#61
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DIY China
Andre Jute wrote:
As for Sumeria, all empires fall eventually. Vide the Roman, the British, the Soviet, eventually but not for a while yet the American (amazing how Trump is staying the rot, and pushing back), and after that the Chinese. Nah, I don't think the EU will get a turn; it's too self-confused and demographically suicidal. The Soviet Empire have fallen but Russia is still the second strongest military power on the face of the earth with a nuclear arsenal at a whole other level than China's. Besides, China is dependent on Russia for much of their arms, and they are dependent on the US and the EU to buy all the stuff the manufacture. China could never conquer either Russia, the EU, or the US military. While we could in turn probably never conquer them either, at least NATO and Russia could nuke them "back to the stone age" as the saying goes (which BTW is unfair to the many very advanced stone age civilizations which didn't show any signs of being the victims of an atomic holocaust). -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 |
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#62
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DIY China
On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 3:44:57 AM UTC, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Andre Jute wrote: As for Sumeria, all empires fall eventually. Vide the Roman, the British, the Soviet, eventually but not for a while yet the American (amazing how Trump is staying the rot, and pushing back), and after that the Chinese. Nah, I don't think the EU will get a turn; it's too self-confused and demographically suicidal. The Soviet Empire have fallen but Russia is still the second strongest military power on the face of the earth with a nuclear arsenal at a whole other level than China's. Besides, China is dependent on Russia for much of their arms, and they are dependent on the US and the EU to buy all the stuff the manufacture. China could never conquer either Russia, the EU, or the US military. While we could in turn probably never conquer them either, at least NATO and Russia could nuke them "back to the stone age" as the saying goes (which BTW is unfair to the many very advanced stone age civilizations which didn't show any signs of being the victims of an atomic holocaust). -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 Much less advanced, indeed backward and savage, countries are already taking over the EU without firing a shot, by the invitation of Angela Merkel. It's called immigration. [sgnd] aboveground and keen to stay there |
#63
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handlebar
Frank Krygowski wrote:
In my kitchen, I find that knives are magnetic. They're almost certainly martensitic stainless steel, which can be hardened. martensitic stainless steel, magnetic, can be hardened with heat treatment Our measuring cups and measuring spoons are non-magnetic, which means they're probably austenitic. austenitic ditto, non-magnetic, cannot be hardened Also, obviously, aluminum is noticeably less dense. Unless it's anodized, it's also softer (i.e. easier to scratch). anodize, to put on an oxide coating on aluminium -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 |
#64
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handlebar
On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 02:38:48 +0100, Emanuel Berg
wrote: Take one piece of aluminium and one piece of stainless steel and hold it in ur hand - they must be the same size, you can feel the weight different: aluminium is much lighter, while stainless is much heavier. It depends on the type of stainless steel. Exotic alloys, complex heat treatment, and a lengthy annealing process, will produce a stainless steel that is quite strong and suitable for bicycle frames (and by implication, handlebars): http://www.kvastainless.com/tubing-info.html http://www.kvastainless.com/bicycles/ http://www.kvastainless.com/technical-library.html The problem is that while steel is fairly cheap, the necessary elements needed to make stainless (nickel, chromium, vanadium, silicon, manganese, phosphor, sulfur, etc) will raise the cost. As an added bonus, stainless work hardens very easily, making fabrication difficult and expensive. http://www.qtstools.com/TechInfo/SAE%20steel%20grades.htm Ferro-chrome ore (which contains about 50-75% chromium), sells for $2.80/kg (Oct 2017 prices). http://www.infomine.com/investment/metal-prices/ferro-chrome/ while iron ore runs about $0.30/kg. http://www.infomine.com/investment/metal-prices/iron-ore-fines/ Very roughly, that would make 20% Chromium stainless cost about $5.00/kg, while a simple high carbon steel, would be about 1/10th the prices of stainless. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#65
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handlebar
On 1/14/2018 1:41 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote: In my kitchen, I find that knives are magnetic. They're almost certainly martensitic stainless steel, which can be hardened. martensitic stainless steel, magnetic, can be hardened with heat treatment Our measuring cups and measuring spoons are non-magnetic, which means they're probably austenitic. austenitic ditto, non-magnetic, cannot be hardened Also, obviously, aluminum is noticeably less dense. Unless it's anodized, it's also softer (i.e. easier to scratch). anodize, to put on an oxide coating on aluminium All correct. We should add, magnetic vs. non-magnetic is not really a binary situation. There are materials that are weakly magnetic, others that are strongly magnetic, etc. I'm still wondering why the handlebar material is so important to you. Is it just a curiosity thing? (Curiosity is generally good, of course.) -- - Frank Krygowski |
#66
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handlebar
On 1/14/2018 2:01 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 02:38:48 +0100, Emanuel Berg wrote: Take one piece of aluminium and one piece of stainless steel and hold it in ur hand - they must be the same size, you can feel the weight different: aluminium is much lighter, while stainless is much heavier. It depends on the type of stainless steel. Exotic alloys, complex heat treatment, and a lengthy annealing process, will produce a stainless steel that is quite strong and suitable for bicycle frames (and by implication, handlebars): http://www.kvastainless.com/tubing-info.html http://www.kvastainless.com/bicycles/ http://www.kvastainless.com/technical-library.html That's a precipitation hardening stainless steel. That's _very_ exotic stuff. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#67
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handlebar
On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 14:32:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 1/14/2018 2:01 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 02:38:48 +0100, Emanuel Berg wrote: Take one piece of aluminium and one piece of stainless steel and hold it in ur hand - they must be the same size, you can feel the weight different: aluminium is much lighter, while stainless is much heavier. It depends on the type of stainless steel. Exotic alloys, complex heat treatment, and a lengthy annealing process, will produce a stainless steel that is quite strong and suitable for bicycle frames (and by implication, handlebars): http://www.kvastainless.com/tubing-info.html http://www.kvastainless.com/bicycles/ http://www.kvastainless.com/technical-library.html That's a precipitation hardening stainless steel. That's _very_ exotic stuff. It may be a pain in the posterior to heat treat, with the steel at 480C-800C for 4 hours waiting for a precipitate to form, but methinks it's becoming more common, available, and possibly affordable: http://www.outokumpu.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/Outokumpu-martensitic-grade-630-data-sheet.pdf 17-4 PH stainless (also known as UNS S17400 or SAE T-630) seems to be available in various flavors: http://www.matweb.com/search/quicktext.aspx?SearchText=UNS+S17400%20stainless http://www.matweb.com/search/QuickText.aspx?SearchText=17-4%20stainless for a multitude of mundane applications: https://www.tubehollows.com/alloys/stainless-steels/17-4 "...alloy 17-4 PH is a superb choice for structural components of airplanes, biomedical hand tools, food processing equipment, pulp and paper mill processing and nuclear waste processing and storage." The tubing is supplied as "solution treated" at moderate hardness, which can be machined and possibly hydroformed into components. Once that's done, a simple low temperature heat treatment (age hardening) brings it up to full strength. There's also 17-7 PH which seems to more appropriate for tubing: https://www.tubehollows.com/alloys/stainless-steels/17-7 No clue on the cost of such a 17-4 PH frame or handlebar: http://www.kvastainless.com/inox-bicycles.html Mo "The Surge of Stainless Steel" https://roadbikeaction.com/features/rba-features/the-surge-of-stainless-steel http://www.bobbrowncycles.com/stainless_frames.htm https://www.google.com/search?q=stainless+steel+bicycle+frame&tbm=isch Drivel: How about a frame from conglomerated materials? In the frame triangle, use one tube each of aluminum, stainless steel, and carbon fiber. The other tubes can be a mix of plastic, ordinary steel, wood, bamboo, and titanium, using whatever material is best suited for the particular structural member. Soon everyone will be riding around on non-homogenous frames. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#68
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handlebar
On Sunday, January 14, 2018 at 7:01:32 PM UTC, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 02:38:48 +0100, Emanuel Berg wrote: Take one piece of aluminium and one piece of stainless steel and hold it in ur hand - they must be the same size, you can feel the weight different: aluminium is much lighter, while stainless is much heavier. It depends on the type of stainless steel. Exotic alloys, complex heat treatment, and a lengthy annealing process, will produce a stainless steel that is quite strong and suitable for bicycle frames (and by implication, handlebars): http://www.kvastainless.com/tubing-info.html http://www.kvastainless.com/bicycles/ http://www.kvastainless.com/technical-library.html The problem is that while steel is fairly cheap, the necessary elements needed to make stainless (nickel, chromium, vanadium, silicon, manganese, phosphor, sulfur, etc) will raise the cost. As an added bonus, stainless work hardens very easily, making fabrication difficult and expensive. http://www.qtstools.com/TechInfo/SAE%20steel%20grades.htm Ferro-chrome ore (which contains about 50-75% chromium), sells for $2.80/kg (Oct 2017 prices). http://www.infomine.com/investment/metal-prices/ferro-chrome/ while iron ore runs about $0.30/kg. http://www.infomine.com/investment/metal-prices/iron-ore-fines/ Very roughly, that would make 20% Chromium stainless cost about $5.00/kg, while a simple high carbon steel, would be about 1/10th the prices of stainless. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 Wrong viewpoint, I think, Jeff. Observably bikes in bicycle-type butted tubes of stainless steel don't cost ten or however many times as much as a bike in other alloys of steel made to the same pattern by the same maker. P&P Noblex stainless (no longer made though you can still get a bike in Noblex if you know where to go) and Reynolds (several stainless lines compared he http://road.cc/content/news/98763-re...beset-revealed ) (1) stainless bikes certainly cost more than straight steel bikes but not magnitudes, nor even whole multiples in most cases. I went into this when I was trying to get my smalltube frame design built, when I discovered that stainless could in fact be a cheap option compared to some aeronautics-grade mild steels. (1) There was a third maker of stainless tube sets for bicycles just starting up about ten, twelve years ago when I was taking an interest. I don't know whether they ever made much of a mark. Andre Jute The only thing about German steel bike I don't like is their virtue-signalling, Gaia butt-kissing, waterbased paint, though in practice it has worked well for my bikes, which live in a heated space and hardly ever see loose gravel. I like hard, chip resistant, oven-baked paints. Once a hotrodder, always a Duco-lover. |
#69
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handlebar
On Fri, 12 Jan 2018 14:53:02 -0500, Duane
wrote: On 11/01/2018 8:27 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote: Duane wrote: What are is your interest in the material? Weight? Strength? Rust? To understand why I hear all the time they break while my intuition tells me this has never been even close to happening to me. Over a lot of years of cycling using steel, aluminum and CF bars I've never broken one either. I think Jay is the only one I've heard of breaking a bar where a crash wasn't involved. I don't climb as much as he does though. Same here. All the bars I've seen that were broken or bent were previously involved in some form of accident, crash, or handling mishap. For metal, a dent will produce a stress riser, which will eventually tear the metal. For carbon fiber, construction practices seem to be the main culprit. In of the following image searches, I see only three broken aluminum handlebars. The rest are CF: https://www.google.com/search?q=broken+bicycle+handlebar&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=failed+bicycle+handlebar&tbm=isch Nothing he http://pardo.net/bike/pic/ Now that I think of it, I've seen more broken stems than broken handlebars. https://www.google.com/search?q=broken+bicycle+stem&tbm=isch My guess(tm) is that the stem is weaker than the handlebar. In a carsh, the weaker stem then sacrifices itself to protect the handlebar. Aluminum and steel handlebars also have some flex, which gives a less tiring ride. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#70
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handlebar
On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 14:23:08 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
wrote: On Sunday, January 14, 2018 at 7:01:32 PM UTC, Jeff Liebermann wrote: Ferro-chrome ore (which contains about 50-75% chromium), sells for $2.80/kg (Oct 2017 prices). http://www.infomine.com/investment/metal-prices/ferro-chrome/ while iron ore runs about $0.30/kg. http://www.infomine.com/investment/metal-prices/iron-ore-fines/ Very roughly, that would make 20% Chromium stainless cost about $5.00/kg, while a simple high carbon steel, would be about 1/10th the prices of stainless. Wrong viewpoint, I think, Jeff. Please note the "Very roughly" prefix, which acts as repudiation of responsibility and disclaimer should I have screwed up the math. In this case, I totally ignored any material or labor costs incurred beyond the base materials. I also lacked a usable price comparison between finished frames in steel and high strength stainless steel. Observably bikes in bicycle-type butted tubes of stainless steel don't cost ten or however many times as much as a bike in other alloys of steel made to the same pattern by the same maker. True. Please change "would be about 1/10th the price of stainless" to "would be about 1/10th the materials cost of stainless". I went into this when I was trying to get my smalltube frame design built, when I discovered that stainless could in fact be a cheap option compared to some aeronautics-grade mild steels. Hmmm... sounds like a good idea. You could then advertise the small diameter tubing as "low aerodynamic drag". Incidentally, I've recently taken up knife sharpening, which led me to knife making. That has forced me to do some reading on metallurgy, heat treating, machining practices, etc. At this point, it's all a big muddle to me, but I'm slowing beginning to sort things out. Oddly, much has changed in the last half century. (1) There was a third maker of stainless tube sets for bicycles just starting up about ten, twelve years ago when I was taking an interest. I don't know whether they ever made much of a mark. Ummm... Columbus XCr perhaps? http://www.columbustubi.com/eng/3_3.htm The only thing about German steel bike I don't like is their virtue-signalling, Gaia butt-kissing, waterbased paint, though in practice it has worked well for my bikes, which live in a heated space and hardly ever see loose gravel. I like hard, chip resistant, oven-baked paints. The ecologically correct replacement for VoC (volatile organic chemicals) is power coating the bicycle frame: https://www.missionbicycle.com/blog/oversimplified-powder-coat-vs-paint Powder coating can handle considerable abuse. For small parts, you can melt the power in a toaster oven. The hardware and powder are commonly available: https://www.eastwood.com/hotcoat-powder-coating.html https://www.harborfreight.com/10-30-psi-powder-coating-system-94244.html Once a hotrodder, always a Duco-lover. Yeah, I miss lacquer paints. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacquer#Nitrocellulose_lacquers However, acrylic enamel is a tolerable auto paint substitute, -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
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