Why is Shimano so hated by some?

"Chalo" wrote:

Shimano make equipment to serve the most easily accomodated 80% of
users, while ignoring the rest.


Arthur Harris wrote:
How's that? Shimano takes care of the racers, the tourists, the MTBers, and
even the fishermen!

Armstrong and about half of the pro peloton are using Shimano. Are you
saying they are not particular about the equipment they use?

Picture what the cycling marketplace would be like if Shimano got out of the
business. You think Campy is expensive now?!

Expensive??
Even after the Euro increase, Campagnolo is still cheaper at
every level than Shimano for new equipment. The $600 gap
from Chorus to DA will be $450 next year. If you factor
maintenance costs there's a wider gap.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

In article ,
says...

"David Kerber" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...
Where do you think they got the idea for Windows, with mice as input
devices? As far as I know, they never bought Xerox!

i thought ms only got their windows s/w to work after help from the
"athena project" [x windows] folks at m.i.t?

I don't know about getting it to actually work, but from what I read
somewhere, they got the original idea from a demo at Xerox PARC.


No - that was the Apple guys - they got the idea for LISA from PARC. That
was too expensive and didn't break through.

Ok. I might have been mixed up.


The Machintosh then came along and was very successful.

Windows was then developed from there, and Windows NT development was

Are you sure about this time line? Windows certainly pre-dated the Mac,
though I'm less sure about the earlier Apple versions. Remember that
Windows 2.11 (the first semi-useful version) came out around the late
80's.


started in conjunction with IBM - OS2 and Windows NT both came out of this
project.

So, Windows was a copy of the Apple OS, but Microsoft did want to license
the product to start with. Apple copied the idea from PARC.

All the best,

Tim


--
Dave Kerber
Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

In article ,
says...
"Chalo" wrote:

Shimano make equipment to serve the most easily accomodated 80% of
users, while ignoring the rest.


Arthur Harris wrote:
How's that? Shimano takes care of the racers, the tourists, the MTBers, and
even the fishermen!

Armstrong and about half of the pro peloton are using Shimano. Are you
saying they are not particular about the equipment they use?

Picture what the cycling marketplace would be like if Shimano got out of the
business. You think Campy is expensive now?!

Expensive??
Even after the Euro increase, Campagnolo is still cheaper at
every level than Shimano for new equipment. The $600 gap
from Chorus to DA will be $450 next year. If you factor
maintenance costs there's a wider gap.

Shouldn't DA be compared to Record rather than chorus? Then the price
comparison would be the other direction.

--
Dave Kerber
Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

David wrote in message ahoo.dsafds.com...
In article , Evan Evans
wrote:

As a frequent visitor to this group. I've noticed that there are a few
posters who use this as a platform to steer people against the use of
Shimano components. What's wrong with Shimano?

I am happy with any bicycle component maker that I can afford to buy
with my hard earned money. Shimano is no exception..

I find that Shimano's quality of workmanship even with their lower end
components are always better than the cheaper generic replacements. I
ride a lot each year, so generic stuff just don't last as long as
Shimano's equivalent. So for me, I don't complain about Shimano's
pricing.. The old saying still holds true -- You always get what
you've paid for.

But most of the Shimano's complaint has been centered around their well
known STI finite lifespan.. However, you've got to look at the
perspective that Shimano sells a lot of these STIs compared to
Campagnolo with their Ergos, so even a 1% return (factory defect) for
Shimano, the number will ALWAYS be larger than Campagnolo. Ofcourse,
people hate returning back with their bikes to the shop for repairs.
Usually, they do not want to resolve the issues with their dealers or
with Shimano in a nice and professional manner -- usually ends up
either in a shouting match or an ultimatum. If the issues can not be
resolved to the customers' satisfaction, some customers may opt to vent
their frustration here. Again, since there are more Shimano owners
than say SRAM, Campagnolo, Modolo shifters probably combined, you are
bound to get people advising you here against the use of Shimano
components.

I have used Shimano stuff in the past and have always been happy with
it. A few times, things do not work out but I always go back to my
LBS, inquire nicely and usually get the problem resolved.
I use Shimano stuff because it is widely available and they are
affordable. I have only gone Campy Ergo and Dura-Ace combo recently
because I happened to get them CHEAPER (50-70%) than what my LBS can
sell me and replacement STIs were out of my price range.
But I am not emotionally mad when my STIs kicked the bucket, as I
realized things do break. Yes, STIs are not serviceable, but then many
old digital cameras and old computers out there are not economically
serviceable either.
I like to think that we cyclists are mature people and I hope we are..



Some people hate Shimano because some people are only happy when they're miserable.

The Mac and eventually Windows copied the idea of a GUI, but neither of
these operating systems became a real multi-user operating system until
much much later. That strain propagated through X, Unices, and (I hate
to admit it) VMS, until it finally returned to PC/Mac operating systems,
which I understand now sometimes don't even fall down every third day.
The gurus behind X and Athena were very familiar with the Xerox machines,
Lisp Machines, and other expressions of PARC-influenced GUIs and network
protocols (X is at least as much a network protocol as it is a windowing
system).

Now I feel like an absolute dinosaur ranting about what Faliero Masi
had for lunch the day in 1971 he brazed a seatlug on frame number 17 ...

is windoze a multi-user system? ;p

rant away... it great to hear from dinosaur's on stuff like this.

"Tim McNamara" wrote in message
...

Ummm, yup. That was part of my point. Unless Campagnolo has reversed
its price policies of many years, the Italian stuff costs more at the
same level than Shimano.

Hmm. Not really. If you look at the prices for groups or parts alone, they're
pretty much the same for like quality, with Campy sometimes having the
advantage. But bike makers do seem to charge more for Campy equipped bikes.

Matt O.

"David Kerber" wrote in message
...

Shouldn't DA be compared to Record rather than chorus? Then the price
comparison would be the other direction.

I dunno. Which is more expensive and better quality, a Ferrari, an Aston
Martin, or a Lamborghini?

Matt O.

-snip much interesting stuff-
David Kerber wrote:
Are you sure about this time line? Windows certainly pre-dated the Mac,
though I'm less sure about the earlier Apple versions. Remember that
Windows 2.11 (the first semi-useful version) came out around the late
80's.

I just looked at our original Windows setup discs dated
1985. Win286 are dated 1987.

I recall using a PARC demo but that was definitely after we
had color (EGA) screens and mice here. Seemed much more
sophisticated IIRC because the mouse movements were smoother
- buffered somehow(?) It was much higher resolution than
the Windows of the era, albeit BW only.

GF of the era's computer was a Mac certainly before we had
the first Windows. ( BTW her job was Wang supervisor -
remember Wang?)
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

-snip interesting-
In article ,
Even after the Euro increase, Campagnolo is still cheaper at
every level than Shimano for new equipment. The $600 gap
from Chorus to DA will be $450 next year. If you factor
maintenance costs there's a wider gap.

David Kerber wrote:
Shouldn't DA be compared to Record rather than chorus? Then the price
comparison would be the other direction.

OK that is arguable. But CHR and DA use comparable (cold
forged aluminum) construction, REC being extensively ti and
carbon now - rather a "super-professional" level. But I see
your point.

(look at CEN to Ultegra for another comparable-level price
split.)

Alex Santini, Campagnolo's colorful export director in the
early '80s used to say "We make three quality levels, for
the amateur, the professional and the doctor."

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

A Muzi writes:

Even after the Euro increase, Campagnolo is still cheaper at every
level than Shimano for new equipment. The $600 gap from Chorus to DA
will be $450 next year. If you factor maintenance costs there's a
wider gap.

Except that Chorus and Dura-Ace are not in equivalent positions in
their respective product lines. The Campy equivalent of Dura-Ace is
Record; Chorus is the equivalent of Ultegra, etc.

That said, I races on 1993 Chorus for 5 years and 1998 Chorus for 2
years, and found both superior to the Ultegra that preceded them. I
personally think that Chorus is the equivalent in quality of
Dura-Ace, but the Campy and Shimano groups should really be compared
by equivalent position.