL bus rack your road bike won't fit into. Me long wheelbase 1980's MTB fits in our bus racks without any problems at all and the wheelbase on that MTB is longer than most modern 26" wheels MTBs. I just can't imagine why you can't get even a 1980's road bike into your bus rack. It's not that easy. First, they seem to have a plethora of racks, some partially good, some bad, and you never know which one comes. Then the bus is on a hot schedule and loops, no end points, so I'd need to have a buddy to take a pic, fast. And carry a camera because my phone doesn't have one. Look at the link Jay pointed out, that shows the problem. Even a regular 26" bike started to ride up on the slot ends. See at 0:33min, front wheel rides up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETtnX_KScI8 The rack of that bus is of poor design and that's exactly what I encountered except a road bike naturally has larger wheels which makes it worse. With my MTB one wheel was almost completely out of the slot. Now an Arno strap can "fix" that but a bus driver might (understandably) refuse. Yet, as your reference states, some 12,000,000 bikes are transported in their racks daily... but you can't get your bike to fit. -- Cheers John B. |
#66
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Bus bike rack too short, how to strap in a bike quickly? [update]
On Friday, September 14, 2018 at 2:53:59 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-09-14 14:35, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Friday, September 14, 2018 at 4:09:36 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: On 2018-09-14 12:28, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 9/14/2018 12:26 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-09-13 18:03, jbeattie wrote: [...] ... They work for odd shaped bikes around he http://farm1.staticflickr.com/93/248...3cdf194b2f.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...rying_bike.jpg My road bike measures 39-1/2" axle to axle. That is not outlandishly large and should fit. But it did not. This sounds more and more like an operator problem. If the bike doesn't go in then it doesn't go in. It's that simple. At the first time the bus driver (himself a cyclist) came out and tried, then scratching his head what we could do. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ I'd like to see an image of the ACTUAL bus rack your road bike won't fit into. Me long wheelbase 1980's MTB fits in our bus racks without any problems at all and the wheelbase on that MTB is longer than most modern 26" wheels MTBs. I just can't imagine why you can't get even a 1980's road bike into your bus rack. It's not that easy. First, they seem to have a plethora of racks, some partially good, some bad, and you never know which one comes. Then the bus is on a hot schedule and loops, no end points, so I'd need to have a buddy to take a pic, fast. And carry a camera because my phone doesn't have one. Look at the link Jay pointed out, that shows the problem. Even a regular 26" bike started to ride up on the slot ends. See at 0:33min, front wheel rides up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETtnX_KScI8 At :33 is a road bike with 700C wheels, unless Bianchi is making a Volpe variant with 650B. It does have flat bars. The rack design undoubtedly requires that a certain percentage of the arc of the wheel is within the tray, but the bike doesn't have to drop to the bottom to be safe. The downward force of the clamping arm holds it in place. That bike is fine. It's not going anywhere. -- Jay Beattie. |
#67
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Bus bike rack too short, how to strap in a bike quickly? [update]
On 2018-09-14 18:00, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, September 14, 2018 at 2:53:59 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2018-09-14 14:35, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Friday, September 14, 2018 at 4:09:36 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: On 2018-09-14 12:28, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 9/14/2018 12:26 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-09-13 18:03, jbeattie wrote: [...] ... They work for odd shaped bikes around he http://farm1.staticflickr.com/93/248...3cdf194b2f.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...rying_bike.jpg My road bike measures 39-1/2" axle to axle. That is not outlandishly large and should fit. But it did not. This sounds more and more like an operator problem. If the bike doesn't go in then it doesn't go in. It's that simple. At the first time the bus driver (himself a cyclist) came out and tried, then scratching his head what we could do. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ I'd like to see an image of the ACTUAL bus rack your road bike won't fit into. Me long wheelbase 1980's MTB fits in our bus racks without any problems at all and the wheelbase on that MTB is longer than most modern 26" wheels MTBs. I just can't imagine why you can't get even a 1980's road bike into your bus rack. It's not that easy. First, they seem to have a plethora of racks, some partially good, some bad, and you never know which one comes. Then the bus is on a hot schedule and loops, no end points, so I'd need to have a buddy to take a pic, fast. And carry a camera because my phone doesn't have one. Look at the link Jay pointed out, that shows the problem. Even a regular 26" bike started to ride up on the slot ends. See at 0:33min, front wheel rides up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETtnX_KScI8 At :33 is a road bike with 700C wheels, unless Bianchi is making a Volpe variant with 650B. It does have flat bars. The rack design undoubtedly requires that a certain percentage of the arc of the wheel is within the tray, but the bike doesn't have to drop to the bottom to be safe. The downward force of the clamping arm holds it in place. That bike is fine. It's not going anywhere. The more the rear tire rides up the less safe the bike is held in place if this bus has to make a sudden sharp left turn in an emergency situation. At 0:35min you can see that the bike comes to rest sloppily, with the rear wheel partially out. What is so difficult to design a rack so bikes don't do this? It's not rocket science, it's easy. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#68
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Bus bike rack too short, how to strap in a bike quickly? [update]
On Saturday, September 15, 2018 at 10:44:38 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-09-14 18:00, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, September 14, 2018 at 2:53:59 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2018-09-14 14:35, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Friday, September 14, 2018 at 4:09:36 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: On 2018-09-14 12:28, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 9/14/2018 12:26 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-09-13 18:03, jbeattie wrote: [...] ... They work for odd shaped bikes around he http://farm1.staticflickr.com/93/248...3cdf194b2f.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...rying_bike.jpg My road bike measures 39-1/2" axle to axle. That is not outlandishly large and should fit. But it did not. This sounds more and more like an operator problem. If the bike doesn't go in then it doesn't go in. It's that simple. At the first time the bus driver (himself a cyclist) came out and tried, then scratching his head what we could do. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ I'd like to see an image of the ACTUAL bus rack your road bike won't fit into. Me long wheelbase 1980's MTB fits in our bus racks without any problems at all and the wheelbase on that MTB is longer than most modern 26" wheels MTBs. I just can't imagine why you can't get even a 1980's road bike into your bus rack. It's not that easy. First, they seem to have a plethora of racks, some partially good, some bad, and you never know which one comes. Then the bus is on a hot schedule and loops, no end points, so I'd need to have a buddy to take a pic, fast. And carry a camera because my phone doesn't have one. Look at the link Jay pointed out, that shows the problem. Even a regular 26" bike started to ride up on the slot ends. See at 0:33min, front wheel rides up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETtnX_KScI8 At :33 is a road bike with 700C wheels, unless Bianchi is making a Volpe variant with 650B. It does have flat bars. The rack design undoubtedly requires that a certain percentage of the arc of the wheel is within the tray, but the bike doesn't have to drop to the bottom to be safe. The downward force of the clamping arm holds it in place. That bike is fine. It's not going anywhere. The more the rear tire rides up the less safe the bike is held in place if this bus has to make a sudden sharp left turn in an emergency situation. At 0:35min you can see that the bike comes to rest sloppily, with the rear wheel partially out. What is so difficult to design a rack so bikes don't do this? It's not rocket science, it's easy. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ I REALLY feel sorry for you. So much negativity must make bicycling such a chore rather than a pleasure. The there's waiting for a bus and having to hope that it is one of the ones with a rack that'll fit your bike. What a way t o have to live and bicycle. Here where I am I can put my MTB, my road or my touring bike on any of the bus racks without any trouble and i do not have to worry about that the next bus coming will have a rack my bike won't fit. Cheers |
#69
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Bus bike rack too short, how to strap in a bike quickly? [update]
On 9/15/2018 10:46 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, September 15, 2018 at 10:44:38 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: On 2018-09-14 18:00, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, September 14, 2018 at 2:53:59 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2018-09-14 14:35, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Friday, September 14, 2018 at 4:09:36 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: On 2018-09-14 12:28, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 9/14/2018 12:26 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-09-13 18:03, jbeattie wrote: [...] ... They work for odd shaped bikes around he http://farm1.staticflickr.com/93/248...3cdf194b2f.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...rying_bike.jpg My road bike measures 39-1/2" axle to axle. That is not outlandishly large and should fit. But it did not. This sounds more and more like an operator problem. If the bike doesn't go in then it doesn't go in. It's that simple. At the first time the bus driver (himself a cyclist) came out and tried, then scratching his head what we could do. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ I'd like to see an image of the ACTUAL bus rack your road bike won't fit into. Me long wheelbase 1980's MTB fits in our bus racks without any problems at all and the wheelbase on that MTB is longer than most modern 26" wheels MTBs. I just can't imagine why you can't get even a 1980's road bike into your bus rack. It's not that easy. First, they seem to have a plethora of racks, some partially good, some bad, and you never know which one comes. Then the bus is on a hot schedule and loops, no end points, so I'd need to have a buddy to take a pic, fast. And carry a camera because my phone doesn't have one. Look at the link Jay pointed out, that shows the problem. Even a regular 26" bike started to ride up on the slot ends. See at 0:33min, front wheel rides up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETtnX_KScI8 At :33 is a road bike with 700C wheels, unless Bianchi is making a Volpe variant with 650B. It does have flat bars. The rack design undoubtedly requires that a certain percentage of the arc of the wheel is within the tray, but the bike doesn't have to drop to the bottom to be safe. The downward force of the clamping arm holds it in place. That bike is fine. It's not going anywhere. The more the rear tire rides up the less safe the bike is held in place if this bus has to make a sudden sharp left turn in an emergency situation. At 0:35min you can see that the bike comes to rest sloppily, with the rear wheel partially out. What is so difficult to design a rack so bikes don't do this? It's not rocket science, it's easy. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ I REALLY feel sorry for you. So much negativity must make bicycling such a chore rather than a pleasure. The there's waiting for a bus and having to hope that it is one of the ones with a rack that'll fit your bike. What a way t o have to live and bicycle. Here where I am I can put my MTB, my road or my touring bike on any of the bus racks without any trouble and i do not have to worry about that the next bus coming will have a rack my bike won't fit. Cheers meanwhile some ask why, others ask, 'why not?' https://macgyverisms.wonderhowto.com...r-car-0138393/ https://www.pinkbike.com/forum/listc...hreadid=107511 https://www.motherearthnews.com/diy/...zmaz84jazloeck https://www.blessthisstuff.com/stuff...misc/tuf-rack/ http://wcswanson.net/dnn/OtherProjec...rProjects.aspx -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#70
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Bus bike rack too short, how to strap in a bike quickly? [update]
On Saturday, September 15, 2018 at 7:44:38 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-09-14 18:00, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, September 14, 2018 at 2:53:59 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2018-09-14 14:35, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Friday, September 14, 2018 at 4:09:36 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: On 2018-09-14 12:28, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 9/14/2018 12:26 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-09-13 18:03, jbeattie wrote: [...] ... They work for odd shaped bikes around he http://farm1.staticflickr.com/93/248...3cdf194b2f.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...rying_bike.jpg My road bike measures 39-1/2" axle to axle. That is not outlandishly large and should fit. But it did not. This sounds more and more like an operator problem. If the bike doesn't go in then it doesn't go in. It's that simple. At the first time the bus driver (himself a cyclist) came out and tried, then scratching his head what we could do. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ I'd like to see an image of the ACTUAL bus rack your road bike won't fit into. Me long wheelbase 1980's MTB fits in our bus racks without any problems at all and the wheelbase on that MTB is longer than most modern 26" wheels MTBs. I just can't imagine why you can't get even a 1980's road bike into your bus rack. It's not that easy. First, they seem to have a plethora of racks, some partially good, some bad, and you never know which one comes. Then the bus is on a hot schedule and loops, no end points, so I'd need to have a buddy to take a pic, fast. And carry a camera because my phone doesn't have one. Look at the link Jay pointed out, that shows the problem. Even a regular 26" bike started to ride up on the slot ends. See at 0:33min, front wheel rides up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETtnX_KScI8 At :33 is a road bike with 700C wheels, unless Bianchi is making a Volpe variant with 650B. It does have flat bars. The rack design undoubtedly requires that a certain percentage of the arc of the wheel is within the tray, but the bike doesn't have to drop to the bottom to be safe. The downward force of the clamping arm holds it in place. That bike is fine. It's not going anywhere. The more the rear tire rides up the less safe the bike is held in place if this bus has to make a sudden sharp left turn in an emergency situation. At 0:35min you can see that the bike comes to rest sloppily, with the rear wheel partially out. What is so difficult to design a rack so bikes don't do this? It's not rocket science, it's easy. Go to the SportWorks catalog. There are many available designs, and newer designs do have an open wheel tray, but keep in mind that it is the front wheel that matters, and the short tray models probably support an equal percentage of the arc of the wheel even when the wheel rides up in the closed wheel tray. Have you seen bicycles littering the roadway? I rode home last night and saw dozens of bikes of various shapes and sizes on the fronts of our local TriMet buses. No complaints were heard, but then again, we're tough Oregonians living in the wilds of Portland. -- Jay Beattie. |
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