Is Lance Armstrong a great doper or the greatest doper ever?

I am watching the redux on Versus and just keeping ticking off the
names of the "heads of state" that were later found positive for
doping in one form or another.

It boils down to one question; IS it possible for an undoped rider to
beat doped riders?

Anyone knowing anything knows it isn't. Not at this level.

The for those that want to believe that Lance is clean comes forth a
level of rationalizing that usually includes that the peloton is clean
and the UCI 'sees and knows all'.

So my question is, is there anyone out there (except citizens of Salt
Lake City) that believes Lance is clean and the peleton is doped?

Or more likely, everyone's doping but some (better drugs, doctors and
training) are better at it.

Versus just showed stage 15 of 2003

1st - Armstrong
2nd - Mayo - doper - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iban_Mayo
3rd - Ullrich - doper - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Ullrich
5th - Moreau - doper - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christophe_Moreau

Need anyone go on? Look at this ****ing list of caught cycling
dopers. (CAUGHT that is)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ses_in_cycling

"Anton Berlin" wrote in message
...
I am watching the redux on Versus and just keeping ticking off the
names of the "heads of state" that were later found positive for
doping in one form or another.

It boils down to one question; IS it possible for an undoped rider to
beat doped riders?

Sure...

Average troll, but I'll post this just in time again for the TDF...

There are basically three slices to Lance's pie, as to why Lance was better
then the rest of the pack including those EPO heads.



Slice one - Lance having the right genes as a superb athlete and recovery
skills, as noted with his ability to eliminate lactic acid, or not to build
it as fast as others. Also his loss of weight coming back and climbing with
much less weight while riding as strong as before cancer.



Slice two - His superb training under Chris Carmichael, but Lance gets the
credit for doing the work.



Slice three - Technology that no one else had access to with Nike and Trek.
Lance being also a fanatic for innovation and staying on the bleeding edge.
In Lances case, Technology was a big factor for years.



All there of these add up to much more time and staying in the game, for
years, much more so then EPO doped riders could last. No doped EPO rider
could last 7 years at the highest level. He would be dead before ever
winning 7 tours, or caught. If Lance doped, then someone needs to explain
how he never was caught, since he was the most tested rider ever in history,
and you can bet they were gunning for him always. Even the French tried to
get him with their old lab urine samples when they couldn't get him with
current tests during all those tours.



Read the Science of Lance and think about it...

These are some notes from the Science of Lance , it has some excellent data
points.

Lance team looked at every aspect of cycling to make their team better.
They made the bikes as light, strong and as safe as they could. They looked
at not only the riders and the team as a whole but all the nuts and bolts,
frames, helmets, even the tires and the jerseys are specially made. The
tires are aged six years just for Lance, and the jerseys are made of special
materials to shave off resistance, drag. Lances F1 team represents the best
minds from technology, sports physiology, statistical analysis and
aerodynamics.

Calculations take into considerations the grade of the climb, the density
of the air, the weight of the rider and the rolling resistance of the
wheels. Lance takes an active role in examining every detail. Everything is
tested in wind tunnel from frames, body position, helmets, clothes, even the
shoes. 2\3 of the drag comes off the body, 1\3 comes off the bike. Clothes
are lighter somewhere on the average of 150 grams, and with materials used
to cut drag, claims are made that minutes could be saved on a stage and
as much as five minutes on the final GC. Lances training season adds up
to as many miles as riding nearly halfway around the globe.

Lance's coach Johan is one of the smartest tacticians that ever rode the
tour and he speaks six languages, which allows him to coach a multi national
team like Discovery, even though really it's an American team. According to
Lance Johan has almost never been wrong about his judgments of riders when
they will crack in a tour stage, and can even predict it to the day.

At 14 years old, Lance was already better then all the top tri-athletes.
Lance was the youngest world road champion ever at the age of 21.
Lances heart can pump 9 gallons of blood per minute at maximum heart rate,
and that heart rate can reach an above average speed of 200 beats per
minute.
The average heart can only pump 5 gallons per minute. This makes Lances
heart a third more effective then an average mans heart.

He was national champion and world champion before cancer. After
Cancer he lost 20 pounds so his power to weight ratio went up by 10 percent,
which is huge on the climbs.

Lance choose a cancer treatment that spared his lungs. Lance VO2 max test
was some of highest numbers for cyclists tested at the labs, and his lungs
extract far more oxygen then the average person. An impressive 83
milliliters of oxygen for every kilogram of body weight. He generates 500
watts of power at peak performance. An average healthy 20 year old extracts
a mere 45 milliliters of oxygen and generates 250 watts of power.

Lances lungs are twice as efficient as the average racer. Lance is a
physiological
freak since for reasons unknown to science, Lances muscles built up much
less lactic acid then the average rider and his body eliminates that lactic
acid much more efficiently. When he exceeds his aerobic capacity on like a
sprint to the finish Lance maintains full power longer then his rivals. The
toughest battles take place where the air is thinnest so to increase his
oxygen carrying capacity Lance trains and recovers at attitude. Lance
doesn't appear to have a drop in his oxygen uptake ability as he climbs up
at attitude higher and higher.

Lance's science bears out that all his genetic advantages combined with the
F1 team adds up to much more time then cheating by skirting controls,
substances and such. Lance is one of the most drug tested athletes on the
planet and he has never failed a test. Lances climbing frames weight about
as much as a paperback book and are extremely stiff.

I remember in the video called A Sunday in Hell when Merckx was always f
iddling with his bike constantly adjusting the seat or the bars. Lance is
also
known to always be looking for a millimeter of change to make a difference.
Bikes are tested both in real and virtual wind tunnels. With the help of AMD
computers, frames and parts could be tested in virtual wind tunnels.
Colors are used to simulate high and low pressure areas which allow for
changes to be made and then finally tested in a real wind tunnel. Lance
likes
lightness and stiffness because this translates into more pedal power
being transferred to the road.

Lances tires are aged in a private cellar for six years before they are
really for the Tour. Lances team time trail was the fastest in history
averaging
37 mph. Lances climbing bike was 100 grams lighter then previously giving
Lance a new advantage. Lance has changed the sport to bring more technology
and more precise training to the tour and has set the benchmark for
preparation to execution, and every possible related aspect of racing from
technology, training and equipment to make a champion. Giro, Trek, came
together for the first time to make Lance and team discovery go even faster.
Lance is very good at cultivating information and getting it from different
sources. The best companies in the cycling business came together and pulled
their resources for Lance and it has never been done before. The main goal
was to work together to make Lance faster in the time trial.

Allied Aerospace in San Diego was used for wind tunnels tests. The same
technology for aircraft was applied to the bikes. Technology collected over
the last few years was brought to the whole team. Ekimov time trail position
was actually always quite good and needed little adjustments after all these
years. Every year Trek has looked at ways to improve Lances equipment and
bikes. This year's TT bar for Lance was half as light as last year's bar.

The design of the bar reminds me of a tiny stealth aircraft, black and all.
Lances TT bike is different then team TT bikes because it is designed to go
in a straight line very quickly without any other bikes near it. Team TT
bikes were designed differently with more agility. The Madon SL was
created for the best climbers and is 100 grams lighter then TT bike. Knowing
you bike is 100 grams lighter is also a psychological difference in the
riders frame of mind. Lance gives the thumbs up or down for products and
Giro and Trek often rebuild products to meet Lances expectations.

Chris Carmichael is Lances manager, and his motivator. Chris job is to add
the human touch to the F1 team. Chris tracks Lances training progress in
Colorado. Chris tested Lances VO2 level at 80 which is very high, one of the
highest tests recorded for a cyclist. Also Lance is tested for lactate
threshold test at Colorado Springs. This measures the ability to work
through the muscle burn and Lances threshold is very high. At Chris's camp
he says to imagine the road is on fire like hot coals. Instead of pulling up
from the down stroke, imagine the bottom of the pedal stroke is hot, and you
want to get your foot away from there as quick as possible. Pulling back
over the top instead of pulling up. Lance has made a lot of improvements to
the pedal strokes. Lance has made a 10 percent improvement in his pedal
stoke from 1992 to 1999. His high cadence on the climbs is one, most
notably.

Nike has worked with Lance for four years. Lance cycling clothes for 2005 is
the best ever, a hodgepodge of specially designed materials to reduce drag
and is better then any riders in the tour. Nike offered to trim 200 grams
off of Lances TT suit which they say would amount to 45 seconds quicker in
the TT. The swift suit was revealed at the Tour this year. Four different
fabrics were engineered and added to reduce the drag in the exact spots
Lance needed it.

The dimples on a golf ball which are used to add
aerodynamics were also applied to the jerseys to reduce drag in just the
right places. Seams were removed to reduce drag and with the all the high
and low pressure zones adjusted with the right fabrics savings of 2
kilometers per hour was added. The Giro helmet is no longer a two piece
shell but only one molded piece, the fastest helmet in the world. The time
savings with this new helmet over the old helmet was 23 seconds. The gloves
were also designed similar to the swift suit for aerodynamics. The glove is
a gauntlet fit into the suit so as to be seamless. The aerodynamics of Nike
shoes for Lance are a special secret, but it has an extremely hard bottom
plate, carbon fiber.

Lance has always told Nike and Trek to push every year for better
improvements as long as it is legal within the rules. According to the F1
team, the tunnel tests which brings together all the best technology from
Giro, Trek, etc. added up to three or four minutes a stage. This allows a
rider like Lance in his late years to save his energy for the end of the
tour,
which was evident in his TT victory. Lance won the tour by a wide
margin and was still fresh which is quite remarkable.

Lance brought honor and recognition to the sport as well as technology,
training and redefined team racing. He sure did a hell of a lot for the
sport
here in America, and I think historians will be kind to him.

Precisely the rationalizing neccesary.

"GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote in message
...

Lance brought honor and recognition to the sport as well as technology,
training and redefined team racing. He sure did a hell of a lot for the
sport here in America, and I think historians will be kind to him.

How dare you not believe someone who wants to bring Lance down?

A very interesting point of view. I hung out with real hardcore
cycling fans in Stavelot Belgium during the Liege-Bastogne-Liege race
and to a person they think the return is "good for the peloton" They
also seem to think the a 37 year old man is not going to be able to
sustain for a TDF win. These folks know cycling pretty well and it is
somewhat accepted that their heroes might have "help".

Have they got Bob Roll cleaned up and presentable?

On Jun 28, 6:51*pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:

Slice two - His superb training under Chris Carmichael, but Lance gets the
credit for doing the work.

Verbose dumbass -

You don't really think that Carmichael is his coach, do you?

-rj

On Sun, 28 Jun 2009 16:04:59 -0700 (PDT), Anton Berlin
wrote:

Versus just showed stage 15 of 2003

1st - Armstrong
2nd - Mayo - doper - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iban_Mayo
3rd - Ullrich - doper - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Ullrich
5th - Moreau - doper - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christophe_Moreau

Need anyone go on? Look at this ****ing list of caught cycling
dopers. (CAUGHT that is)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ses_in_cycling

It's quite possible that this statement made by Lance is true.

"I never used illegal doping products".

You can castigate someone who finds ways to improve performance, using
nutrients, supplements, even legal pharmaceuticals. You can only find
fault if they break the existent rules. Strategy, tactics, shaving
weight from the equipment, weighing every ounce of food to maximize
body weight and reduce body fat, maximizing the hydration and food
taken in on the ride are all legal ways to get an edge. Training at
altitude, riding the mountain stages ahead of time, sleeping in oxygen
tents - all currently permitted.

Basically, as long as the rules existing at the time are not broken,
you can do it.

At one time the Tour was thinking about making oxygen tents illegal.
But that only takes effect once the rule is in place. Prior to the
rule it's OK. After the rule it's cheating. Some like to say getting
an advantage is cheating - it's not. If you have the money you can
commission scientists to find every possible legal advantage. Some
teams can afford this, some may not.

It's entirely possible that a rider =not= using illegal doping
products, but using every other possible advantage could win over
those taking conventional illegal doping products.

On Sun, 28 Jun 2009 21:14:00 -0400, wrote:

You can castigate someone who finds ways to improve performance, using
nutrients, supplements, even legal pharmaceuticals

Correction:
You can -not- castigate someone who finds ways to improve performance,
using nutrients, supplements, even legal pharmaceuticals...

Anton Berlin wrote:
Precisely the rationalizing neccesary.


All he's said is that he doesn't believe doping gave LA a unique
advantage. You know all the guys he was racing against were doping, what
basis do you have for believing Armstrong's dope was better than, say,
Ullrich's?