I am that out of date

Am Wed, 21 Apr 2021 17:00:44 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
:

On 4/21/2021 4:10 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Wed, 21 Apr 2021 13:05:34 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
:

On 4/21/2021 5:34 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 4:09:58 AM UTC-5, Tosspot wrote:
On 17/04/2021 17:53, Ralph Barone wrote:

Don’t forget the chromed steel rims. Nobody appears to be lamenting the
demise of chromed steel rims.
In the ****ed up world of retro bikes I have seen a few at work with
chromed steel rims. Now those don't get ridden in the rain or I
wouldn't be seeing them!

O RLY? From 1992 to 1995 I rode my Sparta Cornwall bike to work, every
single working day, around the year.
https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/bild12a.jpg
Indeed, these are chromed steel rims. Any idea why there wasn't any
problem with that, huh?

Sorry about the picture quality, that picture was taken using an Apple
QickTake camera, in 1995.




Imho, the two biggest advancements to modern cycling, the alloy rim and
bike lights. Hand up who remembers cycling home in the dark on a rainy
night? NiCads suck.

Sure. So do lead/acid batteries, for example that gray piece marked
"friwo" in the picture linked below.
https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/technik/komponenten/licht/lichtc1.jpg/image_preview


Or bottle dynamos, like that one. It sucked.
https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/technik/komponenten/licht/P1050501a.JPG/view.html

But somehow, most of this stuff worked good enough to server my well for
many years.
A few expensive parts did not. For example that one:
https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/such/DSC04651.jpg. Do you know what it
is?





I'm not sure how far back "modern" cycling goes, but I would add gearing to the biggest advancement category. Front and rear derailleurs and a means to shift into the various rear cogs and/or chainrings.

I agree. I've read old tales of touring with three or four speed hub
gears. Walking up any significant climb was standard procedure.

People still do that nowadays. Bicycles got lighter with alloy
components, rims, frames, handlebar, this made it easier to push.

I cycled to school on a heavy Rabeneick bicycle, using a 3 speed hub
(Fichtel&Sachs Torpedo). Riding home (6%, about 120 m up) wasn't easy.
But pushing that bike would have been even more strenous.


Before derailleur gearing, I think pneumatic tires were the biggest
advancement.

What about better brakes?


Since derailleur gearing I think we've been chasing ever
tinier marginal improvements.

Sure. But some of those marginal improvements are nice, nevertheless.


The most modern "improvements" are very underwhelming. We're now down to
"Ooh, I don't have to move my finger as far to get a gear change! And it
cost me only a couple thousand dollars extra!"

My current custom made road bike, built in in 2010, has Shimano st-6703
Ultegra Dual Control Shifters. I like it. They aren't without fault,
the mechanics are somewhat fragile, changing gear wires is somewhat
difficult, but overall, these offer significant benefits compared to
downtube shifters. I still have my old read bike, a Panasonic PR3000
bought in 1995
https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/pict2439.jpg/download and keep
it as a backup and for indoor training, but I prefer to ride the newer
bike. It wasn't that expensive, either, about EUR 1400 (~ $1700) in
2010. One of my sons bought a similar bike less than a year ago for even
less money.


If i was asked to list improvements, I'd name hub dynamos, led lights
with free-form reflectors, clipless pedals (esp. SPD), plus all those
tiny improvements which aren't really exiting and less observable -
better brake pads, better alloy, better tires, better handlebar tape,
...

Are those drum brakes?

Sparta Cornwall

Front: Fichtel&Sachs drum brake,
Back: Pentasport coaster brake hub.



--
Wir danken für die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen

On 4/21/2021 4:59 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, April 21, 2021 at 1:05:38 p.m. UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/21/2021 5:34 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 4:09:58 AM UTC-5, Tosspot wrote:
On 17/04/2021 17:53, Ralph Barone wrote:

Don’t forget the chromed steel rims. Nobody appears to be lamenting the
demise of chromed steel rims.
In the ****ed up world of retro bikes I have seen a few at work with
chromed steel rims. Now those don't get ridden in the rain or I
wouldn't be seeing them!

Imho, the two biggest advancements to modern cycling, the alloy rim and
bike lights. Hand up who remembers cycling home in the dark on a rainy
night? NiCads suck.


I'm not sure how far back "modern" cycling goes, but I would add gearing to the biggest advancement category. Front and rear derailleurs and a means to shift into the various rear cogs and/or chainrings.
I agree. I've read old tales of touring with three or four speed hub
gears. Walking up any significant climb was standard procedure.

Before derailleur gearing, I think pneumatic tires were the biggest
advancement. Since derailleur gearing I think we've been chasing ever
tinier marginal improvements.

The most modern "improvements" are very underwhelming. We're now down to
"Ooh, I don't have to move my finger as far to get a gear change! And it
cost me only a couple thousand dollars extra!"

--
- Frank Krygowski

I think that for the average bicyclist, one of the biggest advances in bicycling components was reliable index shifting.Since then just about anyone could get on a well st up bike and make effortless and precise gear changes. Doesn't matter if those index shifters were on the downtube or handlebar, they were a blessing for many.

That's probably a good point, and a good addition to the list I posted.

Part of the difference in judgment regarding the value of index shifting
may be the equipment choice a person used just prior to indexing. I
remember well a fast training ride I attended, a bunch of younger guys
mostly running Campy Records or something similar. I watched a couple
grinding away trying for a successful shift while I had no trouble.

I had inexpensive slant parallelogram SunTour stuff, 5 cogs. (Still do
on that bike.) They looked down on my equipment, but missing a shift was
really rare for me.

So for me, Shimano SIS was underwhelming. For others it was probably
world changing.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, April 21, 2021 at 2:34:19 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 4:09:58 AM UTC-5, Tosspot wrote:
On 17/04/2021 17:53, Ralph Barone wrote:

Don’t forget the chromed steel rims. Nobody appears to be lamenting the
demise of chromed steel rims.
In the ****ed up world of retro bikes I have seen a few at work with
chromed steel rims. Now those don't get ridden in the rain or I
wouldn't be seeing them!

Imho, the two biggest advancements to modern cycling, the alloy rim and
bike lights. Hand up who remembers cycling home in the dark on a rainy
night? NiCads suck.

I'm not sure how far back "modern" cycling goes, but I would add gearing to the biggest advancement category. Front and rear derailleurs and a means to shift into the various rear cogs and/or chainrings.
I just *know* someone here will have used an acetylene carbide light :-(
In the latest VeloNews which is nothing like the past VeloNews, They have a picture of Freddy Martins with his bike. Now Freddy is only a couple of years younger than me but that bike looks like something that they replaced a High Wheeler with.

On Wednesday, April 21, 2021 at 10:05:38 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/21/2021 5:34 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 4:09:58 AM UTC-5, Tosspot wrote:
On 17/04/2021 17:53, Ralph Barone wrote:

Don’t forget the chromed steel rims. Nobody appears to be lamenting the
demise of chromed steel rims.
In the ****ed up world of retro bikes I have seen a few at work with
chromed steel rims. Now those don't get ridden in the rain or I
wouldn't be seeing them!

Imho, the two biggest advancements to modern cycling, the alloy rim and
bike lights. Hand up who remembers cycling home in the dark on a rainy
night? NiCads suck.


I'm not sure how far back "modern" cycling goes, but I would add gearing to the biggest advancement category. Front and rear derailleurs and a means to shift into the various rear cogs and/or chainrings.
I agree. I've read old tales of touring with three or four speed hub
gears. Walking up any significant climb was standard procedure.

Before derailleur gearing, I think pneumatic tires were the biggest
advancement. Since derailleur gearing I think we've been chasing ever
tinier marginal improvements.

The most modern "improvements" are very underwhelming. We're now down to
"Ooh, I don't have to move my finger as far to get a gear change! And it
cost me only a couple thousand dollars extra!"

A couple of weeks ago I was approaching an overpass over the local Freeway. There were three cyclists in front of me and I usually make no effort to overtake people like that because I do not want to make people feel inadequate. But I started closing down on them so rapidly and since the traffic lane was empty which was usual I decided to idle past them. Just as the overpass got "steep" ( about 4%) They all stepped off of their bikes so elegantly that it was plain that they were quite practiced at this. I don't remember what sort of bikes they were but they were not cheap. And they were all three Asians of some sort. Then I had to kick it in gear because a car was approaching at the usual 15 mph over the limit.

On Wednesday, April 21, 2021 at 2:26:01 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/21/2021 4:59 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, April 21, 2021 at 1:05:38 p.m. UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/21/2021 5:34 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 4:09:58 AM UTC-5, Tosspot wrote:
On 17/04/2021 17:53, Ralph Barone wrote:

Don’t forget the chromed steel rims. Nobody appears to be lamenting the
demise of chromed steel rims.
In the ****ed up world of retro bikes I have seen a few at work with
chromed steel rims. Now those don't get ridden in the rain or I
wouldn't be seeing them!

Imho, the two biggest advancements to modern cycling, the alloy rim and
bike lights. Hand up who remembers cycling home in the dark on a rainy
night? NiCads suck.


I'm not sure how far back "modern" cycling goes, but I would add gearing to the biggest advancement category. Front and rear derailleurs and a means to shift into the various rear cogs and/or chainrings.
I agree. I've read old tales of touring with three or four speed hub
gears. Walking up any significant climb was standard procedure.

Before derailleur gearing, I think pneumatic tires were the biggest
advancement. Since derailleur gearing I think we've been chasing ever
tinier marginal improvements.

The most modern "improvements" are very underwhelming. We're now down to
"Ooh, I don't have to move my finger as far to get a gear change! And it
cost me only a couple thousand dollars extra!"

--
- Frank Krygowski

I think that for the average bicyclist, one of the biggest advances in bicycling components was reliable index shifting.Since then just about anyone could get on a well st up bike and make effortless and precise gear changes. Doesn't matter if those index shifters were on the downtube or handlebar, they were a blessing for many.
That's probably a good point, and a good addition to the list I posted.

Part of the difference in judgment regarding the value of index shifting
may be the equipment choice a person used just prior to indexing. I
remember well a fast training ride I attended, a bunch of younger guys
mostly running Campy Records or something similar. I watched a couple
grinding away trying for a successful shift while I had no trouble.

I had inexpensive slant parallelogram SunTour stuff, 5 cogs. (Still do
on that bike.) They looked down on my equipment, but missing a shift was
really rare for me.

So for me, Shimano SIS was underwhelming. For others it was probably
world changing.

Before index shifting we could almost thow it into the proper spot. Since there were only 5 gears it wasn't all that hard. And then AFTER you got to a place where your attention wasn't required elsewhere you could fine-tune it.

On 4/21/2021 3:10 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Wed, 21 Apr 2021 13:05:34 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
:

On 4/21/2021 5:34 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 4:09:58 AM UTC-5, Tosspot wrote:
On 17/04/2021 17:53, Ralph Barone wrote:

Don’t forget the chromed steel rims. Nobody appears to be lamenting the
demise of chromed steel rims.
In the ****ed up world of retro bikes I have seen a few at work with
chromed steel rims. Now those don't get ridden in the rain or I
wouldn't be seeing them!

O RLY? From 1992 to 1995 I rode my Sparta Cornwall bike to work, every
single working day, around the year.
https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/bild12a.jpg
Indeed, these are chromed steel rims. Any idea why there wasn't any
problem with that, huh?

Sorry about the picture quality, that picture was taken using an Apple
QickTake camera, in 1995.




Imho, the two biggest advancements to modern cycling, the alloy rim and
bike lights. Hand up who remembers cycling home in the dark on a rainy
night? NiCads suck.

Sure. So do lead/acid batteries, for example that gray piece marked
"friwo" in the picture linked below.
https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/technik/komponenten/licht/lichtc1.jpg/image_preview


Or bottle dynamos, like that one. It sucked.
https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/technik/komponenten/licht/P1050501a.JPG/view.html

But somehow, most of this stuff worked good enough to server my well for
many years.
A few expensive parts did not. For example that one:
https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/such/DSC04651.jpg. Do you know what it
is?





I'm not sure how far back "modern" cycling goes, but I would add gearing to the biggest advancement category. Front and rear derailleurs and a means to shift into the various rear cogs and/or chainrings.

I agree. I've read old tales of touring with three or four speed hub
gears. Walking up any significant climb was standard procedure.

People still do that nowadays. Bicycles got lighter with alloy
components, rims, frames, handlebar, this made it easier to push.

I cycled to school on a heavy Rabeneick bicycle, using a 3 speed hub
(Fichtel&Sachs Torpedo). Riding home (6%, about 120 m up) wasn't easy.
But pushing that bike would have been even more strenous.


Before derailleur gearing, I think pneumatic tires were the biggest
advancement.

What about better brakes?


Since derailleur gearing I think we've been chasing ever
tinier marginal improvements.

Sure. But some of those marginal improvements are nice, nevertheless.


The most modern "improvements" are very underwhelming. We're now down to
"Ooh, I don't have to move my finger as far to get a gear change! And it
cost me only a couple thousand dollars extra!"

My current custom made road bike, built in in 2010, has Shimano st-6703
Ultegra Dual Control Shifters. I like it. They aren't without fault,
the mechanics are somewhat fragile, changing gear wires is somewhat
difficult, but overall, these offer significant benefits compared to
downtube shifters. I still have my old read bike, a Panasonic PR3000
bought in 1995
https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/pict2439.jpg/download and keep
it as a backup and for indoor training, but I prefer to ride the newer
bike. It wasn't that expensive, either, about EUR 1400 (~ $1700) in
2010. One of my sons bought a similar bike less than a year ago for even
less money.


If i was asked to list improvements, I'd name hub dynamos, led lights
with free-form reflectors, clipless pedals (esp. SPD), plus all those
tiny improvements which aren't really exiting and less observable -
better brake pads, better alloy, better tires, better handlebar tape,
...


"Do you know what it is?"
Roller dynamo, usually mounted behind the crank where they
wear quickly from road grit.

Is that a Sanyo or a Union or a Soubitez?


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 13:05:34 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/21/2021 5:34 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 4:09:58 AM UTC-5, Tosspot wrote:
On 17/04/2021 17:53, Ralph Barone wrote:

Don’t forget the chromed steel rims. Nobody appears to be lamenting the
demise of chromed steel rims.
In the ****ed up world of retro bikes I have seen a few at work with
chromed steel rims. Now those don't get ridden in the rain or I
wouldn't be seeing them!

Imho, the two biggest advancements to modern cycling, the alloy rim and
bike lights. Hand up who remembers cycling home in the dark on a rainy
night? NiCads suck.


I'm not sure how far back "modern" cycling goes, but I would add gearing to the biggest advancement category. Front and rear derailleurs and a means to shift into the various rear cogs and/or chainrings.

I agree. I've read old tales of touring with three or four speed hub
gears. Walking up any significant climb was standard procedure.

Before derailleur gearing, I think pneumatic tires were the biggest
advancement. Since derailleur gearing I think we've been chasing ever
tinier marginal improvements.

The most modern "improvements" are very underwhelming. We're now down to
"Ooh, I don't have to move my finger as far to get a gear change! And it
cost me only a couple thousand dollars extra!"

And Tom talking about thousands of dollars for a used, second hand,
bicycle? Is this a major reduction in the value of the dollar or is it
an indication of how wealthy the average USian has become?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 4/21/2021 7:01 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/21/2021 3:10 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Wed, 21 Apr 2021 13:05:34 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
:

On 4/21/2021 5:34 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 4:09:58 AM UTC-5, Tosspot wrote:
On 17/04/2021 17:53, Ralph Barone wrote:

Don’t forget the chromed steel rims. Nobody appears to be
lamenting the
demise of chromed steel rims.
In the ****ed up world of retro bikes I have seen a few at work with
chromed steel rims. Now those don't get ridden in the rain or I
wouldn't be seeing them!

O RLY? From 1992 to 1995 I rode my Sparta Cornwall bike to work, every
single working day, around the year.
https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/bild12a.jpg
Indeed, these are chromed steel rims. Any idea why there wasn't any
problem with that, huh?

Sorry about the picture quality, that picture was taken using an Apple
QickTake camera, in 1995.




Imho, the two biggest advancements to modern cycling, the alloy rim
and
bike lights. Hand up who remembers cycling home in the dark on a rainy
night? NiCads suck.

Sure. So do lead/acid batteries, for example that gray piece marked
"friwo" in the picture linked below.
https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/technik/komponenten/licht/lichtc1.jpg/image_preview



Or bottle dynamos, like that one. It sucked.
https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/technik/komponenten/licht/P1050501a.JPG/view.html


But somehow, most of this stuff worked good enough to server my well for
many years.
A few expensive parts did not. For example that one:
https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/such/DSC04651.jpg. Do you know what it
is?





I'm not sure how far back "modern" cycling goes, but I would add
gearing to the biggest advancement category.* Front and rear
derailleurs and a means to shift into the various rear cogs and/or
chainrings.

I agree. I've read old tales of touring with three or four speed hub
gears. Walking up any significant climb was standard procedure.

People still do that nowadays. Bicycles got lighter with alloy
components, rims, frames, handlebar, this made it easier to push.

I cycled to school on a heavy Rabeneick bicycle, using a 3 speed hub
(Fichtel&Sachs Torpedo). Riding home (6%, about 120 m up) wasn't easy.
But pushing that bike would have been even more strenous.


Before derailleur gearing, I think pneumatic tires were the biggest
advancement.

What about better brakes?


Since derailleur gearing I think we've been chasing ever
tinier marginal improvements.

Sure. But some of those marginal improvements are nice, nevertheless.


The most modern "improvements" are very underwhelming. We're now down to
"Ooh, I don't have to move my finger as far to get a gear change! And it
cost me only a couple thousand dollars extra!"

My current custom made road bike, built in in 2010, has Shimano st-6703
Ultegra Dual Control Shifters. I like it.* They aren't without fault,
the mechanics are somewhat fragile, changing gear wires is somewhat
difficult, but overall, these offer significant benefits compared to
downtube shifters.* I still have my old read bike, a Panasonic PR3000
bought in 1995
https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/pict2439.jpg/download and keep
it as a backup and for indoor training, but I prefer to ride the newer
bike.** It wasn't that expensive, either, about EUR 1400 (~ $1700) in
2010. One of my sons bought a similar bike less than a year ago for even
less money.


If i was asked to list improvements, I'd name hub dynamos, led lights
with free-form reflectors, clipless pedals (esp. SPD), plus all those
tiny improvements which aren't really exiting and less observable -
better brake pads, better alloy, better tires, better handlebar tape,
...


"Do you know what it is?"
Roller dynamo, usually mounted behind the crank where they wear quickly
from road grit.

Is that a Sanyo or a Union or a Soubitez?

My guess is Sanyo. There's one on one of my wife's bikes now. It's fine
for her occasional use.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, April 21, 2021 at 5:18:31 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/21/2021 7:09 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 13:05:34 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:


Before derailleur gearing, I think pneumatic tires were the biggest
advancement. Since derailleur gearing I think we've been chasing ever
tinier marginal improvements.

The most modern "improvements" are very underwhelming. We're now down to
"Ooh, I don't have to move my finger as far to get a gear change! And it
cost me only a couple thousand dollars extra!"

And Tom talking about thousands of dollars for a used, second hand,
bicycle? Is this a major reduction in the value of the dollar or is it
an indication of how wealthy the average USian has become?
I think it's mostly the latter. Despite some true poverty and despite
certain individuals' whining, prosperity in the U.S. is probably higher
than ever. I was recently talking to a friend about our skills in fixing
things. That's out of fashion. Why bother? Just buy a new one!

I think about my music-loving father. He must have been in his 50s when
he splurged on a stereo radio. I've got six stereo sets sprinkled around
the house. I just spent a few hours today organizing may collection of
hundreds of CDs.

What? CDs? Why don't you listen to 78 LPs? Fashion is a powerful thing.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 4/21/2021 8:32 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, April 21, 2021 at 5:18:31 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/21/2021 7:09 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 13:05:34 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:


Before derailleur gearing, I think pneumatic tires were the biggest
advancement. Since derailleur gearing I think we've been chasing ever
tinier marginal improvements.

The most modern "improvements" are very underwhelming. We're now down to
"Ooh, I don't have to move my finger as far to get a gear change! And it
cost me only a couple thousand dollars extra!"

And Tom talking about thousands of dollars for a used, second hand,
bicycle? Is this a major reduction in the value of the dollar or is it
an indication of how wealthy the average USian has become?
I think it's mostly the latter. Despite some true poverty and despite
certain individuals' whining, prosperity in the U.S. is probably higher
than ever. I was recently talking to a friend about our skills in fixing
things. That's out of fashion. Why bother? Just buy a new one!

I think about my music-loving father. He must have been in his 50s when
he splurged on a stereo radio. I've got six stereo sets sprinkled around
the house. I just spent a few hours today organizing may collection of
hundreds of CDs.

What? CDs? Why don't you listen to 78 LPs? Fashion is a powerful thing.

Hmm. I don't recall ever having an opportunity to buy 78s. I do have a
fairly respectable collection of vinyl albums, though. One household
innovation triggered by COVID was to begin playing one of those during
dinner time.

And speaking of rpm: I remember one evening, playing Vivaldi, I told my
wife "Wow, I don't like this performance. It seems rushed and screechy."
Then I realized the speed control lever had been bumped. I was playing a
33 rpm recording at 45 rpm.

Further BTW: I knew a young couple who, just for fun, bought an antique
hand-crank ... Victrola? Is that what they're called? Amplification only
by an acoustic horn - and with it, a collection of records. I suppose
those were 78s?

That illustrates a benefit of my vinyl. Given a straight pin and a paper
cup, I can get the music out even after the zombie apocalypse.


--
- Frank Krygowski