Lightning Cycle Dynamics P-38

"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...
Edward Dolan wrote:
[...]
Folks got the the P-38 because they thought they would be fast on it. The
fact is that you will not be all that fast on it and you will be
enormously more uncomfortable on it than you would on a properly laid
back seat with a medium height bottom bracket. But Lightning Cycles never
got anything right in its entire life. Furthermore, the Asian bitch that
communicated with prospective buyers was too dumb to be believed.[...]

Do you mean LeQuan Brummer (Tim's wife)?

Unfortunately, I can not repeat here some of the stories I have heard
about her responses to customer inquires.

Yes, I think you must be right about the above person. Tim Brummer is an
idiot for allowing such a moronic female to have anything to do with
customers. By and large, since LCD is still in business, I can't help but
think that many recumbent cyclists are not too smart when it comes to
dealing with manufacturers. Anyone to whom I am thinking of giving plus
$1000 had at least better be polite and courteous.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Edward Dolan wrote:
"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...
Edward Dolan wrote:
[...]
Folks got the the P-38 because they thought they would be fast on it. The
fact is that you will not be all that fast on it and you will be
enormously more uncomfortable on it than you would on a properly laid
back seat with a medium height bottom bracket. But Lightning Cycles never
got anything right in its entire life. Furthermore, the Asian bitch that
communicated with prospective buyers was too dumb to be believed.[...]
Do you mean LeQuan Brummer (Tim's wife)?

Unfortunately, I can not repeat here some of the stories I have heard
about her responses to customer inquires.

Yes, I think you must be right about the above person. Tim Brummer is an
idiot for allowing such a moronic female to have anything to do with
customers. By and large, since LCD is still in business, I can't help but
think that many recumbent cyclists are not too smart when it comes to
dealing with manufacturers. Anyone to whom I am thinking of giving plus
$1000 had at least better be polite and courteous.

My understanding is that Ms. Brummer is a former aerospace engineer.
Customer service training is not part of the requirements for that
occupation.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll

On Dec 2, 10:46*pm, Tom Sherman
wrote:
JimmyMac aka Jim McNamara wrote:

On Dec 1, 9:13 pm, Tom Sherman
wrote:
[...]The P-38 would be a good choice for urban riding [2], since
the upright position allows the rider to keep track of traffic in
addition to accelerating well, or for a ride with a lot of climbing
relative to flat areas (particularly those exposed to wind).

[1] And LCD really needs to offer a narrower seat for those who do not
have wide pelvises and shoulders.
[2] As long a fork that can take a reasonably wide ( 28-mm) front tire
is used, unless the rider is very light.

Tom ... a farr enough assessment, although I find riding into a stiff
headwind to be difficult in such an upright seating position

Jim misunderstands here - I was contending that the P-38 would be a good
bicycle for a place like SW Wisconsin where there is a lot of climbing,
but the trees and valley protect the rider from the wind.

I don't think I misunderstood. I was just considering the geography
where I mos often ride. You stated that the P-38 would be a good
choice for urban riding or for a ride with a lot of climbing relative
to flat areas (particularly those exposed to wind), the key operative
word being "OR". I agree that the P-38 is a good choice for an urban
recumbent, but as far as climbing goes, I find an upright superior to
any recumbent I've even ridden up hill. All I was trying to convey
though is that with such an upright seating position a stiff headwind
becomes a challenging. Many rollers that I've ridden in Wisconsin are
lined with farmer's fields and the wind is still remains a factor on
climbs. At least that's been my experience.

I quite agree about the front wheel. *It didn't take me long to dump the
small 349mm/16in for a larger 406mm/20in. *Retro fitted with a
Ballistic BMX suspension fork and running wider tires proved to be a
good combination.

The tires available for the ISO 349-mm size, such as the 32-349 Primo
Comet are really not suitable for an average weight adult, and should
only be used by shorter stature riders that need the small front wheel.
Similarly, the LCD fork that only accepts narrow tires should be avoided
by all but light riders on smooth roads.

Agreed. The Primo Comet is so poor as to be unsafe at almost any
speed. The changes I made to fork, rim and tires improved the bike
measurably.

Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll

"JimmyMac" wrote in message
...
On Dec 2, 10:46 pm, Tom Sherman
wrote:
JimmyMac aka Jim McNamara wrote:

On Dec 1, 9:13 pm, Tom Sherman
wrote:
[...]The P-38 would be a good choice for urban riding [2], since
the upright position allows the rider to keep track of traffic in
addition to accelerating well, or for a ride with a lot of climbing
relative to flat areas (particularly those exposed to wind).

[1] And LCD really needs to offer a narrower seat for those who do not
have wide pelvises and shoulders.
[2] As long a fork that can take a reasonably wide ( 28-mm) front tire
is used, unless the rider is very light.

Tom ... a farr enough assessment, although I find riding into a stiff
headwind to be difficult in such an upright seating position

Jim misunderstands here - I was contending that the P-38 would be a good
bicycle for a place like SW Wisconsin where there is a lot of climbing,
but the trees and valley protect the rider from the wind.

I don't think I misunderstood. I was just considering the geography
where I most often ride. You stated that the P-38 would be a good
choice for urban riding or for a ride with a lot of climbing relative
to flat areas (particularly those exposed to wind), the key operative
word being "OR". I agree that the P-38 is a good choice for an urban
recumbent, but as far as climbing goes, I find an upright superior to
any recumbent I've ever ridden up hill. All I was trying to convey
though is that with such an upright seating position a stiff headwind
becomes a challenging. Many rollers that I've ridden in Wisconsin are
lined with farmer's fields and the wind is still remains a factor on
climbs. At least that's been my experience.

Jim is quite right about uprights being far superior to any recumbent when
it comes to climbing hills. However, I think a low bottom bracket recumbent
is better for urban cycling since you will often have to stop and put your
feet down in various congested traffic situations. A low bottom bracket
recumbent is better for that.

I quite agree about the front wheel. It didn't take me long to dump the
small 349mm/16in for a larger 406mm/20in. Retro fitted with a
Ballistic BMX suspension fork and running wider tires proved to be a
good combination.

The tires available for the ISO 349-mm size, such as the 32-349 Primo
Comet are really not suitable for an average weight adult, and should
only be used by shorter stature riders that need the small front wheel.
Similarly, the LCD fork that only accepts narrow tires should be avoided
by all but light riders on smooth roads.

Agreed. The Primo Comet is so poor as to be unsafe at almost any
speed. The changes I made to fork, rim and tires improved the bike
measurably.

I have to laugh! I never got so many flats in my life as when I had those
Primo Comet tires on my Vision. One day on GRABAAWR I got 4 flats and just
about went crazy from the frustration of it all. I decided then and there
that more hardy tires were well worth the cost of not being quite so fast.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...
Edward Dolan wrote:
"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...
Edward Dolan wrote:
[...]
Folks got the the P-38 because they thought they would be fast on it.
The fact is that you will not be all that fast on it and you will be
enormously more uncomfortable on it than you would on a properly laid
back seat with a medium height bottom bracket. But Lightning Cycles
never got anything right in its entire life. Furthermore, the Asian
bitch that communicated with prospective buyers was too dumb to be
believed.[...]
Do you mean LeQuan Brummer (Tim's wife)?

Unfortunately, I can not repeat here some of the stories I have heard
about her responses to customer inquires.

Yes, I think you must be right about the above person. Tim Brummer is an
idiot for allowing such a moronic female to have anything to do with
customers. By and large, since LCD is still in business, I can't help but
think that many recumbent cyclists are not too smart when it comes to
dealing with manufacturers. Anyone to whom I am thinking of giving $1000
had at least better be polite and courteous.

My understanding is that Ms. Brummer is a former aerospace engineer.
Customer service training is not part of the requirements for that
occupation.

Even so, there is something drastically wrong with the way her brain
functions. You may think I am one contentious *******, but I would never
behave like she did with a customer. You do not need any training for this.
You just need to have some common courtesy, something that you learn from
your parents and your elders as a child.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

On Dec 2, 5:13*pm, "Edward Dolan" wrote:
"JimmyMac" wrote in message

...
On Dec 2, 2:32 pm, "Edward Dolan" wrote:

"JimmyMac" wrote in message

...
[...]

Tom ... a fair enough assessment, although I find riding into a stiff
headwind to be difficult in such an upright seating position. I
quite agree about the front wheel. It didn't take me long to dump the
small 349mm/16in for a larger 406mm/20in. Retro fitted with a
Ballistic BMX suspension fork and running wider tires proved to be a
good combination.

Your seating position on the P-38 is not much of an improvement over your
seating position on an upright.
You of course meant to qaulify that with ... MY OPINION.

This newsgroup is fortunate indeed to have an opinion from One so Great as
Myself! I ought to be charging a hefty fee for it.

Although yours is an opinion that few respect, you mustn't allow that
to dissuade you from appending your egocentric, delusional signature
to your superfluous posts!

They are both uncomfortable in the extreme.
More unqualified opinion state as fact? *I ride 5000-7000 miles a year

in a 7-8 month riding season, but not in extreme discomfort??? *If I
found my riding position to be uncomfortable in the extreme, I
wouldn't do that much riding. *You know nothing about my upright which
is a comfortable bike. *As for my recumbent, I replaced the seat chord
with electrical ties and replaced the original foam (closed cell I
think) pad with a self-inflating open cell foam pad that I top off
with a bit more air. *This combination makes for a very comfortable
seat.

No way anyone can be comfortable sitting in an upright position. After a few
hours, your backside will ache.

Emphatic, but errant opinion stated as fact. When Dolan is possessed
of neither knowledge nor experience to draw upon to formulate a
conclusion that doesn't deter him from exercising common sense ...
rabidly driven to run his mouth and publicly put his ignorance on
display to his own embarrassment. I have scoliosis and after early
season acclimation manage to do just fine.

All a larger front wheel does is raise the bottom bracket, thereby
insuring foot numbness.
You of course meant to qualify that with ... MY OPINION. *ALL, you

assert??? *What a larger front wheel also does is negotiate potholes
better and provide a more comfortable ride on tires that will last
longer among other things, but you seem to know it all so why should I
continue to preach to the choir. *INSURING NUMBNESS??? *Perhaps I
should contact Lightning Cycle Dynamics and pitch a bitch then as I
have been deprived of an experience that I apparently paid for but
have missed out on. *Maybe you are confusing bottom bracket height
with that cheap rotgut red wine you drink as the cause of your foot
numbness which appears now to have progressed to your head.

About 25% of all cyclists will experience foot numbness if the bottom
bracket is too high.

Not 24%? Not 26%. Just where does Dolan obtain his statistics
from ... inquisitve minds want to know??? Acceptin (an I'm not), that
25% suffer from foot numness, perhap Dolan, in reference to high
bottom brackets, should not have used the word "insure" then should
he?

Finally, speed isn't everything on any kind of a bike.
Comfort counts for far more since it means you will be able to ride longer
and further.
Correct me if I am wrong here, but you introduced the topic of speed

when, in reference to my P-38, you emphatically, but incorrectly,
asserted of *me ... He thought he would be fast on it. *I never
contended that speed is everything on a bike, if that is what you're
implying. *I merely pointed out that I am capable of generating what
you are not ... speed, if an when I so desire to. *I agree that
comfort is very important and you left out another ... safety. *As far
as riding longer and further is concerned ... *at age 50, I rode my
upright quite comfortably on an organized century (100 miler) in 4
hours 43 minutes, averaging 21 mph, so one can ride long and far
without having to suffer discomfort and one can do so at a fast pace
provided the body is acclimated to the riding position and one has a
fit "engine". *Comfort in and of itself is no guarantee that one will
be able to ride longer and/or further.

Folks got the the P-38 because they thought they would be fast on it.

Is it possible for you to ever state an opinion (read assertion) as an
opinion and a bit less emphatically. Almost every one of your
assertions are stated definitively as dogma. Not ALL folks got the
P-38 because they thought they would be fast even though the P-38 had
that reputation and appeal. There are lot of attributes to recommend
it beyond speed. You considered buying one and you couldn't go fast
on anything that you have to pedal.

The
fact is that you will not be all that fast on it and you will be enormously
more uncomfortable on it than you would on properly laid back seat with a
medium height bottom bracket.

The seat on the P-38 is not fixed and can be laid back. The P-38 can
and has been ridden fast and in comfort. Lacking first had
experience, upon what do you base your disinformation?

But Lightning Cycles never got anything right
in its entire life.

Not more unsubstantiated dogmatic opinion. You need to rectify this
or no one will ever pay any attention to anything you say.

Furthermore, the Asian bitch that communicated with
prospective buyers was too dumb to be believed.

There is nothing quite like an insensitive bigot.

Finally, you can ride a bike all day and all night if you are comfortable on
it. Anyone who cannot do this has missed the boat. They have sacrificed
comfort for speed, never a good tradeoff.

I presume then that you missed the boat. I put in a significant
number of miles and and ge pretty fit and I wouldn't say that I could
ride all day and all night as you claim in your inimitable unqualified
style (read dogmatic uncorroborated opinion stated as fact). More
than mere comfort is a required to ride all day and all night. I
suspect that only properly trained ultra marathon endurance cyclists
can ride all day and all night. Another thing ... comfort cannot be
sacrificed for speed. In order to go fast one still has to have some
degree of comfort. A super time trial bike that was faster on paper
and in wind tunnel testing proved to be slower when ridden by Lance
Armstrong. Why ... because he was not comfortable on the super time
trial bike.

If you insist upon speaking ex cathedra, then why not become a pope!

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

On Dec 3, 7:20*pm, "Edward Dolan" wrote:
"JimmyMac" wrote in message

...
On Dec 2, 10:46 pm, Tom Sherman
wrote:



JimmyMac aka Jim McNamara wrote:

On Dec 1, 9:13 pm, Tom Sherman
wrote:
[...]The P-38 would be a good choice for urban riding [2], since
the upright position allows the rider to keep track of traffic in
addition to accelerating well, or for a ride with a lot of climbing
relative to flat areas (particularly those exposed to wind).

[1] And LCD really needs to offer a narrower seat for those who do not
have wide pelvises and shoulders.
[2] As long a fork that can take a reasonably wide ( 28-mm) front tire
is used, unless the rider is very light.

Tom ... a fair enough assessment, although I find riding into a stiff
headwind to be difficult in such an upright seating position

Jim misunderstands here - I was contending that the P-38 would be a good
bicycle for a place like SW Wisconsin where there is a lot of climbing,
but the trees and valley protect the rider from the wind.
I don't think I misunderstood. *I was just considering the geography

where I most often ride. * You stated that the P-38 would be a good
choice for urban riding or for a ride with a lot of climbing relative
to flat areas (particularly those exposed to wind), the key operative
word being "OR". *I agree that the P-38 is a good choice for an urban
recumbent, but as far as climbing goes, I find an upright superior to
any recumbent I've ever ridden up hill. *All I was trying to convey
though is that with such an upright seating position a stiff headwind
becomes a challenging. *Many rollers that I've ridden in Wisconsin are
lined with farmer's fields and the wind is still remains a factor on
climbs. *At least that's been my experience.

Jim is quite right about uprights being far superior to any recumbent when
it comes to climbing hills. However, I think a low bottom bracket recumbent
is better for urban cycling since you will often have to stop and put your
feet down in various congested traffic situations. A low bottom bracket
recumbent is better for that.

I have a 35 inch inseam so putting my feet down is not a problem for
me.

I quite agree about the front wheel. It didn't take me long to dump the
small 349mm/16in for a larger 406mm/20in. Retro fitted with a
Ballistic BMX suspension fork and running wider tires proved to be a
good combination.

The tires available for the ISO 349-mm size, such as the 32-349 Primo
Comet are really not suitable for an average weight adult, and should
only be used by shorter stature riders that need the small front wheel.
Similarly, the LCD fork that only accepts narrow tires should be avoided
by all but light riders on smooth roads.
Agreed. *The Primo Comet is so poor as to be unsafe at almost any

speed. *The changes I made to fork, rim and tires improved the bike
measurably.

I have to laugh! I never got so many flats in my life as when I had those
Primo Comet tires on my Vision. One day on GRABAAWR I got 4 flats and just
about went crazy from the frustration of it all. *I decided then and there
that more hardy tires were well worth the cost of not being quite so fast..

I fount the Avocet FasGrip Freestyle tires to be a reliable and fast
tire. I hate to sound Dolan like here, but the Primo Comet tire is
horrible, then again many would agree with me who have likne myself
experieced them first hand.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

"JimmyMac" wrote in message
...
On Dec 2, 5:13 pm, "Edward Dolan" wrote:
[...]
No way anyone can be comfortable sitting in an upright position. After a
few
hours, your backside will ache.

Emphatic, but errant opinion stated as fact. When Dolan is possessed
of neither knowledge nor experience to draw upon to formulate a
conclusion that doesn't deter him from exercising common sense ...
rabidly driven to run his mouth and publicly put his ignorance on
display to his own embarrassment. I have scoliosis and after early
season acclimation manage to do just fine.

Get a proper recumbent with a laid back seat and you will do even "finer".
By the way, I have a world of experience (30 years) with both uprights and
recumbents. Even Tom Sherman likes a laid back seat.
[...]

Folks got the the P-38 because they thought they would be fast on it.

Is it possible for you to ever state an opinion (read assertion) as an
opinion and a bit less emphatically. Almost every one of your
assertions are stated definitively as dogma. Not ALL folks got the
P-38 because they thought they would be fast even though the P-38 had
that reputation and appeal. There are lot of attributes to recommend
it beyond speed. You considered buying one and you couldn't go fast
on anything that you have to pedal.

There is nothing to recommend the P-38 beyond speed. It is uncomfortable
because of the upright seat position. Most sensible folks get recumbents for
comfort, not for speed.
[...]

Finally, you can ride a bike all day and all night if you are comfortable
on
it. Anyone who cannot do this has missed the boat. They have sacrificed
comfort for speed, never a good tradeoff.

I presume then that you missed the boat. I put in a significant
number of miles and and ge pretty fit and I wouldn't say that I could
ride all day and all night as you claim in your inimitable unqualified
style (read dogmatic uncorroborated opinion stated as fact). More
than mere comfort is a required to ride all day and all night. I
suspect that only properly trained ultra marathon endurance cyclists
can ride all day and all night. Another thing ... comfort cannot be
sacrificed for speed. In order to go fast one still has to have some
degree of comfort. A super time trial bike that was faster on paper
and in wind tunnel testing proved to be slower when ridden by Lance
Armstrong. Why ... because he was not comfortable on the super time
trial bike.

You wouldn't last more than a few days on a week long cross state tour on
your upright. You might last on your P-38 but you would last even better on
my Vision.

If you insist upon speaking ex cathedra, then why not become a pope!

God Damn It ... I am far Greater than the Pope. I am a Great Saint and the
Pope is merely the Pope.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Edward Dolan wrote:
[...]
Get a proper recumbent with a laid back seat and you will do even "finer".
By the way, I have a world of experience (30 years) with both uprights and
recumbents. Even Tom Sherman likes a laid back seat.
[...]

I like a seat between 30 and 40° from the horizontal, in conjunction
with a bottom bracket between 15 and 25 cm above the seat.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll

On Dec 3, 9:42*pm, "Edward Dolan" wrote:
"JimmyMac" wrote in message

...
On Dec 2, 5:13 pm, "Edward Dolan" wrote:
[...]

No way anyone can be comfortable sitting in an upright position. After a
few
hours, your backside will ache.
Emphatic, but errant opinion stated as fact. *When Dolan is possessed

of neither knowledge nor experience to draw upon to formulate a
conclusion that doesn't deter him from exercising common sense ...
rabidly driven to run his mouth and publicly put his ignorance on
display to his own embarrassment. *I have scoliosis and after early
season acclimation manage to do just fine.

Get a proper recumbent with a laid back seat and you will do even "finer"..
By the way, I have a world of experience (30 years) with both uprights and
recumbents. Even Tom Sherman likes a laid back seat.
[...]

So then, the P-38 is not proper recumbent ... IN YOUR OPINION (you
again neglected to qualify)? I have 50+ years of experience riding
uprights and 10+ years of experience riding recumbents but just how
much experience do you have riding a P-38 since that is the recumbent
you are disrespectfully expounding about? I too like a laid back
seating position and, using a clock as a point of reference, I would
estimate my seat angle to be right at or about 35 degrees, so the
position of my seat it is not all that upright.

Folks got the the P-38 because they thought they would be fast on it.
Is it possible for you to ever state an opinion (read assertion) as an

opinion and a bit less emphatically. *Almost every one of your
assertions are stated definitively as dogma. *Not ALL folks got the
P-38 because they thought they would be fast even though the P-38 had
that reputation and appeal. *There are lot of attributes to recommend
it beyond speed. *You considered buying one and you couldn't go fast
on anything that you have to pedal.

There is nothing to recommend the P-38 beyond speed.

OK, I will ask again ... Is it possible for you to ever state an
opinion (read assertion) as an opinion and a bit less emphatically?
There is nothing to recommend your opinion until you provide a
reasonable, acceptable explanation. Tom Sherman who you have often
cited as a recumbent guru had some very positive things to say about
the P-38. If I were to buy another recumbent, I'd give the titanium
Rotator Tiger and titanium Bacchetta Aero a serious look.

It is uncomfortable because of the upright seat position. Most sensible folks get recumbents for comfort, not for speed.

You meant in your opinion of course. Since I have my seat adjusted to
approximately 35 degrees of tilt, with some additional latitude
remaining to provide an even more laid back position, I am left to
assume that your your persistent babbling about the P-38 being
uncomfortable due to its upright seating position is just so much
irrelevant, indefensible, disinformation, so feel free to stop
babbling about something you know little about in order to spare
yourself further embarrassment.

Finally, you can ride a bike all day and all night if you are comfortable
on
it. Anyone who cannot do this has missed the boat. They have sacrificed
comfort for speed, never a good tradeoff.
I presume then that you missed the boat. *I put in a significant

number of miles and and get pretty fit and I wouldn't say that I could
ride all day and all night as you claim in your inimitable unqualified
style (read dogmatic uncorroborated opinion stated as fact). *More
than mere comfort is a required to ride all day and all night. *I
suspect that only properly trained ultra marathon endurance cyclists
can ride all day and all night. *Another thing ... comfort cannot be
sacrificed for speed. *In order to go fast one still has to have some
degree of comfort. *A super time trial bike that was faster on paper
and in wind tunnel testing proved to be slower when ridden by Lance
Armstrong. *Why ... because he was not comfortable on the super time
trial bike.

You wouldn't last more than a few days on a week long cross state tour on
your upright. You might last on your P-38 but you would last even better on
my Vision.

Says who ... know nothing Dolan? When are you going to begin
qualifying your unsubstantiated errant opinions. Even three simple
letters will suffice ...IMO. You can leave out the "H" since you are
anything but HUMBLE. Understand that something is not a FACT just
because you say so. I will grant you that a long distance ride is
more comfortable on a recumbent, but I can also tell you that I rode
465 miles in four days in single digit wind chills on my upright, so I
think I would be up to the challenge of a week long cross state tour
on my bike of choosing. You know nothing of my riding capabilities,
just like you know little about the P-38.

If you insist upon speaking ex cathedra, then why not become a pope!

God Damn It ... I am far Greater than the Pope. I am a Great Saint and the
Pope is merely the Pope.

Oh you are of a higher order ... that order being the order of
obnoxious, opinionated, jerks. Your posts satnd in testimony. Most
have a familiar underlying self-serving egotistical suspect message
reminiscent of ... I'm the government and I'm here to help you. The
fact, is this forum and for that matter this planet will be a better
place with your passage. You'll not be missed nor mourned.

* Regards,



Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota