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Chain Lube?



 
 
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  #21  
Old November 13th 18, 11:50 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
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Posts: 306
Default Chain Lube?

On Tue, 13 Nov 2018 08:26:32 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Tue, 13 Nov 2018 14:11:38 +0700, John B. slocomb
wrote:

If one is lubricating a clean chain


"Clean Chain" is an oxymoron.

- I say that as I've seen chains
so dirty that you'd have needed a shovel to clean them - I'm fairly
sure that the mix of naphtha and the actual lubricants will enter the
pin and roller area.


Not in the quantities usually applied to a chain. That's why
industrial chains, such as on conveyor belts have brush oilers:
https://www.zoro.com/lubesite-chain-oiler-flat-brush-8-oz-fb-8/i/G1530903/
I probably would try one on my bicycle except that it's difficult to
contrive a mounting arrangement that follows the chain line as I shift
through the gears. I do have a paper design for a derailleur with a
built in lubricator, but it's not practical. It sticks out even
further than the derailleur and will probably be damaged if it hits
something.

Maybe something like this:
https://felixwong.com/2014/09/z-chain-oiler-review/

Also, I wanted to try more than one brush oiler so that I can wash,
rinse, dry, and lube as I ride using some kind of shifting mechanism
to switch from solvents to the appropriate oil for riding conditions.

At least, another lubricant that I used for a
number of years - a mix of petroleum lubricants and a light carrier
which evaporated leaving a greasy residue - did. Unless, that is, one
could run an unlubricated chain for several years. :-)


If the chain is sloppy and loose, oil smeared on the chain will
eventually arrive to the pin and sleeve. However, I doubt if grease
will do that. If the solvent carrier evaporates before the oil has
time to work its way into the mechanism, it will be too thick to move
and remain on the surface.


I guess that you didn't read that very well. I said "a mix of
petroleum lubricants and a light carrier which evaporated leaving a
greasy residue". Which part of "evaporated leaving a greasy residue"
did you miss.

As for the rest of your argument, I performed an actual experiment,
rather then just imagining a result. I took an older chain, cleaned it
in solvent with a final wash in MEK, allowed it to dry and then
lubricated it with the above mentioned lube, allowed that to dry and
then, using a chain tool, disassembled several links and yes, the lub
had penetrated the chain and was evident in the rollers and on the
pins. I subsequently did the same thing using my chain wax formula -
much the same as James's mix - and the same thing happened. The hot
wax did penetrate the links

What I would like to try is a chain where the pin or sleeve have a
spiral groove cut along its length to "pump" oil through the bearing.
Just keep adding oil to lubricate. When it's time to clean the chain,
just remove the chain, reverse the direction of rotation, and the
accumulated grease and crud will be pushed out the direction it
arrived.


Why bother? A constant drip chain oiler will keep the chain lubricated
and clean without going to all sorts of complicated rigmarole.

cheers,

John B.



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  #22  
Old November 13th 18, 11:57 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
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Posts: 306
Default Chain Lube?

On Tue, 13 Nov 2018 12:28:10 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Tuesday, November 13, 2018 at 1:38:08 PM UTC-5, sms wrote:

About 45 years ago I tried molybdenum disulfide on my bicycle chain. It
didn't work well. The aerosol nozzle kept clogging, and it was messy.

The particles are small enough that you don't have the same problem that
you do with wax.


Hmm. The "problem" people really have with wax is that it produces
longer chain life and less friction loss than any other known lubricant. It's also far cleaner, keeping one's bike, leg, pants etc.
clean. In other words, those are not problems, they are great
benefits.

The only real problem is that the lubrication process takes a little
longer (maybe ten minutes if done on the bike, as opposed to a hot
dip method).

"sms" is probably referring to his theoretical idea that the wax
doesn't penetrate and lubricate as well. But lab tests as well as
tons of anecdotal evidence show that his ideas are flat out wrong.
Again.

- Frank Krygowski


As I mentioned on another post I actually went to the trouble of
testing the hot bath wax lubrication of a chain by lubing it and then
disassembling the chain for inspection and contrary to SMS's theories
the wax does penetrate the chain rollers.

Fact is stranger then fiction "-)
cheers,

John B.



  #23  
Old November 14th 18, 05:54 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
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Posts: 5,782
Default Chain Lube?

On 14/11/18 9:50 am, John B. slocomb wrote:


As for the rest of your argument, I performed an actual experiment,
rather then just imagining a result. I took an older chain, cleaned it
in solvent with a final wash in MEK, allowed it to dry and then
lubricated it with the above mentioned lube, allowed that to dry and
then, using a chain tool, disassembled several links and yes, the lub
had penetrated the chain and was evident in the rollers and on the
pins. I subsequently did the same thing using my chain wax formula -
much the same as James's mix - and the same thing happened. The hot
wax did penetrate the links


I often put a chain in hot wax/oil with the quick link put together, so
I don't lose it in the mix. Of course I have to undo it to reinstall
the chain on my bicycle, at which point I notice the wax/oil has
penetrated the pins of the quick link very well, so I conclude that it
has penetrated all the other pins and rollers very well too.

--
JS
  #24  
Old November 14th 18, 07:48 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,782
Default Chain Lube?

On 14/11/18 3:54 pm, James wrote:
On 14/11/18 9:50 am, John B. slocomb wrote:


As for the rest of your argument, I performed an actual experiment,
rather then just imagining a result. I took an older chain, cleaned it
in solvent with a final wash in MEK, allowed it to dry and then
lubricated it with the above mentioned lube, allowed that to dry and
then, using a chain tool, disassembled several links and yes, the lub
had penetrated the chain and was evident in the rollers and on the
pins. I subsequently did the same thing using my chain wax formula -
much the same as James's mix - and the same thing happened. The hot
wax did penetrate the links


I often put a chain in hot wax/oil with the quick link put together, so
I don't lose it in the mix.* Of course I have to undo it to reinstall
the chain on my bicycle, at which point I notice the wax/oil has
penetrated the pins of the quick link very well, so I conclude that it
has penetrated all the other pins and rollers very well too.


In addition, the wax/oil mix doesn't rely on a carrier that evaporates
and only leaves a very small amount of lubricant behind. The wax/oil
mix is all lubricant, so there is much more of the good stuff in the
chain than you could ever get with a spray on and evaporate lube.

--
JS
  #25  
Old November 14th 18, 08:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
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Posts: 306
Default Chain Lube?

On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 15:54:13 +1100, James
wrote:

On 14/11/18 9:50 am, John B. slocomb wrote:


As for the rest of your argument, I performed an actual experiment,
rather then just imagining a result. I took an older chain, cleaned it
in solvent with a final wash in MEK, allowed it to dry and then
lubricated it with the above mentioned lube, allowed that to dry and
then, using a chain tool, disassembled several links and yes, the lub
had penetrated the chain and was evident in the rollers and on the
pins. I subsequently did the same thing using my chain wax formula -
much the same as James's mix - and the same thing happened. The hot
wax did penetrate the links


I often put a chain in hot wax/oil with the quick link put together, so
I don't lose it in the mix. Of course I have to undo it to reinstall
the chain on my bicycle, at which point I notice the wax/oil has
penetrated the pins of the quick link very well, so I conclude that it
has penetrated all the other pins and rollers very well too.


I find it a bit enlightening that those who have use a wax chain lube
all say it works, while those who apparently have never tried it say
it doesn't work :-)

cheers,

John B.



  #26  
Old November 14th 18, 03:08 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 9,839
Default Chain Lube?

On 11/14/2018 1:06 AM, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 15:54:13 +1100, James
wrote:

On 14/11/18 9:50 am, John B. slocomb wrote:


As for the rest of your argument, I performed an actual experiment,
rather then just imagining a result. I took an older chain, cleaned it
in solvent with a final wash in MEK, allowed it to dry and then
lubricated it with the above mentioned lube, allowed that to dry and
then, using a chain tool, disassembled several links and yes, the lub
had penetrated the chain and was evident in the rollers and on the
pins. I subsequently did the same thing using my chain wax formula -
much the same as James's mix - and the same thing happened. The hot
wax did penetrate the links


I often put a chain in hot wax/oil with the quick link put together, so
I don't lose it in the mix. Of course I have to undo it to reinstall
the chain on my bicycle, at which point I notice the wax/oil has
penetrated the pins of the quick link very well, so I conclude that it
has penetrated all the other pins and rollers very well too.


I find it a bit enlightening that those who have use a wax chain lube
all say it works, while those who apparently have never tried it say
it doesn't work :-)



A common phenomenon. See also the ridiculous abuse sometimes
advised for a new leather saddle, usually from a guy who
doesn't ride one.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #27  
Old November 14th 18, 04:01 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 3,813
Default Chain Lube?

On Wednesday, November 14, 2018 at 9:08:31 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/14/2018 1:06 AM, John B. slocomb wrote:

Snipped
I find it a bit enlightening that those who have use a wax chain lube
all say it works, while those who apparently have never tried it say
it doesn't work :-)



A common phenomenon. See also the ridiculous abuse sometimes
advised for a new leather saddle, usually from a guy who
doesn't ride one.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Right, like when someone advises one to SOAK a new leather saddle in Neatsfoot Oil which I have been told by a few makers or horse saddles is a sure fire way to ruin a saddle. Apparently the Neatsfoot Oil breaks down the saddle leather thereby softening it but also causing it stretch quite a bit in use.

Cheers
  #28  
Old November 14th 18, 06:37 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 6,409
Default Chain Lube?

On 11/14/2018 9:08 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/14/2018 1:06 AM, John B. slocomb wrote:

I find it a bit enlightening that those who have use a wax chain lube
all say it works, while those who apparently have never tried it say
it doesn't work :-)


A common phenomenon. See also the ridiculous abuse sometimes advised for
a new leather saddle, usually from a guy who doesn't ride one.


BTW, one thing I noticed during our recent trip to Europe: Europeans
seem to use leather saddles far more than Americans do.

I'm not saying leather was the majority, but here in America it's
unusual for me to see a leather saddle on a utility bike or even an
enthusiast's bike. Especially in Basel, Switzerland and in Amsterdam, I
was spotting them all the time. And Amsterdam is not a very dry place.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #29  
Old November 14th 18, 06:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 3,813
Default Chain Lube?

On Wednesday, November 14, 2018 at 12:37:45 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/14/2018 9:08 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/14/2018 1:06 AM, John B. slocomb wrote:

I find it a bit enlightening that those who have use a wax chain lube
all say it works, while those who apparently have never tried it say
it doesn't work :-)


A common phenomenon. See also the ridiculous abuse sometimes advised for
a new leather saddle, usually from a guy who doesn't ride one.


BTW, one thing I noticed during our recent trip to Europe: Europeans
seem to use leather saddles far more than Americans do.

I'm not saying leather was the majority, but here in America it's
unusual for me to see a leather saddle on a utility bike or even an
enthusiast's bike. Especially in Basel, Switzerland and in Amsterdam, I
was spotting them all the time. And Amsterdam is not a very dry place.

--
- Frank Krygowski


I think a lot of North Americans are scared away from leather saddles by all the marketing hype that they're uncomfortable until broken in which according to that hype is a long time. Plus the hype about all the care a leather saddle needs. It's like the dread H****T thing = marketing hype convinces people that only those will work for them.

I have a couple of really old WRIGHTS all leather saddles and they are very comfortable and only require a bit of care. I keep the undersides well coated with genuine Dubbin and that seems to work wonders keeping them from soaking up water from wet roads. Of course fenders also go a very long way to keeping water off the underside of any saddle. However, some bicycles just don't have room for fenders.

Cheers
  #30  
Old November 14th 18, 07:36 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 3,483
Default Chain Lube?

On Wednesday, November 14, 2018 at 6:08:31 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/14/2018 1:06 AM, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 15:54:13 +1100, James
wrote:

On 14/11/18 9:50 am, John B. slocomb wrote:


As for the rest of your argument, I performed an actual experiment,
rather then just imagining a result. I took an older chain, cleaned it
in solvent with a final wash in MEK, allowed it to dry and then
lubricated it with the above mentioned lube, allowed that to dry and
then, using a chain tool, disassembled several links and yes, the lub
had penetrated the chain and was evident in the rollers and on the
pins. I subsequently did the same thing using my chain wax formula -
much the same as James's mix - and the same thing happened. The hot
wax did penetrate the links


I often put a chain in hot wax/oil with the quick link put together, so
I don't lose it in the mix. Of course I have to undo it to reinstall
the chain on my bicycle, at which point I notice the wax/oil has
penetrated the pins of the quick link very well, so I conclude that it
has penetrated all the other pins and rollers very well too.


I find it a bit enlightening that those who have use a wax chain lube
all say it works, while those who apparently have never tried it say
it doesn't work :-)



A common phenomenon. See also the ridiculous abuse sometimes
advised for a new leather saddle, usually from a guy who
doesn't ride one.


I've used both -- and think they suck. Hot wax is too much work as are leather saddles in a wet environment. My old Ideal 90 was growing mold-fur, and my Brooks was never comfortable. I was always a plastic saddle guy.

I might try wax again during the summer just to annoy myself, but I'm going to make it super-technical wax with PTFE and moly this-and-that. I might even try some race ski wax or something out of the ski box. I'll iron it on..

Maybe I'll go back to sew-ups! I bought a new turntable a while back, and I'm considering a steam-powered computer. As I approach retirement, I'm looking for things to occupy my time besides drinking. Here's something: https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4093/...c304ca8c38.jpg I never did figure out how to get the diamond pattern with Benotto tape.

Tonight I'm going to put reflective tape on my commuter -- some super-swanky red and white stuff.

-- Jay Beattie.


 




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